Upgrading from Naim to Croft

[Andrewjvt]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely. 

Audio quality duvet? Smile

 

[Vladimir]

I have recently acquired a pair of Red Rose Rosebud speakers, very early models, alledgedly 'voiced' in New York and they do sound very good. The US price was an eyewatering $3000.00 for a reasonably compact standmount, but I would rate them in the £1500 class.

Would those be Mark Levinson's Red Rose speakers?

I see what you mean about the color.

 

[Vladimir]

Audiophile quality duvet? Smile

 

[davedotco]

I have recently acquired a pair of Red Rose Rosebud speakers, very early models, alledgedly 'voiced' in New York and they do sound very good. The US price was an eyewatering $3000.00 for a reasonably compact standmount, but I would rate them in the £1500 class.

Would those be Mark Levinson's Red Rose speakers?

I see what you mean about the color.

Exactly like that.

Mine are a very early pair where (alledgedly) the tweaking was done in New York, later models were modified and shipped directly from China.

Something very similar appeared under the Aurum Cantus brand, some actually claiming to be identical to the Red Rose version though naturally Mark says otherwise.

The finish is 'French Sycamore' and is similar colour to cherry but with a different grain. Though the finish is not that special, the fit and solidity of the cabinets is exemplary, bass and midrange have something of classic Sonus Faber about them and the ribbon tweeter integrates as well as any hybrid I have tried.

They are not difficult to drive, but seem quite revealing of the amplification. I used a 30 wpc EL34 amplifier to dem them. Like this...

 

[tonky]

You get to hear some beautifully esoteric gear over your hi-fi career.

tonky

 

[davedotco]

You get to hear some beautifully esoteric gear over your hi-fi career.

tonky

Not entirely a good thing though, I once put together a system costing about £30k ( in the 90s when that was real money) trying to emulate a system I had heard.

It included an SME turntable and arm, Koetzu cartridge, Audio Research amplification and Martin Logan full range panals with subwoofers and it still did not quite hit the spot....*unknw*

 

[Vladimir]

They do look identical to the Aurum Cantus you mention, except for the simpler boxes. The Cantus' have boxes similar to Sonus Fabers (sloped baffle, cutoff corners for reflections, wallnut sideboards). I prefer the simpler look of the rectangular Rosebuds, but that light finish sort of cheapens them a bit, reminds me of Ikea computer desks. Due to the simple geometry you can re-veneer them in anything you like for not much money. Why give them up?

 

[davedotco]

They do look identical to the Aurum Cantus you mention, except for the simpler boxes. The Cantus' have boxes similar to Sonus Fabers (sloped baffle, cutoff corners for reflections, wallnut sideboards). I prefer the simpler look of the rectangular Rosebuds, but that light finish sort of cheapens them a bit, reminds me of Ikea computer desks. Due to the simple geometry you can re-veneer them in anything you like for not much money. Why give them up?

Used to supply a direct equivilent, looks wise, to the Rosebud, called the 'Leisure 5'. I reckon it sold for around £700-800 FOB.

Pay for export packing, shipping, duty, vat etc and you would be looking at around £1200 all in. No guarantee that this would be a Rosebud though, although built by the same manufacturer, it wil be to Aurum Cantum spec, not Red Rose.

As I said earlier, I really want to go down the active route and build an absolute minimalist system. If I could find a pair I would buy a late model pair of ADM9s.

 

[Vladimir]

1 / 2 / 3 / 4

 

[ChrisIRL]

What's lacking with the Naim that you hope to improve with the Croft?

A cleaner bass, a bit warmer sound and a deeper-wider soundstage, i m listening mostly to sisters of mercy,nick cave,new model army, siouxsie and the banshees, smiths-morrissey,pogues jesus and mary chain etc.

The Nait 5si to me has all the traits you're looking for. Apparently it's very different to previous nait models, but being my first I can't confirm this. Just today I listened to Nick Cave and also the Smiths. Sounded brilliant.

What speakers do you use?

ATC SCM11. The 5si scm11 combo have the ability to take a layer of fuzz off those older recordings. Best I've heard many of them sound. Soundstage and bass sound perfect. The bassier 5si adds a nice degree of warmth to the ATCs. Having compared the ATCs to some floor standers there is not as much a drop off in sense of scale as you might think, helped largely by the fact the ATCs can play extremely loudly without sound distorting or hardening up.

 

[lindsayt]

It's quite simple. Think of the Croft as a 30 watt amplifier into 8 ohms. And a 0.5 watt amplifer into 4 ohms.

When used under those parameters, the THD will be inaudible and other factors take over as to how good it will sound relative to any other amplifer.

It's clipping at 8W in 8 ohms and I don't see an output transformer or soft clipping circuit mentioned. The power amp is SS transistors, not valves. Isn't this a risk for blowing drivers?

Have you ever done any experiments to determine at what percentage level amplifier THD is apparent to you? Expecially bearing in mind that at 90 to 113 dbs at 1 metre - depending on speaker efficiency - an 8 ohm speaker is likely to be producing significant amounts of THD. And that's on top of the distortion inevitably produced by your ears at such high volumes.

If amplifier THD is apparent to you at 0.9% then you can think of the Croft as an 8 watt amp into 8 ohms. In the meantime I'm happy to consider the Croft a 30 watt amp into 8 ohms.

The power supply is colapsing and can't deliver steady current already at 8W in 8ohms. How much clipping is after that is irrelevant (in this case 2%). Glen added coupling capacitors on the output to filter out DC which is usually a bad thing, but in this case a good thing. It will save your tweeters.

If it was a valve amp I wouldn't worry about it. However, this is an SS output amp and its performance is pathetically impotent. Valve in pre and MOSFET on power is a dream combo that should combine linearity and strength. This is just a bag of euphonic flavor. Definitely not a wire with a volume knob.

WHAT NONSENSE IS THIS?

YOU QUOTE ME, BUT YOU INSERT A DIFFERENT GRAPH INTO THE BODY OF MY QUOTE????!!!

IF YOU'RE GOING TO QUOTE ME, QUOTE ME. DON'T MISREPRESENT WHAT I SAID!!!

DO YOU THINK I'M STUPID AND THAT I WOULDN'T NOTICE?

ARE YOU JUST TROLLING ME?

 

[Al ears]

It's quite simple. Think of the Croft as a 30 watt amplifier into 8 ohms. And a 0.5 watt amplifer into 4 ohms.

When used under those parameters, the THD will be inaudible and other factors take over as to how good it will sound relative to any other amplifer.

It's clipping at 8W in 8 ohms and I don't see an output transformer or soft clipping circuit mentioned. The power amp is SS transistors, not valves. Isn't this a risk for blowing drivers?

Have you ever done any experiments to determine at what percentage level amplifier THD is apparent to you? Expecially bearing in mind that at 90 to 113 dbs at 1 metre - depending on speaker efficiency - an 8 ohm speaker is likely to be producing significant amounts of THD. And that's on top of the distortion inevitably produced by your ears at such high volumes.

If amplifier THD is apparent to you at 0.9% then you can think of the Croft as an 8 watt amp into 8 ohms. In the meantime I'm happy to consider the Croft a 30 watt amp into 8 ohms.

The power supply is colapsing and can't deliver steady current already at 8W in 8ohms. How much clipping is after that is irrelevant (in this case 2%). Glen added coupling capacitors on the output to filter out DC which is usually a bad thing, but in this case a good thing. It will save your tweeters.

If it was a valve amp I wouldn't worry about it. However, this is an SS output amp and its performance is pathetically impotent. Valve in pre and MOSFET on power is a dream combo that should combine linearity and strength. This is just a bag of euphonic flavor. Definitely not a wire with a volume knob.

WHAT NONSENSE IS THIS?

YOU QUOTE ME, BUT YOU INSERT A DIFFERENT GRAPH INTO THE BODY OF MY QUOTE????!!!

IF YOU'RE GOING TO QUOTE ME, QUOTE ME. DON'T MISREPRESENT WHAT I SAID!!!

DO YOU THINK I'M STUPID AND THAT I WOULDN'T NOTICE?

ARE YOU JUST TROLLING ME?

Why the need to talk in capitals?

We're civilized here you know.

(If you can't stand the heat etc, etc) ;-)

 

[Vladimir]

When you quote someone here the images are lost, so its fairly obvious I added the graph and I wanted you to notice. There are 2 graphs and you conveniently used the one that suits your argument. *acute*