Upgrade from Roksan K3 integrated onwards

[plastic penguin]

Thanks for your feedback. Can you define “better”? I assume amp with higher grade components, therefore costlier? Gosh, that Tucana is a whopper, costing £4300! And I like that it pumps out 150W. So, this implies going for option 1 in my earliest post.

I can't really define better as we all define it differently. Might be worthwhile demo one with your speakers and you can decide how it betters your K3.

Regarding the basic Tucana MK2, they are for sale much cheaper than the price you're showing. I had the basic MK2 and it's fabulous sounding.
This link is from a dealer who offer a returns, just in case it doesn't suit your needs.

Pardon our interruption...

 

[twinkletoes]

The Roksan Blak is an awesome amp, but I'm not sure how my subwoofer can be connected. I don't see analog pre-outs. Does anyone know?

what subwoofer do you have?

EDIT just read the B&W 610- you use the speaker level connections BUT not all amps like to be used like this. or you can use the pre outs of the amp, so a put the red and white from the pre outs to the LINE IN's of the subwoofer

 

[good_enough]

what subwoofer do you have?

EDIT just read the B&W 610- you use the speaker level connections BUT not all amps like to be used like this. or you can use the pre outs of the amp, so a put the red and white from the pre outs to the LINE IN's of the subwoofer

His point was the Blak doesn't seem to have pre-outs, which, remarkably, seems to be the case.

 

[twinkletoes]

His point was the Blak doesn't seem to have pre-outs, which, remarkably, seems to be the case.

In which case ive also answered that use the speaker level connections

 

[tytang]

Maybe I'm not best to comment as I prefer my Arcam over the k3 although it's undeniably a good amp hence I kept hold of it but after upgrading my speakers it lost its charm.
I found I prefer Arcam but it wasn't a big price jump at the time that gave me the improvement it was the type of dare I say it "house sound" the Arcam produces that I liked more not unlike you but the other way round.

Although I tried more expensive amps I found the differences were small until the prices jumped considerably then of course like everything else in life they get better especially when hitting the super analytical stuff I drool over where the quality of the musical source and copy becomes ever more important but it's house buying prices.

The other comments people have made make sense and unless paying much more I've found the difference isn't as apparent as jumping brand to a different type of dare I say it "house sound" so I'd of recommended trying different brands but you've journeyed to liking the roskans already so unless your planning on considerably upping the budget then it seems to be a common experience of nothing really changes around the same price bracket.

Of course there is the odd exceptions to the rule where something a little special comes along like the k3 is in its own right.

The heaven 11 Billie amp has caught my interest as something I'd like to hear as it's gathering quite a reputation as something a little special within my preferences.

Any comments, no matter how you perceive, is valuable to me. I want to sense what real people think. In which case your comment I am thankful.

I do love the Arcam sound; it is smooth, very balanced, warmish and sometimes it is dynamic. I don’t mind staying with Arcam a long time. It makes music enjoyable. The Roksan K3 has one extra unique feature; it makes vocal more standout. Suddenly I can hear a lot more how the voice sound. The sound, whether from a man or a woman, has so much more textures. You can tell the singer has a sore throat or not when the song was recorded!

Heaven 11 amplifier is another new info to me! Thank you for the suggestion! It looks gorgeous!

 

[tytang]

I can't really define better as we all define it differently. Might be worthwhile demo one with your speakers and you can decide how it betters your K3.

Regarding the basic Tucana MK2, they are for sale much cheaper than the price you're showing. I had the basic MK2 and it's fabulous sounding.
This link is from a dealer who offer a returns, just in case it doesn't suit your needs.

Pardon our interruption...

From where I’m from (Singapore), there isn’t a large market unlike in the UK. I can find one Tucana Mk2 selling around £3600. It’s in my list to consider. Gosh, it’s so beautifully designed!

 

[tytang]

In which case ive also answered that use the speaker level connections

Yes you did, thanks. I did give a thought to that. I would need another pair of speaker cables to connect to the L and R speaker inputs of the subwoofer (B&W 610 has them). However, in this case, I worry that changing volume of the Blak amp will affect the subwoofer input. I want to think that the subwoofer line level input is fixed. Amplifier speakers out are variable, aren’t they?

Another method of connection I am aware of is if the subwoofer has both speakers line in and another pair of speakers line out. In which case, cables from amp go to subwoofer line in, and another pair of cables from subwoofer line out to my main speaker 706. (My B&W 610ASW does not have this speakers line out). As I’m unsure and finding it incredibly complex, I drop the idea of going with Roksan Blak. Anyway there are so many great amplifiers that have been suggested here, I don’t need Blak!

At this moment, from the 3 options I was thinking of from the very beginning of this thread, option 1 (upgrading from K3 int amp to another int amp of somewhat significant higher cost) seems the more logical choice.

 

[twinkletoes]

Yes you did, thanks. I did give a thought to that. I would need another pair of speaker cables to connect to the L and R speaker inputs of the subwoofer (B&W 610 has them). However, in this case, I worry that changing volume of the Blak amp will affect the subwoofer input. I want to think that the subwoofer line level input is fixed. Amplifier speakers out are variable, aren’t they?

Another method of connection I am aware of is if the subwoofer has both speakers line in and another pair of speakers line out. In which case, cables from amp go to subwoofer line in, and another pair of cables from subwoofer line out to my main speaker 706. (My B&W 610ASW does not have this speakers line out). As I’m unsure and finding it incredibly complex, I drop the idea of going with Roksan Blak. Anyway there are so many great amplifiers that have been suggested here, I don’t need Blak!

At this moment, from the 3 options I was thinking of from the very beginning of this thread, option 1 (upgrading from K3 int amp to another int amp of somewhat significant higher cost) seems the more logical choice.

No it wouldn’t be fixed but you set the max volume (speaker level on your subwoofer)but it will go up and down with volume of the amp but will go no louder than volume/gain set on the back of subwoofer. The speaker level connection see exactly what the speakers see if that makes sense so can be preferable. Rel is famous for it and go about it a better way.

But besides the point if that amp is out of the running.

Sounds like you have plan which is good.

 

[Fandango Andy]

Hi all, I would like to explore ideas from folks here on how I can move forward in my journey for better sound. I have Roksan K3 integrated amplifier connecting to B&W 706 S2. I have thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful Roksan sound for all these years. I am not in a rush, but I have been thinking on the options for days now.

My options:
1) replace the K3 integrated with Caspian M2 integrated amplifier
2) connect in pre-amp/power amp format the K3 integrated with K3 power amplifier
3) I’m not sure here, but to keep the pre-amp/power amp format, connect K3 integrated with Caspian M2 power amp

I am keeping the B&W speaker with above options.

Let me know your ideas.

Later,
TY

Firstly a disclaimer, I am late to this thread and won't be reading the 30 something replies, so apologies if I rehash what others have already said. Here goes.

I'm not particularly familiar with your amp or the earmarked replacement. However, I think they are both in the £1k ballpark. Realistically if you compare two amps in the same price bracket they won't be significantly better or worse, at best a little different. Therefore all you can do is audition them and see how they compare.

If you want to improve your sound, how are your speakers performing? That model isn't the most forgiving when it comes to positioning. How is the room setup/treatment? Are you getting the most out of the speakers?

 

[plastic penguin]

From where I’m from (Singapore), there isn’t a large market unlike in the UK. I can find one Tucana Mk2 selling around £3600. It’s in my list to consider. Gosh, it’s so beautifully designed!

It's gorgeous sounding and built like brick wall. And it isn't too fussy about speaker matching, either. I regret selling mine.

 

[tytang]

No it wouldn’t be fixed but you set the max volume (speaker level on your subwoofer)but it will go up and down with volume of the amp but will go no louder than volume/gain set on the back of subwoofer. The speaker level connection see exactly what the speakers see if that makes sense so can be preferable. Rel is famous for it and go about it a better way.

But besides the point if that amp is out of the running.

Sounds like you have plan which is good.

Subwoofer brand SVS was widely marketed some 5 years or so ago by the hifi shops that I talked to. However, a new wave has emerged that REL Acoustics subwoofer is the real stuff. But this will be a separate discussion as this goes tangent to the need I’m seeking.

 

[tytang]

Firstly a disclaimer, I am late to this thread and won't be reading the 30 something replies, so apologies if I rehash what others have already said. Here goes.

I'm not particularly familiar with your amp or the earmarked replacement. However, I think they are both in the £1k ballpark. Realistically if you compare two amps in the same price bracket they won't be significantly better or worse, at best a little different. Therefore all you can do is audition them and see how they compare.

If you want to improve your sound, how are your speakers performing? That model isn't the most forgiving when it comes to positioning. How is the room setup/treatment? Are you getting the most out of the speakers?

Thanks for your input. It just solidifies the idea one needs to consider significant price jump for significant sound improvement.

And I summarize here the list of integrated amplifiers that were suggested (no need to read all the past replies):

Leema Tucana Mk2
Musical Fidelity M6si
Hegel H390
Rotel Michi X3 S2
Lyngdorf TDAI-1120
Primare I35
Heaven 11 Billie

I will and already checking them out. Ain’t hi fi indulgence a fun hobby?

 

[tytang]

Firstly a disclaimer, I am late to this thread and won't be reading the 30 something replies, so apologies if I rehash what others have already said. Here goes.

I'm not particularly familiar with your amp or the earmarked replacement. However, I think they are both in the £1k ballpark. Realistically if you compare two amps in the same price bracket they won't be significantly better or worse, at best a little different. Therefore all you can do is audition them and see how they compare.

If you want to improve your sound, how are your speakers performing? That model isn't the most forgiving when it comes to positioning. How is the room setup/treatment? Are you getting the most out of the speakers?

For the questions you are asking, I think the speakers have not reached its potential. Sound quality is still some distance away from the 800 series. My living space is small and that’s not something I can do about it. It’s a pity.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks for your input. It just solidifies the idea one needs to consider significant price jump for significant sound improvement.

And I summarize here the list of integrated amplifiers that were suggested (no need to read all the past replies):

Leema Tucana Mk2
Musical Fidelity M6si
Hegel H390
Rotel Michi X3 S2
Lyngdorf TDAI-1120
Primare I35
Heaven 11 Billie

I will and already checking them out. Ain’t hi fi indulgence a fun hobby?

You should be happy with any of those amps. All fine quality, so it'll boil down to which suits your speakers - and your ears - the best. That's something none of us can help with as presentation is so personal.

Keep us updated.

 

[WWWeary]

As someone who also loves the Roksan sound and who upgraded from K3 to the Caspian M2 I'm listening to right now, you already answered your own question in your original post.

The M2 puts a finer point on detail than the K3 without sacrificing bottom end, in fact the way it reaches down and keeps hold of the bass is compelling. Impeccable timing that requires only well-matched floorstanders to sound powerful rather than secondary amplification (sub) smearing the timing.

There are very good reasons this 2010 amp took so long to come down in price and it doesn't take long to find them. You can keep your class D, room correction and on-board digital.

Well-proven traditional class AB running in true stereo without digital accoutrements hasn't suddenly found itself bested by the technological advances, marketing campaigns and internet forum chit-chat of the last decade and a half believe me.

 

[Stuart83]

As someone who also loves the Roksan sound and who upgraded from K3 to the Caspian M2 I'm listening to right now, you already answered your own question in your original post.

The M2 puts a finer point on detail than the K3 without sacrificing bottom end, in fact the way it reaches down and keeps hold of the bass is compelling. Impeccable timing that requires only well-matched floorstanders to sound powerful rather than secondary amplification (sub) smearing the timing.

There are very good reasons this 2010 amp took so long to come down in price and it doesn't take long to find them. You can keep your class D, room correction and on-board digital.

Well-proven traditional class AB running in true stereo without digital accoutrements hasn't suddenly found itself bested by the technological advances, marketing campaigns and internet forum chit-chat of the last decade and a half believe me.

The latter 3 paragraphs are exactly my findings over the yrs.
Although going for a modern class-G amp in my main set that melds the two a&b classes in a more efficient way yet staying true to both classes.

I still, as I over state 😊 regularly go to a 33yr old class a/b amp and another coincidentally a k3 to have it musically played out to me that we haven't gone further forward with better gear much at all in recent yrs.
Only connectivity has advanced mostly for the worst from inferior types of connections via Bluetooth to lossy audio from the most popular sites like Spotify.

We can all qoute as many acronyms as there is (there will probably be another by the time I've rushed this) but the loin share of streaming is inferior to the humble CD and as I've found even when stated it's better there's still a difference for the better to be heard when switching from tidal to say the Marantz CD 60.

None of this of course is an issue for most as hifi isn't a thing to them and the convienience of streaming for the masses is why it's overtaking everything.

I'm off to the maverick hifi show in Barnsley for the weekend which has plenty of rooms for me to further my opinions of course.
I certainly want to demo the heaven Billie amp at some point which from reviews seems like it may change my mind about class d.
Being open minded and too analytical for my own good at time's means I can and only will speak on what I've actually heard for myself

 

[tytang]

As someone who also loves the Roksan sound and who upgraded from K3 to the Caspian M2 I'm listening to right now, you already answered your own question in your original post.

The M2 puts a finer point on detail than the K3 without sacrificing bottom end, in fact the way it reaches down and keeps hold of the bass is compelling. Impeccable timing that requires only well-matched floorstanders to sound powerful rather than secondary amplification (sub) smearing the timing.

There are very good reasons this 2010 amp took so long to come down in price and it doesn't take long to find them. You can keep your class D, room correction and on-board digital.

Well-proven traditional class AB running in true stereo without digital accoutrements hasn't suddenly found itself bested by the technological advances, marketing campaigns and internet forum chit-chat of the last decade and a half believe me.

At last an input from a fellow Roksan fan! Thank you WWWeary. When I started the thread, my intention is to continue a well trodden path. That is progression along the same Roksan path. The latest news on a new integrated amp (Caspian 4G) triggers my thoughts with some excitement. At this juncture given the inputs from many here (see the list above), I learned new great amps! Even for used or demo items the list above, each will cost some £2000+. I really like the Tucana, Billie and Lyngdorf. I’m asking myself do I want “better” or “different” sound. No matter which new amp I ended up with, I know I will keep the K3. I have been prudent in my spending, all my hifi gears were purchased at great substantial discount, and used. I’m re-looking at the Caspian M2 again (likely cost now around £700).

 

[tytang]

The latter 3 paragraphs are exactly my findings over the yrs.
Although going for a modern class-G amp in my main set that melds the two a&b classes in a more efficient way yet staying true to both classes.

I still, as I over state 😊 regularly go to a 33yr old class a/b amp and another coincidentally a k3 to have it musically played out to me that we haven't gone further forward with better gear much at all in recent yrs.
Only connectivity has advanced mostly for the worst from inferior types of connections via Bluetooth to lossy audio from the most popular sites like Spotify.

We can all qoute as many acronyms as there is (there will probably be another by the time I've rushed this) but the loin share of streaming is inferior to the humble CD and as I've found even when stated it's better there's still a difference for the better to be heard when switching from tidal to say the Marantz CD 60.

None of this of course is an issue for most as hifi isn't a thing to them and the convienience of streaming for the masses is why it's overtaking everything.

I'm off to the maverick hifi show in Barnsley for the weekend which has plenty of rooms for me to further my opinions of course.
I certainly want to demo the heaven Billie amp at some point which from reviews seems like it may change my mind about class d.
Being open minded and too analytical for my own good at time's means I can and only will speak on what I've actually heard for myself

The humble chore of searching for a CD among the hundreds that I have is actually quite fun; turning on the CD player and hearing the tray pop out, the whirring sound is quite hypnotic; sitting on a sofa awaiting song no 1 coming alive is akin to a young kid waiting to put a hand into a just-opened jar of candy. It’s so exciting!

Let us here know what you can find about the Billie. Their website says there is a Mk3 coming out. This Billie is exciting.

 

[Michael L]

I know this thread is dead, but this post maybe useful for someone looking to upgrade from the Roksan K3 integrated amplifier to the Roksan Blak integrated amplifier.

So I have had the K3 for around two and a half years as the main system into my house, running with a pair of Focal K2 Aria 926, which was Focal's most neutral speaker when I bought them, with the least amount of treble. I also have to mention that I am only running the speakers 5 ft apart, which does make a different t the soundstage, partly sticking out of an alcove with a TV in the middle. This will affect the soundstage, but the speakers are pulled about 6-18 inches which does make a dramatic difference to areas like the bass. When swapping over the amplifiers, the speakers never moved, and were centre on with no toe in.

So, I will first talk about the K3. My K3 suffered from the dreaded sound dial issue that seems to affect quite a few K3 and Blak amplifiers, where the sound jumps from quiet to loud just with a tiny click of the volume button, but fortunately the Blak I bought doesn't have this issue.

The sound of the K3 is big, with a lot of bass. With slightly recessed mids and an OK amount of treble. Personally, for my space, I never needed a subwoofer. When it came to soundstage it was a bit of a disappointment (but some of that will be down to the space), and having the speakers further apart would have helped (but that is not possible in my space). I also found the instrument separation to be very average. Finally, the detail whilst decent to good, was not great.

In comparison the Blak is a much better sounding amplifier. When I bought the blak, the amplifier had been in the back of a shop for a few weeks, so it needed some warming up to really sound good, and it took quite a few hours to get the Black to sound decent and days to sound good.

Out of the box, the Blak lacked bass, listening to the Tron Legacy soundtrack (one of my favourite albums was painful, with the music feeling distant, without much warmth, but after around 9 hours, listening the bass came through and the album really came back to life.

So now that the sound was up to a good level, I can give my thoughts. The sound from the Blak is a lot more balanced, with the mids being much more prominent compared to the K3. The treble was more noticeable and the bass was much tighter (but with a little less sub-bass). The soundstage is noticeably wider, with much better instrument separation. Finally, the detail of the Blak is on another level compared to the K3.

So for me, the difference between the 2 amplifiers was pretty noticeable, with the Black sounding much better for music. When it comes to using the amplifiers for films, it is a little more complicated. The Blak does sound better, but the K3 with its smaller soundstage, which makes the sound feel like it is coming out of the tv and the extra sub-bass just feels a little more epic, particularly compensating recessed mids.

The Blak is a much better amplifier, but the K3 is a little more fun in some ways. I was going to sell the K3, but I am thinking of keeping it, just because I do enjoy the sound.