UK Voltage and your HiFi

[Gazzip]

I've seen this bit of kit highly recommended elsewhere.

www.powerinspired.com/ag1500-ac-regenerator-1500w-psu-p-1742.html

Won't affect sound quality one iota, so what's the point?

Well TrevC you are normally very sensible, however this time you seem to have missed the point.

1. It has nothing to do about altering the sound

2. Its about reducing voltage to increase the longevity of connected equipment, as well as reducing power consumption.

3. Have you seen the price of a 60A Single Phase Step Down Transformer. (And thats not including building the enclosure to suit, or finding somewhere suitable between the Meter and consumer Unit for such a large item)

Bill

1500 watts @ 250v is 6 amps not 60. :O) Most hifi with a solid state amplifier will average a heck of a lot less than 1500 watts.

Of course derating a filament lightbulb will increase its life, but it will also reduce brightness. There's no evidence that reducing the voltage input to an an amplifier designed for our mains will last any longer, and the amount spent on reducing the voltage is out of all proportion to the electricity saving. In the winter you use any dissipated heat in the room.

Good stuff Trevor. You stick with your raw mains on the basis that there is "no evidence" (AKA stuff you don't understand). Myself I think I will de-risk that "grey area" which really isn't that grey at all. There is no point in trying to convince you. I have seen others try and fail.

 

[bigboss]

I'm a skeptic usually but I found this when I googled:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

 

[Gazzip]

I'm a skeptic usually but I found this when I googled:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Thanks Bigboss. The British Standards are about as black and white as it gets.

 

[TrevC]

I've seen this bit of kit highly recommended elsewhere.

www.powerinspired.com/ag1500-ac-regenerator-1500w-psu-p-1742.html

Won't affect sound quality one iota, so what's the point?

Well TrevC you are normally very sensible, however this time you seem to have missed the point.

1. It has nothing to do about altering the sound

2. Its about reducing voltage to increase the longevity of connected equipment, as well as reducing power consumption.

3. Have you seen the price of a 60A Single Phase Step Down Transformer. (And thats not including building the enclosure to suit, or finding somewhere suitable between the Meter and consumer Unit for such a large item)

Bill

1500 watts @ 250v is 6 amps not 60. :O) Most hifi with a solid state amplifier will average a heck of a lot less than 1500 watts.

Of course derating a filament lightbulb will increase its life, but it will also reduce brightness. There's no evidence that reducing the voltage input to an an amplifier designed for our mains will last any longer, and the amount spent on reducing the voltage is out of all proportion to the electricity saving. In the winter you use any dissipated heat in the room.

Good stuff Trevor. You stick with your raw mains on the basis that there is "no evidence" (AKA stuff you don't understand). Myself I think I will de-risk that "grey area" which really isn't that grey at all. There is no point in trying to convince you. I have seen others try and fail.

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

 

[Gazzip]

I've seen this bit of kit highly recommended elsewhere.

www.powerinspired.com/ag1500-ac-regenerator-1500w-psu-p-1742.html

Won't affect sound quality one iota, so what's the point?

Well TrevC you are normally very sensible, however this time you seem to have missed the point.

1. It has nothing to do about altering the sound

2. Its about reducing voltage to increase the longevity of connected equipment, as well as reducing power consumption.

3. Have you seen the price of a 60A Single Phase Step Down Transformer. (And thats not including building the enclosure to suit, or finding somewhere suitable between the Meter and consumer Unit for such a large item)

Bill

1500 watts @ 250v is 6 amps not 60. :O) Most hifi with a solid state amplifier will average a heck of a lot less than 1500 watts.

Of course derating a filament lightbulb will increase its life, but it will also reduce brightness. There's no evidence that reducing the voltage input to an an amplifier designed for our mains will last any longer, and the amount spent on reducing the voltage is out of all proportion to the electricity saving. In the winter you use any dissipated heat in the room.

Good stuff Trevor. You stick with your raw mains on the basis that there is "no evidence" (AKA stuff you don't understand). Myself I think I will de-risk that "grey area" which really isn't that grey at all. There is no point in trying to convince you. I have seen others try and fail.

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

I am quoting the British Standards Trevor.

 

[Lost Angeles]

I'm a skeptic usually but I found this when I googled:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Thanks Bigboss. The British Standards are about as black and white as it gets.

Guys we are on the 17th regs now not 16th.

 

[TrevC]

I've seen this bit of kit highly recommended elsewhere.

www.powerinspired.com/ag1500-ac-regenerator-1500w-psu-p-1742.html

Won't affect sound quality one iota, so what's the point?

Well TrevC you are normally very sensible, however this time you seem to have missed the point.

1. It has nothing to do about altering the sound

2. Its about reducing voltage to increase the longevity of connected equipment, as well as reducing power consumption.

3. Have you seen the price of a 60A Single Phase Step Down Transformer. (And thats not including building the enclosure to suit, or finding somewhere suitable between the Meter and consumer Unit for such a large item)

Bill

1500 watts @ 250v is 6 amps not 60. :O) Most hifi with a solid state amplifier will average a heck of a lot less than 1500 watts.

Of course derating a filament lightbulb will increase its life, but it will also reduce brightness. There's no evidence that reducing the voltage input to an an amplifier designed for our mains will last any longer, and the amount spent on reducing the voltage is out of all proportion to the electricity saving. In the winter you use any dissipated heat in the room.

Good stuff Trevor. You stick with your raw mains on the basis that there is "no evidence" (AKA stuff you don't understand). Myself I think I will de-risk that "grey area" which really isn't that grey at all. There is no point in trying to convince you. I have seen others try and fail.

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

I am quoting the British Standards Trevor.

Well done.

 

[SteveR750]

[

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

Source?

 

[bigboss]

I'm a skeptic usually but I found this when I googled:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Thanks Bigboss. The British Standards are about as black and white as it gets.

Guys we are on the 17th regs now not 16th.

I don't think science changes with every regs.

 

[Gazzip]

[

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

Source?

These figures are correct. However Trevor is refusing to accept the fact that anything above 230V is bad for equipment in spite of the FACTS stated in the British Standards:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

[/quote]

 

[toyota man]

± 6volts falling standards if you ask me ±10% its no wonder that things don't last

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Equipment labelled 230v should be suitably tested for 220-240v (+/- tolerance). We rely on manufacturers to manufacture & test accordingly. It is interesting to know the very significant effect on some equipment (filament bulbs etc) but not sure how my kettle performs. Hopefully most 'kit' will happily perform within tolerance. It must be impossible to know how our audio equipment or TV's will perform at the extremes of tolerance. Most folk have no idea of the voltage of their supply.

Energy companies are supplying monitors - energy saving is a government priority. Maybe instead they should be supplying voltage stabilizers. 10% saving on all electrical consumption - some big deal?

An interesting post. The facts seem clear. I understand the OP's strategy but won't be rushing out to buy one. Maybe a consideration when updating an older supply box.

Cheers

 

[Snooker]

I agee with some previous comments made that at the end of the day designers of equipment know what the voltage tolerances are and design that into their products, therefore if the mains voltage stays within its 10% limits then everything will work just fine, and there will be no noticeable ageing of equipment or fuses blowing, its all very simple and straight forward, common sense really

 

[TrevC]

I agee with some previous comments made that at the end of the day designers of equipment know what the voltage tolerances are and design that into their products, therefore if the mains voltage stays within its 10% limits then everything will work just fine, and there will be no noticeable ageing of equipment or fuses blowing, its all very simple and straight forward, common sense really

Exactly.

 

[Gazzip]

I agee with some previous comments made that at the end of the day designers of equipment know what the voltage tolerances are and design that into their products, therefore if the mains voltage stays within its 10% limits then everything will work just fine, and there will be no noticeable ageing of equipment or fuses blowing, its all very simple and straight forward, common sense really

Manufacturers do not design to +10% -6%,. That is incorrect. The % tolerance is what the UK government consider an acceptable deviation from the designer's requirement, which is to design to an optimal performance at 230V. Above 253V and it gets dangerous. Below 216V and there is insufficient voltage to physically start certain equipment, electric motors for example. The range is to do with these parameters, not equipment life expectancy, hence the reference in the BS to the problems associated with overvoltage and its effect on equipment life.

You could apply the same running within tolerances argument to a car. It will run on 82 octane right through to 100 octane, but if you put 82 octane in to it the engine will not last as long.

Yes equipment will work in the 216V to 253V range, but it may also break more quickly. If you put 230V+ in to a toroidal transformer power supply designed to work optimally at 230V then it will get hotter, which is not good for the rest of the electronics in the box. Put enough voltage in (250+) and that transformer will begin to vibrate, what some refer to a buzz or hum.

We are all adults and can all make our choices. However some of us base our choices on facts.

 

[Snooker]

For a Hi - Fi as an example

A designer will use say a transformer to step down the mains voltage to a lower value then convert it to direct current and use a regulator to make the voltage constant to allow for any normal mains voltage swings, this sort of thing applies to other products as well, so you are not relying on the limits of the mains input voltage, but the chosen smaller operating voltage which is regulated, other products will have regulators as well which try and keep the voltage constant irrespective of voltage swing within normal limits *smile*

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Only fools dispute facts but scholars are there to interpret them. I fear a collar is becoming as hot as some electronics when fed a too high voltage. All I will add is that no manufacturer should design to 230v since there is no country supplying this standard. They will surely design with the knowledge of the tolerances. None of this ofcourse suggests that your purchase was illadvised. Seems sensible based on the facts.

 

[Gazzip]

Only fools dispute facts but scholars are there to interpret them. I fear a collar is becoming as hot as some electronics when fed a too high voltage. All I will add is that no manufacturer should design to 230v since there is no country supplying this standard. They will surely design with the knowledge of the tolerances. None of this ofcourse suggests that your purchase was illadvised. Seems sensible based on the facts.

Frankly yes a little hot under the collar. This is frustrating.

230V is the manufacturers' brief because there is no Euro standard for Voltage. 230V is a "best fit" for all countries so yes they are designing to an optimum 230V, not to a range. Like I said in my previous post that range is chosen because all equipment will work within it. Not because it is the best/most efficient/least damaging working range for the equipment.

I posted this to share what I have learnt during my experience of sorting out an issue with my power amps. I have done that. I'm moving on.

 

[Vladimir]

Amplifiers have fuses, which protects them for current, but I rarely see an amp with MOVs or PTCs for protection from voltage surges.

 

[eggontoast]

This thread is funny *ROFL* , carry on children.

 

[Gazzip]

This thread is funny *ROFL* , carry on children.

Carry On Children?

With Sid James and Joan Sims?

 

[TrevC]

[

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

Source?

These figures are correct. However Trevor is refusing to accept the fact that anything above 230V is bad for equipment in spite of the FACTS stated in the British Standards:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Neither an amplifier or a TV set is a linear appliance. A modern TV will actually draw less current at a higher voltage because they all use switch mode power supplies, and most amplifiers are class AB with a low, usually regulated, quiescent current which means the power drawn increases with volume.

 

[Gazzip]

[

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

Source?

These figures are correct. However Trevor is refusing to accept the fact that anything above 230V is bad for equipment in spite of the FACTS stated in the British Standards:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Neither an amplifier or a TV set is a linear appliance. A modern TV will actually draw less current at a higher voltage because they all use switch mode power supplies, and most amplifiers are class AB with a low, usually regulated, quiescent current which only increases with volume.

For anybody who is interested (probably nobody by now and frankly I don't blame you, this is getting boring) please do a gooogle search for linear circuit, examples of. Number one on the list will be AMPLIFIERS.

I posted this information because it is interesting and because it could prove to be useful to anybody that has an unusually high mains voltage coming in to their domestic environment. However the thread is no use to man nor beast now that you have shat your, at best ill informed, at worst made up, nonsense all over it.

Been looking through some of your other posts. Looks like your modus operandi on the forum is to find a thread you can start a fight in, usually by arguing that black is actually white. Quite pathetic really.

 

[TrevC]

[

To convince me of anything you really need to know what you are talking about. You don't, so I'm unconvinced. There isn't a grey area except in your imagination, electrical equipment sold here will be designed to operate on the spread of mains voltages found here, ie 230v +10% -6%. Your 252 volts is within tolerance.

Source?

These figures are correct. However Trevor is refusing to accept the fact that anything above 230V is bad for equipment in spite of the FACTS stated in the British Standards:

"Overvoltage refers to voltage higher than the voltage at which equipment is designed to operate most effectively. It causes a reduction in equipment lifetime and increases in energy consumed with no improvement in performance. The 16th edition of the Wiring Regulations BS7671 makes the following statements in relation to overvoltage: “A 230V rated lamp used at 240 will achieve only 55% of its rated life” (referring to incandescent lamps) and “A 230V linear appliance used on a 240V supply will take 4.3% more current and will consume almost 9% more energy.”"

Neither an amplifier or a TV set is a linear appliance. A modern TV will actually draw less current at a higher voltage because they all use switch mode power supplies, and most amplifiers are class AB with a low, usually regulated, quiescent current which only increases with volume.

For anybody who is interested (probably nobody by now and frankly I don't blame you, this is getting boring) please do a gooogle search for linear circuit, examples of. Number one on the list will be AMPLIFIERS.

I posted this information because it is interesting and because it could prove to be useful to anybody that has an unusually high mains voltage coming in to their domestic environment. However the thread is no use to man nor beast now that you have shat your, at best ill informed, at worst made up, nonsense all over it.

Been looking through some of your other posts. Looks like your modus operandi on the forum is to find a thread you can start a fight in, usually by arguing that black is actually white. Quite pathetic really.

Facts are important.

Linear mains consumption is exhibited by purely resistive loads like light bulbs. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the linearity of amplifiers, which is about the voltage at the input always being the same proportion of the output.

Congratulations on finding a cure for a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Snooker]

Again, designers are fully aware of the normal mains voltage swings (tolerance +/- 10%), and design accordingly including there fuses used on the input to a product, and that the operating voltage of a product is chosen in most cases so that it is much less than the minimum input voltage value and the product will also include a regulator to make sure the operating voltage of the appliance is kept constant for normal input mains voltage swings

(If the input mains voltage stayed at the high swing value all the time as oppose to the low value all the time there would be no noticeable ageing to the product, as again it is fully designed into the products tolerances)

Light bulbs again are designed to operate completely fine within normal mains voltage swings without any ageing of the product, as the number of operational hours for a light bulb is worked out before hand making allowances for voltage swings etc

(But yes with a light bulb I suppose operating at the maximum swing value all the time, then that would slightly noticeably age the bulb more than if it was at the low end constantly but probably not by much, but again because the value fluctuates this is taken into condsideration for the light bulbs overall average life expectancy)