Looking for recommendations for a late-night listening system

EricLeRouge

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Hello, I am looking for advice / recommendations on a secondary system for late-night / low-level (below 50dB) music and movies.

I live in an apartment in a very old house and as I listen to music late at night, I am increasingly reluctant to use headphones. My living room/listening room is about 35 sqm, with a 3.7m high ceiling.

I am now looking for a second system that would sound good, and hopefully look good, for late-night listening and listening in the background during the day.

The music I listen to ranges from jazz, electronica, opera, classical, but very little amplified rock. I am looking for a detailed, musical, something easy to live with and kind of keep in the background.

If I try to describe my goal in my own terms, I think I am looking for something that can literally disappear against the wall and 'fill the room' with music (musical is more important than realistic or resolving) even at very low levels, and yet still have good center imaging for watching TV or movies when I want to (the speakers would obviously be placed on each side of the screen).

I guess it describes a 'lifestyle' system more than an audiophile system, although audio quality should be evident and non-fatiguing even over long periods of listening, even if I want to turn the volume up (some Bose systems make good background wallpaper music but do not sound good at moderate levels in my experience).

Note - I already have a resolving, full-bodied system that I like and which works for me, only it does not really 'lighten up' below 60 dB), and then it becomes almost 'too' resolving. I also have headphones, wired and wireless, and I want something that sounds good and enables me to walk around the room freely.

On the wishlist - Ideally the amp/receiver should have a good quality integrated DAC which supports DSD on USB or HDMI (I have ripped my music to high resolution PCM to DSD64), be able to drive 2 pairs of speakers (in case I want to use a separate set of speakers for daytime listening). If it doesn't have a DAC, it should at least have a remote control.

I already own a DAC (two, in fact) of decent quality so if the built-in DAC is average, I'd rather invest in the amp section and use my DACs instead. Some people say that built-in DACs these days are as good as separate DACs of 10-15 years ago, so I guess I am open to trying new things.

I don't need a phono input, as I already have a very decent phono pre (Audiomat) which works fine for me.

For amps, my research leads me towards the more recent Yamaha or Technics lines of integrated amps, and the budgets are (almost) reasonable. The top of the line Technics model (SU-R1000) would be of interest, but it is too expensive for me. In terms of pure-analog integrated amps, Luxman L550 AXII or Accuphase E280 would be on the high side for me, so I would hope to find something slightly less expensive.

A class A integrated amp with high efficiency wall speakers is probably one option, if I can find a good combination.

Hegel is a name that is often mentioned by reviewers, but I am not sure Hegel would have the 'musical' or kind of late-night sound that I am looking for. However, if there is a well-established synergy with some wall speakers and Hegel amp, why not.

Note = If the amp is detailed and musical, it can eventually take center stage and help me simplify my system, so I am flexible regarding the budget (within reason).

As for the speakers, I have heard many times that high-efficiency speakers are ideal for late-night listening, but all I can find is Klipsch and they are big speakers and usually quite bass-heavy.

I have identified some 'wall' speakers (Jean-Marie Raynaud EMP Nano, but I am sure there are others), and I like the idea of on-wall speakers because I don't want to clutter my living room with yet more speakers (I have one, and sometimes two, pairs of floorstanders and a pair of LS50W on stands which take up a lot of space).

My ideal budget for an integrated amp, speakers and cables would be in the €5-6K range, although if there is a real benefit in stretching to 7K that would be possible.

If I have to stretch out to 10k but that would mean disposing of my other gear, so it would really need to be a great system combination.

If some of you have recommendations or suggestions (ideally, of products you are using or have used for some time), I would be very interested.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Happy holiday season to all.
 
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twinkletoes

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I won't lie i haven't read your whole post it's rather long LOL but I get the gist. Some of the brands you mention I've never heard so can't pass judgement.

Stuff that works at a low volume that sound full. and that's the difference not everything sounds full some products the tweeter is just making noise.

Brands that's i have used on extensive loan and owned amps don't really come into it really.

Owned- Revel really good low listening capabilities specifically the m106 nice and full sounding

Loaned- PMC 20 series about average not to write home about, bass can be sent through the floor due to the design.

Loaned ATC - passive forget about it not only do you need lots of power they just like to be turned up, some will say otherwise but trust me stay away from them for low-level listening. Active is a different story though.

loaned B&W 705 much the revels very close in fact just the top end was tad sparkly

These were all tested with a naim 202 and 250 combo.

Currently, i have the below system and it will be a system I keep for many years me its end game, i don't have the urge to upgrade anymore.

Sugden a21sig, Klipsch Hersey 3, a very old NAD c540 sounds fine, chord qutest, technics 1200g with a bronze cart but still testing out phono pre's.

This system sounds full at low volumes i only have to tweak the volume knob off the 6 o'clock and it will sound fantastic, the class-A nature of the Sugden makes the speakers sound sweet but that's not to say it's undynamic. This setup will rock your world if you want it to id certainly give it a listen
 
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EricLeRouge

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I won't lie i haven't read your whole post it's rather long LOL but I get the gist. Some of the brands you mention I've never heard so can't pass judgement.

Stuff that works at a low volume that sound full. and that's the difference not everything sounds full some products the tweeter is just making noise.

Brands that's i have used on extensive loan and owned amps don't really come into it really.

Owned- Revel really good low listening capabilities specifically the m106 nice and full sounding

Loaned- PMC 20 series about average not to write home about, bass can be sent through the floor due to the design.

Loaned ATC - passive forget about it not only do you need lots of power they just like to be turned up, some will say otherwise but trust me stay away from them for low-level listening. Active is a different story though.

loaned B&W 705 much the revels very close in fact just the top end was tad sparkly

These were all tested with a naim 202 and 250 combo.

Currently, i have the below system and it will be a system I keep for many years me its ends, i don't have the urge to upgrade any more.

Sugden a21sig, klipsch hesey 3, a very old NAD c540 sounds fine, chord qutest, technics 1200g with a brozn cart but still test out phono pre's.

This system sounds full at low volumes i only have to tweak the volume knob off the 6 o'clock and it will sound fantastic, the class-A nature of the Sugden makes the speakers sound sweet but that's not to say it's undynamic. This setup will rock your world if you want it to id certainly give it a listen

Many thanks - Sugden A21 Signature + Klipsch Heresy sounds interesting. I would have to find room for the Heresy but the matching sounds good (not sure how it would sound with opera, but I'll definitely check it out).

The other elements you mention also make sense, I know some of them (Chord Qutest, Technics 1200 g and an Ortofon bronze all make sense)

Thanks!
 
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EricLeRouge

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My choice for low level listening of the kind you describe, and with your budget, would be to investigate Sugden and Audio Note, with some very sensitive speakers.

Thanks, makes sense, I had forgotten Sugden so I'll probably investigate those options.
I have no knowledge of Audio Note, so I'll try to find a dealer who can recommend associated component.

THanks!
 

twinkletoes

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Many thanks - Sugden A21 Signature + Klipsch Heresy sounds interesting. I would have to find room for the Heresy but the matching sounds good (not sure how it would sound with opera, but I'll definitely check it out).

The other elements you mention also make sense, I know some of them (Chord Qutest, Technics 1200 g and an Ortofon bronze all make sense)

Thanks!

Should sound fine with opera, I find the Klipsch sound fantastic with anything natural/organic in nature eg live bands/real instruments see how you go.
 
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Timbola

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How do Harbeth speakers fair at low-level listening? I have them in mind at performing well in this regard (and a popular match with Sugden) but not had chance to base this on personal experience.
 
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WayneKerr

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How do Harbeth speakers fair at low-level listening? I have them in mind at performing well in this regard (and a popular match with Sugden) but not had chance to base this on personal experience.
I've got the P3's. Main difference I noticed at low levels was a more ballsy amp to drive them. Whilst they're good at lower levels I find they really get into their sweetspot around 75dB peak.
 
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EricLeRouge

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Some very very efficient speakers and an amp with a loudness control....
not too sure why the idea of Class A is mentioned.
a subwoofer might help.
That or headphones..... :)

I mentioned Class A because a typical Class A will perform well from the first watt up (tubes even more, but I know nothing about tubes and I want a fire-and-forget system, not yet more complexity in my house).

I already have a decent amp, a subwoofer (an old REL) two pairs of floorstanders and a LS50W that can be tuned to a very cool level of loudness, and customised with a tube DAC and good cables. But in this case I want something simple, that works out of the box, and that can play late at night. Two people mentioned Sugden, I guess I'll have to check the match with Klipsch Heresy III or IV, in terms of budget that is about the maximum I was prepared to consider, but why not. I was hoping to find something with a built-in dac, but that's maybe another stretch in terms of budget.

As for headphones, as I said, I have several, and I got tired of using those. I sometimes use the Bose Frames for wireless late night TV and movies, and it feels great to have a decent sound without anything on your ears (other than a pair of glasses). While those have very little bass content, they have a very decent sound for casual listening, and in particular television.

Bottomline; There is no way I am going back to cans or in-ear now, so a high efficiency system is what I am after.
 

EricLeRouge

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I've got the P3's. Main difference I noticed at low levels was a more ballsy amp to drive them. Whilst they're good at lower levels I find they really get into their sweetspot around 75dB peak.


Since you mentioned Harbeth P3s, I looked them up and found a shootout on 6moons which compares the Harbeth to the Klipsch Heresy — I am not sure I understand everything the reviewer says (I guess she bought the Harbeth twice!), but I think the Heresy would be an easier match for low-level listening.
 

WayneKerr

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Since you mentioned Harbeth P3s, I looked them up and found a shootout on 6moons which compares the Harbeth to the Klipsch Heresy — I am not sure I understand everything the reviewer says (I guess she bought the Harbeth twice!), but I think the Heresy would be an easier match for low-level listening.
I really do detest reviews like this with such flowery language, I prefer straight talking. It does look like the P3's were purchased twice... many do suffer sellers regret and end up purchasing again :)

Good luck in your search (y)
 
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matthewpianist

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I really do detest reviews like this with such flowery language, I prefer straight talking. It does look like the P3's were purchased twice... many do suffer sellers regret and end up purchasing again :)

Good luck in your search (y)

I did that with the Leaks. I sold my first CDT and Stereo 130 at the beginning of the year, and regretted as soon as I was packing them up. Now I've ended up with new ones after trying other things.
 

suburbansky

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I would have suggested a Tube amp... but as you stated, that isn't an option for you. My Triangle Borea BR09 are quite efficient, compared to similar ranges of competing brands, and I feel they perform well at low volumes. (Don't know whether Triangles are generally efficient, though.) Klipsch is certainly a good idea, too.... I'd love to have a pair of Heresys myself.
 
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robdmarsh

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50 db and below you say? According to the sound meter app on my phone, this is pretty much whisper quiet. I've heard, however, that these apps are incredibly inaccurate. When I'm playing music at night at 60 db I know it's low enough not to be disturbing the neighbours.
Anyway as far as equipment goes one change that I made that has definitely improved low level listening is getting a high quality DAC. I believe that the effect this has is to bring greater focus and definition to the mix and so you're less likely to want to turn it up.
 
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robdmarsh

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I did that with the Leaks. I sold my first CDT and Stereo 130 at the beginning of the year, and regretted as soon as I was packing them up. Now I've ended up with new ones after trying other things.
I don't really want to hijack this thread but how do you find your Leak amp vs your Denon pma 1600ne? Am I right in thinking that the Leak is basically an Audiolab 6000A in different clothes?
 

EricLeRouge

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50 db and below you say? According to the sound meter app on my phone, this is pretty much whisper quiet. I've heard, however, that these apps are incredibly inaccurate. When I'm playing music at night at 60 db I know it's low enough not to be disturbing the neighbours.
Anyway as far as equipment goes one change that I made that has definitely improved low level listening is getting a high quality DAC. I believe that the effect this has is to bring greater focus and definition to the mix and so you're less likely to want to turn it up.

Hi - you are correct, 50dB is very very low, 60dB is a normal conversation. I guess this is really indicative, not a hard measurement.

Sometimes I listen at 46dB (in so-called "nearfield listening", a few feet from the speakers and well into the triangle), but what I really mean to say is that I am really looking for the clearest possible sound at the lowest possible volume.

The Kef LS-50W (1st gen) sound very good in nearfield position, even at the lowest levels, although it requires adjustment in terms of bass management. However, they don't really 'sing' until you get the volume to 50 or 60, well above 60dB.

In addition to the good advice on this thread (Sugden + Klipsch Heresy), some people have suggested other high efficiency speakers (Tannoy) with a Luxman 550AX-II, apparently a proven combination - but that is taking me way too far in terms of budget. So for the moment I am at a standstill on this project.

Anyway, thanks for your kind help and advice.

Happy holidays.
 
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EricLeRouge

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You have already dispensed with a headphone-based system, but personally, I'd definitely be looking at the best you could buy with your budget... failing this maybe moving property would end up cheaper in the long run :)

Thanks, but I don't think I can find a property that would be as pleasant to that of where I live right now, so I'll probably just stick to nearfield listening, which is fine. Thanks anyway.
 
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