Upgrade from Pioneer VSX AX4ASI

[Banda]

Hi first time poster.

I am toying with the idea of upgrading my current receiver due to getting new speakers, I currently have a Pioneer VSX AX4ASI which has served me well (spec sheet here

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/archive/VSX-AX4ASi-S/page.html

Funds are low and from what I have been reading there will be a few changes in the receiver market over this coming year so I am half thinking of going for a used or disconitued model to tide me over for 12-18 months. The main reason why I want to change my receiver is it has no HD audio capabilities and it can not pass through a 3D signal to my display.

How much would I be looking to spend to get something half decent and that would do my new speakers justice? I am using Monitor Audio Apex A10 for the surrounds, A40 for the centre and an SVS SB2000 sub.

Banda

 

[michael hoy]

If sticking with Pioneer then LX58 or above if buying new.

 

[Banda]

No real preference to pioneer and unfortunetly the lx58 is out of budget, as I mentioned funds are low.

 

[simonlewis]

This denon is a absolute steal was £500 when launched last year now £249.

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/denon/avrx2100/deno-avrx2100-blk

 

[Banda]

Thank you Simon. I have been looking at the Denon x4100, seems a nice bit of kit and there are a few deals about.

I would happily spend aropund £500-600 as this is mearly a stop gap and there seems to be a few recievers which were released at over £1,000 for this sort of money. Any other deals or suggestions would be gratefully received.

 

[michael hoy]

This denon is a absolute steal was £500 when launched last year now £249.

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/denon/avrx2100/deno-avrx2100-blk

That Denon will not do the Apex any justice, I have tried them with cheaper amps.

 

[Banda]

This denon is a absolute steal was £500 when launched last year now £249.

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/denon/avrx2100/deno-avrx2100-blk

That Denon will not do the Apex any justice, I have tried them with cheaper amps.

I was wondering if this would be the case, thanks for confirming. I have been told by a few retailers I should be looking at buying receivers with a retail price of £1,000 and upwards. Does this sound correct?

 

[michael hoy]

This denon is a absolute steal was £500 when launched last year now £249.

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/denon/avrx2100/deno-avrx2100-blk

That Denon will not do the Apex any justice, I have tried them with cheaper amps.

I was wondering if this would be the case, thanks for confirming. I have been told by a few retailers I should be looking at buying receivers with a retail price of £1,000 and upwards. Does this sound correct?

In my opinion yes.

The Apex are just short of £3000, I tried various amps at the dealers but not the Pioneer they did not have one at the time.

I had a Denon 1909 at the time and it was just not good enough, purchased a Pioneer LX72 which was a big step up but decided on the LX85 after hearing one with the Apex.

That is why I believe the LX58 is a starting point and the Apex do sound good with the Pioneer.

Some will say that Monitor Audio and Pioneer are on the bright side, I do not believe so with my setup.

The Pioneer (as all amps do) needs to be set up correctly and will reward you with a truely rewarding sound.

 

[Banda]

I do find my pioneer a bit bright and at times thin with certain material. This is one aspect I would like to improve upon with my next receiver. I like the detail I get from my pioneer but would like a bit more body (If that is the right term).

 

[michael hoy]

I do find my pioneer a bit bright and at times thin with certain material. This is one aspect I would like to improve upon with my next receiver. I like the detail I get from my pioneer but would like a bit more body (If that is the right term).

The Pioneer amps do have X curve which can trim the higher frequency, give it a try.

As I said before the amp does need to be set up correctly and not just relying on the auto setup.

 

[Banda]

I will give the X-Curve a try, I have seen it in the setup menu but never played around with it. Thank you for pointing it out, I am in truth a total beginner when it comes to setting up av receivers and reallly only know the very basics.

 

[Banda]

Fantastic advice Michael and thank you. I have only tried a few scenes on a film I watched earlier but I can definetley hear a difference. Is there any draw backs to using this feature?

 

[michael hoy]

Fantastic advice Michael and thank you. I have only tried a few scenes on a film I watched earlier but I can definetley hear a difference. Is there any draw backs to using this feature?

No, as you have just found out, only advantages.

 

[Banda]

Anyone?

 

[Banda]

Does anyone have any opinons on the Denon X4000 to be paired with my MA Apex? My other choices are spending a bit more on a Denon X4100W or a Pioneer SC-LX76 from germany. There is also an option of a pioneer lx57 although I am concerned that the pioneers might have a few issues from what I have read, this was namely the lx*6 series.

The reason why I am looking at the Denon is Audissey has been recomended as the best way to setup a system and as I am a total beginner I am thinking this might help me get the best out of my setup.

 

[ClassAct]

In my personal opinion and I'm sure others will agree with me I wouldn't buy a receiver based on its room correction software alone. It's far better to pick one based on its uncorrected,underlying signature sound and build from there. Get the basics right and the rest should fall in.

Having said that I did trial the Denon X4000 you've mentioned and I found it lacklustre and rather flat sounding to comparable Pioneers or Yamahas.

 

[michael hoy]

In my personal opinion and I'm sure others will agree with me I wouldn't buy a receiver based on its room correction software alone. It's far better to pick one based on its uncorrected,underlying signature sound and build from there. Get the basics right and the rest should fall in.

Having said that I did trial the Denon X4000 you've mentioned and I found it lacklustre and rather flat sounding to comparable Pioneers or Yamahas.

I have to agree with the statement in bold. That is why I said before about setting the amp up correctly.

The room correction is a starting point but by no means the end.

 

[Banda]

Thats good to hear that I am not tied to Audissey, the sale person I spoke to was very pushy of Audissey and dismissed other platforms out of hand. He mentioned how it was the only platform to EQ the sub etc. I guess as a total begineer it made it more likely that I would have a better sounding system if I bought an Audissey receiver in the price range I was looking at.

ClassAct thanks for the feedback on the denon 4000/4100 it is most useful. I am going to discount these models as I have read they can be underpowered, the X5200 looks nice and gets good reviews but is unfortunately out of my price range.

Michael are there any good guides you could recomend I could read to help me improve my setup knowledge? Any help or pointers are always welcomed.

So if you had to choose out of the pioneer sc-lx76, sc-lx57 or a Yamaha A2030 (all around £600-700) which would you favour for my speakers. I am also not bothered about network features just the best sound quality.

Edit: Or would I be better off waiting a few months for better discounts on newer receivers ie get something better/newer for my money?

 

[ClassAct]

Thats good to hear that I am not tied to Audissey, the sale person I spoke to was very pushy of Audissey and dismissed other platforms out of hand. He mentioned how it was the only platform to EQ the sub etc.  I guess as a total begineer it made it more likely that I would have a better sounding system if I bought an Audissey receiver in the price range I was looking at.

ClassAct thanks for the feedback on the denon 4000/4100 it is most useful. I am going to discount these models as I have read they can be underpowered, the X5200 looks nice and gets good reviews but is unfortunately out of my price range.

Michael are there any good guides you could recomend I could read to help me improve my setup knowledge?  Any help or pointers are always welcomed.

So if you had to choose out of the pioneer sc-lx76, sc-lx57 or a Yamaha A2030 (all around £600-700) which would you favour for my speakers. I am also not bothered about network features just the best sound quality.

Edit: Or would I be better off waiting a few months for better discounts on newer receivers ie get something better/newer for my money?

Thank you Banda. The salesperson could well be right in saying that Audysessy is the only room correction software to equalise the sub. However they're varying levels of Audysessy such as the higher level XT32 which I assume would do a better job in general in eq'ing your set up (not just the sub). Me or you may be mistaken though and it may not be the only software that can eq the subwoofer, Anthem's ARC software gets rave reviews. Someone on the forum will be able to inform you exactly what it does. If it fits the bill consider a used one that will be in your budget and match the specifications you desire.

To further add about the Denon X4000, I didn't trial it with the Apex speakers. I demo'd it with the Bowers & Wilkin's MT60D. This is a very similar satellite system directly competing with the Apex. So whilst it's fairly comparable just thought I would add that. You do state yourself though that they are underpowered.

If they're any newer or different Denon AVRs that interest you, give them a demo if possible and you can assess if the others give you what you are looking for. A used 4520 may be more suitable. Superior build quality and a lot more power.

 

[michael hoy]

The information below has been posted on here before but I cannot find the link.

Have a look and give it a go, It will give you different set up s that you can switch between whilst listening.

1) Set Receiver to MCAAC pre-set 1 (M1). Now Run Auto MCAAC in your listening position so the mic is where your ears are during listening.

2) Go into Manual SP Setup and change the SP settings if necessary (crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings.

4) Now you have an Auto MCAAC calibration saved to M1 (....note: you
must select which pre-set you want Auto MCAAC to save calibration data to
before you enter the audio setup menu.) Now go into Data Management--------> Da-ta Copy and copy M1's data to M2 and also to M3. Now you have carbon copies of this calibration in M1-M3.

5) Now go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb Measurement and get a reading on the the frequency response characteristics of your room. Be sure to select EQ OFF(standing waves not controlled for via MCAAC filters) in the Re-verb Measurement menu because
you don't want the standing wave adjustments (EQ on) to be factored in
to the room reverb measurements. Also make sure you haven't moved the mic.

6) After test tones are done, go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb View ,
and you can analyse the frequency response of individual channels at
various frequencies. Based upon that data, you would select the
appropriate capture delay time for MCAAC to capture data during for the
upcoming EQ calibration.

Change that time frame under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to whatever you decide is the appropriate capture delay time ....(Pioneer recommends 30-50 ms,
but they encourage you to analyse the data under reverb view first and
refer to the advanced MCAAC software manual for analysis purposes).
Note: the default capture delay time is than 80-160 ms.

7) Change to MCAAC pre-set 2 (M2) before you run the new advanced EQ calibra-tion with the new capture time. Go under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to
start the advanced EQ calibration, and MCAAC should make a more
accurate calibration since it will now capture sonic information sooner
after the speakers output sound, and get a read on what the frequency
response is of the speakers themselves, and not the speakers and all the
reverb which accumulates as time passes. (Default capture time is
80-160 ms and thus collects more reverb and less true speaker reading)

Now you should have an accurate calibration. Also, now you can easily
compare the Auto MCAAC EQ effects that are stored in M1 with the
advanced EQ effects in M2 while listening to content with a simple
button press on the remote. You could also juice the base a few db in
M3, and also compare running the base a bit hot to a flat calibration
that you have in M1 and M2.

The salesman is partly correct about sub EQ, the Pioneer MCACC until the 2015 models did not have Sub EQ, I believe the LX88 does noe have this.

 

[Series1boy]

I've had 5 AV receivers in my time with home cinema with 3 of them denon and 2 pioneers. My first was a Denon and I then upgraded to a pioneer but can't remember the models. I then upgraded to the pioneer LX 70 because I wanted Hdmi for hd audio and tidy cables... This was a good reciever but it only lasted 3 years and is the only time I didn't take out a 5 year guarantee.

I then upgraded to a Denon 2113 which was half the price as the lx70 and it sounded no different. More recently I went for x4100 and my oh my, what a significant improvement in power and the surround sound is magnificent. I have atmos in a 5.1.2 config with upfiring speakers at the front. The audessy on this unit does agreat job in setting it up, but I have tweaked the settings to suit my room and it doesn't sound clinical.

Even though I've had 2 pioneers, I prefer the Denon sound but I would go and demo before you buy. There are others revivers such as yamaha and Marantz thst I would also recomend you audition.

these are my thoughts.

 

[Series1boy]

There is also the Denon x3100 @ £ 499 and has revived a great review over on AVforums

https://www.avforums.com/review/denon-avr-x3100w-7-2-av-receiver-review.11211

 

[Banda]

Classact - I think in an ideal world every setup would EQ the sub. To me it seems strange that this is not the case but then again I am a total beginner. Is EQing a sub correctly hard to do?

The anthem range seem to be getting rave reviews allround but they also seem to hold their price really well. Maybe one to look at when I do my full purchase ie when hdcp 2.2 and DTSx is established.

Michael - thank you once again, I will give that list a go that's just what I was looking for. I must say I am pretty impressed already so if this can get even more out of my setup I would be over the moon. My apex speakers are only 10 days old and seem to be getting better and better everytime I hear them. I am really pleased I spent a bit more than I initially was going to.

Series1boy - thank you for he link. I had a demo of the 5200 this weekend and I don't know if it wasn't setup right but I wasn't blown away by the sound. I had nothing to compare it to as that was the only receiver on offer. It could well just be a bad setup as the 5200 gets great reviews.

 

[michael hoy]

Hi Banda,

The Apex do need time to run in as I found out when I purchased mine.

If you can buy a Sound Pressure Meter (SPL).

Using an SPL meter set to c-weighted slow response, place the unit point up at the ceiling at the appropriate ear height and location for the main listening seat. Using the main front speakers as your reference channels, adjust the master volume until the SPL meter reads 75dB when the left front speaker is playing the test tone. Next calibrate each speaker to that 75dB reference.

The above is used for all speakers.

Have a look at the link below.

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/subwoofer-connection-guide

 

[Banda]

Thank you once again Michael. I will get a spl meter ordered. I see there are spl meter apps for phones are these any good or should I just buy a proper meter?