UK Voltage and your HiFi

[abacus]

Longevity is not tested, nor is there any regulations or standards for it; just a vague reasonable time is loosely mentioned. Manufactures have to build a product that will operate safely within its intended environment for which standards have been set. An item of equipment that is working at its maximum limitations all the time, will not last as long as a unit that operates at its optimum limits. Filament lamps life span is measured at its optimum operating voltage, not at its upper or lower limits. Bill (Former Electrical Engineer of over 30 years)

 

[relocated]

We have had a 'Voltage Regulator' set to 220 volts for the last 2+years. It would appear to have saved a reasonable sum of money in electricity with NO downside. The shower feeds and cooker panel are obviously not routed through the regulator and so maintain their heating force. I won't get my 'investment' back, but my wife may and we've had no breakdowns /failures of appliances/equipment.

Oh! and no downside, also means the hifi sounds just as good and the tv performance is as was.

 

[Jota180]

The voltage in the UK is 230 +10% -6%. All electrical equipment for sale in the EU is designed to tolerate the swings in domestic supply and a bit more besides.

 

[Jota180]

That only applies to the old style incandescent lightbulbs but everyone has those energy saving designs now and it doesn't apply to them. You wont save energy on anything like kettles or your domestic heating or electric heaters with thermostats or your fridge for that matter either. A lot of electronic devices use switched mode power supplies, so if the voltage is lower, they just draw more current to compensate.

Edit. Dunno what happened to your quote but I quoted the original post.

 

[Jota180]

We have had a 'Voltage Regulator' set to 220 volts for the last 2+years. It would appear to have saved a reasonable sum of money in electricity with NO downside. The shower feeds and cooker panel are obviously not routed through the regulator and so maintain their heating force. I won't get my 'investment' back, but my wife may and we've had no breakdowns /failures of appliances/equipment.

Oh! and no downside, also means the hifi sounds just as good and the tv performance is as was.

Can you list the items of equipment that you believe have used less electricity please?

 

[Gazzip]

The voltage in the UK is 230 +10% -6%. All electrical equipment for sale in the EU is designed to tolerate the swings in domestic supply and a bit more besides.

I agree entirely, as is my car designed to rev to 8000 RPM. However I wouldn't drive it like that all the time because it will not last as long as if I drove it below the redline and in its optimal zone as the manufacturer intended.

 

[Gazzip]

We have had a 'Voltage Regulator' set to 220 volts for the last 2+years. It would appear to have saved a reasonable sum of money in electricity with NO downside. The shower feeds and cooker panel are obviously not routed through the regulator and so maintain their heating force. I won't get my 'investment' back, but my wife may and we've had no breakdowns /failures of appliances/equipment.

Oh! and no downside, also means the hifi sounds just as good and the tv performance is as was.

Can you list the items of equipment that you believe have used less electricity please?

Your point is valid but let's not mix up saving cash and equipment protection.

 

[Cockroach]

[

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

Source?

These figures are correct. However Trevor is refusing to accept the fact that anything above 230V is bad for equipment in spite of the FACTS stated in the British Standards:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Neither an amplifier or a TV set is a linear appliance. A modern TV will actually draw less current at a higher voltage because they all use switch mode power supplies, and most amplifiers are class AB with a low, usually regulated, quiescent current which only increases with volume.

For anybody who is interested (probably nobody by now and frankly I don't blame you, this is getting boring) please do a gooogle search for linear circuit, examples of. Number one on the list will be AMPLIFIERS.

I posted this information because it is interesting and because it could prove to be useful to anybody that has an unusually high mains voltage coming in to their domestic environment. However the thread is no use to man nor beast now that you have shat your, at best ill informed, at worst made up, nonsense all over it.

Been looking through some of your other posts. Looks like your modus operandi on the forum is to find a thread you can start a fight in, usually by arguing that black is actually white. Quite pathetic really.

Yes, this is how he behaves all the time. IMO he should have been moderated out of this place some time ago. Not for what he says, but because of the way he says is. He is one of the few who seems to go out of his way to sour the atmosphere. It's a shame. It used to be a more enjoyable place.

 

[Anderson]

I can see how OP's argument applies to a lightbulb but not to anything with a regulated power supply ie anything HiFi.

 

[SteveR750]

The voltage in the UK is 230 +10% -6%. All electrical equipment for sale in the EU is designed to tolerate the swings in domestic supply and a bit more besides.

I agree entirely, as is my car designed to rev to 8000 RPM. However I wouldn't drive it like that all the time because it will not last as long as if I drove it below the redline and in its optimal zone as the manufacturer intended.

Now, there you are wrong. There is a "red line" and an electronic limiter all designed to protect the engine. Just change your oil regularly, and you can thrash it every day.

 

[andyjm]

Gazzip, I am afraid that TrevC is right, and much of what you propose is wrong.

These days, about the only things that are voltage sensitive in the way you describe are things that heat up (heaters, cookers, incandescent lights) and so on. Primarily because they are 'power' devices, and power is proportional to voltage squared, a small change in voltage will have a much larger effect on power.

Modern electronic devices, CFL lights and so on, generally use switch mode supplies which are insensitive to the changes in mains voltage you describe. Even a linear amplifier with unstabilised supply will only be impacted at the point the output drivers hit the supply rails.

 

[SteveR750]

Yes, this is how he behaves all the time. IMO he should have been moderated out of this place some time ago. Not for what he says, but because of the way he says is. He is one of the few who seems to go out of his way to sour the atmosphere. It's a shame. It used to be a more enjoyable place.

Hence the "who is really qualified to comment" thread. Forums are full of psuedo experts, treat everyone like that whatever they claim, and it's a much nicer friendlier place. Expect subjective opinion only and the willy waving crap becomes irrelevant. Remember, never feed a troll....

 

[Gazzip]

Gazzip, I am afraid that TrevC is right, and much of what you propose is wrong.

These days, about the only things that are voltage sensitive in the way you describe are things that heat up (heaters, cookers, incandescent lights) and so on. Primarily because they are 'power' devices, and power is proportional to voltage squared, a small change in voltage will have a much larger effect on power.

Modern electronic devices, CFL lights and so on, generally use switch mode supplies which are insensitive to the changes in mains voltage you describe. Even a linear amplifier with unstabilised supply will only be impacted at the point the output drivers hit the supply rails.

Bryston have confirmed to me that 250V will increase heat levels and induce hum/vibration in my 28B's. Not good for the longevity of my equipment (electronics do not like to get hot), not good for my listening environment (getting hot), not good for background silence and not good for my carbon footprint.

 

[andyjm]

Transformers buzz when they saturate. If the transformer in your Bryston is buzzing at 250V and overheating, then send it back.

As is pointed out in this thread, UK mains voltage is specified at 230V +10% -6%. Any electrical or electronic product availble for sale in the UK should operate correctly and safely within this voltage range.

If your amp won't work properly at 250V because of a badly specified transformer, I would have thought you would have grounds for asking for a replacement.

 

[Gazzip]

Transformers buzz when they saturate. If the transformer in your Bryston is buzzing at 250V and overheating, then send it back.

As is pointed out in this thread, UK mains voltage is specified at 230V +10% -6%. Any electrical or electronic product availble for sale in the UK should operate correctly and safely within this voltage range.

If your amp won't work properly at 250V because of a badly specified transformer, I would have thought you would have grounds for asking for a replacement.

and the heat?

 

[Anderson]

Transformers buzz when they saturate. If the transformer in your Bryston is buzzing at 250V and overheating, then send it back.

As is pointed out in this thread, UK mains voltage is specified at 230V +10% -6%. Any electrical or electronic product availble for sale in the UK should operate correctly and safely within this voltage range.

If your amp won't work properly at 250V because of a badly specified transformer, I would have thought you would have grounds for asking for a replacement.

and the heat?

A transformer is designed to deal with heat, its a big slab of metal in most cases (pun not intended), heat shouldn't really be an issue.

I can fully understand the argument regarding product lifetime if its straight wire input, as other people have said, bulb, heater element etc but a regulated supply is simple and designed to work within tolerance. Anything after the supply would be very vulnerable to supply but that's why you'd have a regulated supply in the first place.

 

[Covenanter]

The ignorance posted on this thread beggars belief.

Chris

 

[abacus]

Most of the posts in this thread of been quite sensible and resonable, however they have tended to focus and just one type of equipment and use, which as I said in my first post is not that simple when you take into account the bigger picture.

The type of equipment mentioned by the OP is pretty common in industrial & Commercial premises these days as they try to cut down on their energy bill and carbon footprint, however an audit is always taken first to see what equipment will benefit, make no difference or actually be worse by using this type of system, (Not forgetting payback time and Government subsidies available) before deciding on a course of action.

Domestic premises are normally pretty standard in the type of equipment used within, so a more general approach can be taken, and this is where the average 10% saving comes from.

Modern equipment is designed for optimum use at 230V but for safety has to cover a much wider range, but anything over the optimum voltage has to be lost somewhere, and is usually in heat, thus reducing the longevity of the equipment.

Bill

 

[andyjm]

Not wishing to offend the posters on this thread, but another example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

In your house you will have a variety of electrical devices. Absent some power amps, most modern electronic devices use some form of switch mode supply, often able to operate over a very wide range of voltage to accomodate both US (110V) and Europe / Asia (230V). Changing the supply voltage will not change power consumption, the switcher takes care of that.

Resistive heating devices (cookers, fan heaters, hair dryers, incandescent lights etc) will definitely draw more power as the voltage goes up, but in turn they 'work' better - the power isn't lost. If it takes 2KW for 2 hours to heat a room in your house, then running the fan heater at a lower voltage will draw less power, but you need to run it for longer. No energy saved. Same is true of the cooker, the hair dryer and so on - more voltage means more power in, but also means more power out.

Incandescent lights are a more complex argument (becoming less important as the use of incandescent lights dies out). Higher voltage means more power in, but also means a brighter light. Arguably, at a higher voltage you could use slightly fewer bulbs to light a room - thereby using the same power as using more bulbs at a lower voltage. The issue with incandescent bulbs is life. Voltage dictates the temperature of the filament, the higher the temperature, the shorter the life (not quite true for quartz / halogen-cycle bulbs). This is not true for modern CFL or LED bulbs which have electronic drivers built into them and don't have the same voltage sensitivity.

So, ignoring power amps with a questionable choice of mains transformer, most things in your house will work pretty much the same, with pretty much the same overall power consumption within the rated range of mains voltage.

No 'optimiser' required.

 

[abacus]

Not wishing to offend the posters on this thread, but another example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

In your house you will have a variety of electrical devices. Absent some power amps, most modern electronic devices use some form of switch mode supply, often able to operate over a very wide range of voltage to accomodate both US (110V) and Europe / Asia (230V). Changing the supply voltage will not change power consumption, the switcher takes care of that.

Resistive heating devices (cookers, fan heaters, hair dryers, incandescent lights etc) will definitely draw more power as the voltage goes up, but in turn they 'work' better - the power isn't lost. If it takes 2KW for 2 hours to heat a room in your house, then running the fan heater at a lower voltage will draw less power, but you need to run it for longer. No energy saved. Same is true of the cooker, the hair dryer and so on - more voltage means more power in, but also means more power out.

Incandescent lights are a more complex argument (becoming less important as the use of incandescent lights dies out). Higher voltage means more power in, but also means a brighter light. Arguably, at a higher voltage you could use slightly fewer bulbs to light a room - thereby using the same power as using more bulbs at a lower voltage. The issue with incandescent bulbs is life. Voltage dictates the temperature of the filament, the higher the temperature, the shorter the life (not quite true for quartz / halogen-cycle bulbs). This is not true for modern CFL or LED bulbs which have electronic drivers built into them and don't have the same voltage sensitivity.

So, ignoring power amps with a questionable choice of mains transformer, most things in your house will work pretty much the same, with pretty much the same overall power consumption within the rated range of mains voltage.

No 'optimiser' required.

Like most of the posts quite sensible however, as I said it is not that simple and can be very complex to sort out the wheat from the chaff, however I can assure you that the average savings in a domestic premises will be 10%, as well as increased longevity of equipment.

Bill (Former Electrical Engineer of over 30 years)

 

[andyjm]

Bill,

Instantaneous power consumption will of course go down. It is not so clear however whether the electricity bill will be any smaller at the end of the month.

The fan heater will need to run just that bit longer, the cooker will take a bit longer to warm up, the kettle a bit longer to boil, you may have to switch another light on to get the same level of illumination. Lower instantaneous KW, but not necessarily lower KW-hours.

Discussions about power saving are much more nuanced than a simple 'I reduced the voltage and the power consumption went down'.

CFL lights are a case in point. At first sight, replacing a 60W incandescent bulb with a 9W CFL has saved 51W. So at the end of the month, quite rightly, you want to see the money saved. But during the winter, when the house is being heated, that 60W was offseting a heating requirement - the boiler had to work slightly less hard to keep the house to temperature. So during the heating season, the saving of replacing a 60W bulb with a 9W CFL is the price difference of 51W equivalent of gas (say) with 51W of equivalent of electricity - a much smaller saving. In fact, depending on how long the heating season is, and depending on the price differential of electricity and the fuel used to heat the house, the additional price of a CFL bulb dwarfes the value of energy 'saved'. Add in the extra energy required to make the CFL bulb in the first place, the issues with mercury vapour, and CFL bulbs don't look such a green alternative after all.

Andy (Former Electronic Design Engineer of over 30 years)

 

[Gazzip]

Bill,

Instantaneous power consumption will of course go down. It is not so clear however whether the electricity bill will be any smaller at the end of the month.

The fan heater will need to run just that bit longer, the cooker will take a bit longer to warm up, the kettle a bit longer to boil, you may have to switch another light on to get the same level of illumination. Lower instantaneous KW, but not necessarily lower KW-hours.

Discussions about power saving are much more nuanced than a simple 'I reduced the voltage and the power consumption went down'.

CFL lights are a case in point. At first sight, replacing a 60W incandescent bulb with a 9W CFL has saved 51W. So at the end of the month, quite rightly, you want to see the money saved. But during the winter, when the house is being heated, that 60W was offseting a heating requirement - the boiler had to work slightly less hard to keep the house to temperature. So during the heating season, the saving of replacing a 60W bulb with a 9W CFL is the price difference of 51W equivalent of gas (say) with 51W of equivalent of electricity - a much smaller saving. In fact, depending on how long the heating season is, and depending on the price differential of electricity and the fuel used to heat the house, the additional price of a CFL bulb dwarfes the value of energy 'saved'. Add in the extra energy required to make the CFL bulb in the first place, the issues with mercury vapour, and CFL bulbs don't look such a green alternative after all.

Andy (Former Electronic Design Engineer of over 30 years)

Andy, You are correct in all that you say in this post. The potential for energy savings is difficult to quantify and as I understand it optimizers are not currently an acceptable enviro-upgrade for funding under the government's Green Deal for this reason. This doesn't mean that they do not save electricity in many cases it just means that savings are situation dependent. Giving it a broadbrush "green" stamp in the box is not therefore possible.

Although I do care about my carbon footprint this is not why I have invested in an optimiser. I have invested because running voltage in excess of the optimal input load of 230V in to my power amplifiers results in excess heat being produced. I know that the power supply in my amp is more than capable of dealing with voltage up to 253V but the heat being produced by the over voltage is also indirectly heating up the rest of the elctronics in the box which will quite possibly shorten the lifespan of my amps.

This heat is also raising the temperature of my listening room (a converted roof space) by a couple of degrees. Lovely at the moment but not too nice come summertime.

 

[Vladimir]

Question for our engineers on the forum. When I used my AVR (1kVA automatic voltage regulator, cheap relay type affair) on my amplifiers, I noticed they produced less heat. This was more or less the case with 4 different amps I tried with. Why was this happening is still unknown to me. Other fellow audiophiles have tried and told me the same occurs with their amps. Any simple explanation for this?

 

[Anderson]

Did you measure the temp Vlad or judging by hand?

 

[Vladimir]

By hand.