Upgrading from Naim to Croft

[CnoEvil]

So the poorer quality and lower power of budget amps should mean they sound better than expensive ones. Yes?

I will always listen to something before passing definitive judgement. I don't believe in being an academic, armchair arbiter of what is and isn't good in terms of SQ, solely based on measurements.

I freely admit that I make my assessment, mostly on subjective terms...I look for things like realism, believability and the ability to communicate the musicians intent. In other words, the music coming out of the speakers is more important (to me), than any individual components measurements.

FWIW. My point of reference is going to classical concerts and having played in a youth orchestra many years ago.

 

[Al ears]

It's true, I wouldn't buy a Croft based solely on figures. But then that's not why you buy a Croft.

The same could be said for many a good valve amp.

 

[DocG]

Hi. Indeed, first edition Nait XS will solve your problem - smoother sound and control on bass. I don't think the Croft will have better control on bass, but it will be warmer then the Nait 5. I would also look at changing those speakers. I would look at the following two variants: Naim Nait XS (first gen) / Supernait 1 + Focal Aria 906 / B&W 683 S2, or Hegel H80 + Kef LS50 / Harbeth P3SR.

I got the MonitorAudios a few months ago and i can't say i m pleased with them for several reasons, anyway they are the first that will leave the house and i was thinking Pmc Gb1i which seem to go down well with that kind of music. Focal were also under consideration and i can audition both of them.

It's just a thought, but why not get the speakers first (appropriate for your room, their position in the room and your music diet), and then choose an amp that's capable of driving them properly (taking into account the sensitivity, impedance curve, and the loudness you want, just to name a few)?

Find out for yourself, if you enjoy the hunt.

Or get the dealer to suggest you some sensible combinations, within your budgetary limits.

 

[Vladimir]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely.

 

[CnoEvil]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely. 

You seem to enjoy pulling a thread to see what unravels (pun intended).

 

[Vladimir]

I am talking about the amplifier and the speakers. Why are you throwing personal jabs at me?

 

[CnoEvil]

I am talking about the amplifier and the speakers. Why are you throwing personal jabs at me?

It wasn't meant as a personal jab, but an observation.

 

[davedotco]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely.

Strangely, given the measurements, that is exactly what the Croft does not do. It is open, articulate and makes the most out of pretty much everything that you play through it.

Normally I would be with TrevC on this, the figures are poor for a modern amplifier but it does not do the 'usual' bad things, it is not overly warm, neither does it mimic the speakers impedance curve or favour one style of music over another.

My view is that it 'trades' harmonic distortion for 'soft' clipping and reduces (or maybe masks) the 'convential' limitations of the better specified amplifiers at comparable prices. I realise this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' or 'total bo**ock' as Trev would say.

All in all I am at something of a loss to explain the subjective performance in relation to the measurements, normally it is not hard to spot the limitations of amplifiers that measure that poorly but I find it very difficult to find a downside with this amplifier, power limitations apart.

 

[CnoEvil]

Strangely, given the measurements, that is exactly what the Croft does not do. It is open, articulate and makes the most out of pretty much everything that you play through it.

Normally I would be with TrevC on this, the figures are poor for a modern amplifier but it does not do the 'usual' bad things, it is not overly warm, neither does it mimic the speakers impedance curve or favour one style of music over another.

My view is that it 'trades' harmonic distortion for 'soft' clipping and reduces (or maybe masks) the 'convential' limitations of the better specified amplifiers at comparable prices. I realise this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' or 'total bo**ock' as Trev would say.

All in all I am at something of a loss to explain the subjective performance in relation to the measurements, normally it is not hard to spot the limitations of amplifiers that measure that poorly but I find it very difficult to find a downside with this amplifier, power limitations apart.

 

Thank you for articulating, in a more knowledgeable way, to what I was attempting....and it does help that you've actually heard the thing.

 

[Al ears]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely.

Strangely, given the measurements, that is exactly what the Croft does not do. It is open, articulate and makes the most out of pretty much everything that you play through it.

Normally I would be with TrevC on this, the figures are poor for a modern amplifier but it does not do the 'usual' bad things, it is not overly warm, neither does it mimic the speakers impedance curve or favour one style of music over another.

My view is that it 'trades' harmonic distortion for 'soft' clipping and reduces (or maybe masks) the 'convential' limitations of the better specified amplifiers at comparable prices. I realise this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' or 'total bo**ock' as Trev would say.

All in all I am at something of a loss to explain the subjective performance in relation to the measurements, normally it is not hard to spot the limitations of amplifiers that measure that poorly but I find it very difficult to find a downside with this amplifier, power limitations apart.

Ditto. Listening to one you wouldn't believe the figures could be as bad as they appear.

 

[Vladimir]

I am talking about the amplifier and the speakers. Why are you throwing personal jabs at me?

It wasn't meant as a personal jab, but an observation.

It's passive aggressive nagging and I don't care for it.

I think the measurements I posted (from John Atkinson at Stereophile) shed a light to the OP what sound to expect and how to interpret it if he auditions the amp.

The OP asked if it is an upgrade. Well the measurements say no, it's a downgrade (Naim always has robust power supplies). Will it sound different? Very likely. Will it sound better with the OPs speakers, choice of music, room and personal preferences? How are we suposed to know that? We can't. Therefore, no one gives a sh*t if you went to the orchestra or not.

 

[Al ears]

I am talking about the amplifier and the speakers. Why are you throwing personal jabs at me?

It wasn't meant as a personal jab, but an observation.

It's passive aggressive nagging and I don't care for it.

I think the measurements I posted (from John Atkinson at Stereophile) shed a light to the OP what sound to expect and how to interpret it if he auditions the amp.

The OP asked if it is an upgrade. Well the measurements say no, it's a downgrade (Naim always has robust power supplies). Will it sound different? Very likely. Will it sound better with the OPs speakers, choice of music, room and personal preferences? How are we suposed to know that? We can't. Therefore, no one gives a sh*t if you went to the orchestra or not.

Does it matter if I talk Geology in church? (I am a geologist after all). And, this is a forum of no known decorum, as you might have recently found out. ;-)

 

[lindsayt]

I'm afraid your on to a lost cause with the type of music you're listening to,no amp in the world is going to sort some of the production used on some of the old indie stuff.try the next amp up in the naim line.the xs is nice and smooth (I've got it)but the sisters of mercy still sounds garbage.as they say garbage in...garbage out.it's the production and not the amp.

I totally disagree.

Sisters of Mercy were pretty well recorded.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc?artist=sisters+of

DR in the green. Compare that to every best selling album in the UK for each of the last 20 years or so.

There's a very significant different in listening to my Sisters albums on my old system and my current system.

I love the energy and passion from 1980's indie music.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's passive aggressive nagging and I don't care for it. 

Passive aggressive nagging, eh....Well I never; I'm really starting to fit in here.

 

[lindsayt]

Strangely, given the measurements, that is exactly what the Croft does not do. It is open, articulate and makes the most out of pretty much everything that you play through it.

Normally I would be with TrevC on this, the figures are poor for a modern amplifier but it does not do the 'usual' bad things, it is not overly warm, neither does it mimic the speakers impedance curve or favour one style of music over another.

My view is that it 'trades' harmonic distortion for 'soft' clipping and reduces (or maybe masks) the 'convential' limitations of the better specified amplifiers at comparable prices. I realise this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' or 'total bo**ock' as Trev would say.

All in all I am at something of a loss to explain the subjective performance in relation to the measurements, normally it is not hard to spot the limitations of amplifiers that measure that poorly but I find it very difficult to find a downside with this amplifier, power limitations apart.

It's quite simple. Think of the Croft as a 30 watt amplifier into 8 ohms. And a 0.5 watt amplifer into 4 ohms.

When used under those parameters, the THD will be inaudible and other factors take over as to how good it will sound relative to any other amplifer.

 

[Vladimir]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely.

Strangely, given the measurements, that is exactly what the Croft does not do. It is open, articulate and makes the most out of pretty much everything that you play through it.

Normally I would be with TrevC on this, the figures are poor for a modern amplifier but it does not do the 'usual' bad things, it is not overly warm, neither does it mimic the speakers impedance curve or favour one style of music over another.

My view is that it 'trades' harmonic distortion for 'soft' clipping and reduces (or maybe masks) the 'convential' limitations of the better specified amplifiers at comparable prices. I realise this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' or 'total bo**ock' as Trev would say.

All in all I am at something of a loss to explain the subjective performance in relation to the measurements, normally it is not hard to spot the limitations of amplifiers that measure that poorly but I find it very difficult to find a downside with this amplifier, power limitations apart.

Where is it stated that it has a soft clipping circuit implemented? Can't find by googling it.

 

[Vladimir]

It's quite simple. Think of the Croft as a 30 watt amplifier into 8 ohms. And a 0.5 watt amplifer into 4 ohms.

When used under those parameters, the THD will be inaudible and other factors take over as to how good it will sound relative to any other amplifer.

It's clipping at 8W in 8 ohms and I don't see an output transformer or soft clipping circuit mentioned. The power amp is SS transistors, not valves. Isn't this a risk for blowing drivers?

 

[davedotco]

Talking measurements and performance might not have been the best idea in a thread where the OP is picking between Naim and Croft amps. Talking geology in church is a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that throwing a blanket over MA speakers can only be a good thing. The Craft should do the job nicely.

Strangely, given the measurements, that is exactly what the Croft does not do. It is open, articulate and makes the most out of pretty much everything that you play through it.

Normally I would be with TrevC on this, the figures are poor for a modern amplifier but it does not do the 'usual' bad things, it is not overly warm, neither does it mimic the speakers impedance curve or favour one style of music over another.

My view is that it 'trades' harmonic distortion for 'soft' clipping and reduces (or maybe masks) the 'convential' limitations of the better specified amplifiers at comparable prices. I realise this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' or 'total bo**ock' as Trev would say.

All in all I am at something of a loss to explain the subjective performance in relation to the measurements, normally it is not hard to spot the limitations of amplifiers that measure that poorly but I find it very difficult to find a downside with this amplifier, power limitations apart.

Where is it stated that it has a soft clipping circuit implemented? Can't find by googling it.

Never suggested there was such a thing. It is just that the distortion produced when the amplifier is driven hard seems quite benign, unless you deliberately choose difficult speakers the Croft drives a lot of speakers very nicely.

In one sense I agree, the Croft is an odd amplifier with high distortion and limited power, the problem is that is not what it sounds like. As I pointed out earlier, amplifiers that have a lot of 'character' seem to be very picky with respect to the music that it plays well, I have not, in a modest amount of time spent with the amplifier, found that to be the case.

 

[tonky]

So the poorer quality and lower power of budget amps should mean they sound better than expensive ones. Yes?

I will always listen to something before passing definitive judgement. I don't believe in being an academic, armchair arbiter of what is and isn't good in terms of SQ, solely based on measurements.

I freely admit that I make my assessment, mostly on subjective terms...I look for things like realism, believability and the ability to communicate the musicians intent. In other words, the music coming out of the speakers is more important (to me), than any individual components measurements.

FWIW. My point of reference is going to classical concerts and having played in a youth orchestra many years ago.

Well Cno - What you say - That should be written on a tablet of stone - it's what listening to music through good quality equipment is all about.

- I've read Stereophile's reviewers - they certainly spout some verbal diarrhoea about the Croft - certainly would love to hear it. Also - This site has been so "well behaved" lately - shame to spoil it on an interesting thread - just my usual positive passive nagging way - ykwim

Just picking up on DDC comments- it just goes to show - measurements don't always tell the story.

tonky

 

[Vladimir]

Never suggested there was such a thing. It is just that the distortion produced when the amplifier is driven hard seems quite benign, unless you deliberately choose difficult speakers the Croft drives a lot of speakers very nicely.

Dave you are so enamoured with it, I think you need to buy one. I don't recall you ever talking up a hi-fi component as if it's a delicious crumpet.

 

[tonky]

Never suggested there was such a thing. It is just that the distortion produced when the amplifier is driven hard seems quite benign, unless you deliberately choose difficult speakers the Croft drives a lot of speakers very nicely.

Dave you are so enamoured with it, I think you need to buy one. I don't recall you ever talking up a hi-fi component as if it's a delicious crumpet.

Stereophile talked it up as if it was crumpet with strawberries and clotted cream - A gourmet experience indeed!

tonky

 

[lindsayt]

It's quite simple. Think of the Croft as a 30 watt amplifier into 8 ohms. And a 0.5 watt amplifer into 4 ohms.

When used under those parameters, the THD will be inaudible and other factors take over as to how good it will sound relative to any other amplifer.

It's clipping at 8W in 8 ohms and I don't see an output transformer or soft clipping circuit mentioned. The power amp is SS transistors, not valves. Isn't this a risk for blowing drivers?

Have you ever done any experiments to determine at what percentage level amplifier THD is apparent to you? Expecially bearing in mind that at 90 to 113 dbs at 1 metre - depending on speaker efficiency - an 8 ohm speaker is likely to be producing significant amounts of THD. And that's on top of the distortion inevitably produced by your ears at such high volumes.

If amplifier THD is apparent to you at 0.9% then you can think of the Croft as an 8 watt amp into 8 ohms. In the meantime I'm happy to consider the Croft a 30 watt amp into 8 ohms.

 

[davedotco]

Never suggested there was such a thing. It is just that the distortion produced when the amplifier is driven hard seems quite benign, unless you deliberately choose difficult speakers the Croft drives a lot of speakers very nicely.

Dave you are so enamoured with it, I think you need to buy one. I don't recall you ever talking up a hi-fi component as if it's a delicious crumpet.

I am very close to doing just that.

I have recently acquired a pair of Red Rose Rosebud speakers, very early models, alledgedly 'voiced' in New York and they do sound very good. The US price was an eyewatering $3000.00 for a reasonably compact standmount, but I would rate them in the £1500 class.

They are ribbon hybrids, and one of the best integrated hybrids I have used, I used to dem them with a 30 watt valve integrated with great success and I think the Croft is one of very few cheap amplifiers that might do them justice.

So, a dilema, the light wood finish is completely wrong for my room and as you can guess, I really want to go down the active route so I might try and sell them......*unknw*

 

[Dreadnought]

What's lacking with the Naim that you hope to improve with the Croft?

A cleaner bass, a bit warmer sound and a deeper-wider soundstage, i m listening mostly to sisters of mercy,nick cave,new model army, siouxsie and the banshees, smiths-morrissey,pogues jesus and mary chain etc.

The Nait 5si to me has all the traits you're looking for. Apparently it's very different to previous nait models, but being my first I can't confirm this. Just today I listened to Nick Cave and also the Smiths. Sounded brilliant.

What speakers do you use?

 

[Vladimir]

It's quite simple. Think of the Croft as a 30 watt amplifier into 8 ohms. And a 0.5 watt amplifer into 4 ohms.

When used under those parameters, the THD will be inaudible and other factors take over as to how good it will sound relative to any other amplifer.

It's clipping at 8W in 8 ohms and I don't see an output transformer or soft clipping circuit mentioned. The power amp is SS transistors, not valves. Isn't this a risk for blowing drivers?

Have you ever done any experiments to determine at what percentage level amplifier THD is apparent to you? Expecially bearing in mind that at 90 to 113 dbs at 1 metre - depending on speaker efficiency - an 8 ohm speaker is likely to be producing significant amounts of THD. And that's on top of the distortion inevitably produced by your ears at such high volumes.

If amplifier THD is apparent to you at 0.9% then you can think of the Croft as an 8 watt amp into 8 ohms. In the meantime I'm happy to consider the Croft a 30 watt amp into 8 ohms.

The power supply is colapsing and can't deliver steady current already at 8W in 8ohms. How much clipping is after that is irrelevant (in this case 2%). Glen added coupling capacitors on the output to filter out DC which is usually a bad thing, but in this case a good thing. It will save your tweeters.

If it was a valve amp I wouldn't worry about it. However, this is an SS output amp and its performance is pathetically impotent. Valve in pre and MOSFET on power is a dream combo that should combine linearity and strength. This is just a bag of euphonic flavor. Definitely not a wire with a volume knob.