Turntable Advice

[crusaderlord]

I have never owned a turntable over c£50 in value and a few years back i got rid of all my vinyl from 20 years ago to fund a mid range cd based system. I havent really missed it.

But i am intrigued again and given some of my favourite music from the 80's has been remastered and re-released on vinyl this year i am interested in getting a turntable and just a few favourite records.

My question is given my cd and amplifier listed below, what price of turntable would i need to go for to get some kind of competing quality. The project debut III is one i could buy right now but i dont want to get a let down after listening to a much more expensive cd player. Would i need a rega p3-24 as a minimum or even spend more than this ?

So can someone who owns both decent cd and turntable give me some reference point to aim at.
Thanks

 

[John Duncan]

Well I have a 'decent' turntable (a Project RPM5.2), but whilst it has great qualities, it doesn't beat my CD player (a Primare D20), and in fact in some respects is not as good - though this could be a setup problem. On the other hand, I think if you got a Debut, you'd wonder what all the fuss was about, seeing as surface noise and rumble will be inherently worse the cheaper the turntable.

So in short, a tricky question - I do think that you need to get something half decent for you not to be disappointed, and my Project or the P3 would be where I'd start to look, but don't expect miracles......

 

[Anonymous]

Be very careful. A lot of the LPs being re-issued and re-mastered are not particularly good while some are frankly poor. Often the quality of the original release was much better, which means looking at the secondhand market.

 

[chebby]

The Rega P2 is a good place to start ("he would say that") and it's RB251 arm will get the best from any decent MM or high output MC cartridge.

£244 + cartridge + phono stage.

For convenience you can buy a Rega P2 with factory fitted/aligned Rega Bias 2 cartridge for a total of £294.

I know this deck sounds at least as good as the (CD73 derived) CD player in my Arcam Solo-Mini especially with the Ortofon 2M Blue that I am using now.

The Project Debut III has a pressed steel platter so cannot be used with any kind of Moving Coil cartridge.

 

[nads]

again i will put up a shout out for the Pro-Ject 2 Xperience SuperPack 2 with the excellent Ortofon MC Rondo Red cartridge

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=xperiencesp&cat=turntables&lang=en

 

[the record spot]

I've no idea what your combo sounds like, but I think you'd be looking at the P3-24 as a minimum, Audio Note TT1 or TT2 next, but if that's hitting the pocket hard, £500 will get you more for your money on the used market - Rega P5, Nottingham Horizon, Roksan Radius, and if you fancy a project (not Pro-ject I hasten to add, so pardon the pun), check out a good quality Garrard 401 or Technics for a long term endeavour. The end results are well worth it and the Garrard is a thing of joy to behold.

All the aforementioned used t/t's lie in the £500 bracket, but allow a fair bit more for the Garrard and the Technics to bring them up to spec (hence the idea that it's a project than a straight plug-in-and-play).

Catridges: Goldring 1022GX as a minimum, Ortofon 2M Blue likewise, but they can all handle more and better with ease. In other words, £100-£120 would be my minimum consideration at this level.

Phono Stage: Trichord Dino (£300) but sometimes found on a used deal for less. See also Graham Slee's product line. Cambridge Audio 640p as the barest of minimums here, but only if you are really stretched. It's very good, but in the company it'll be keeping, it's not an A-lister.

All depends on the sound you like and what you are prepared to pay to see if you really like LPs again. I'm guessing you sound unconvinced about your need for the format, so my best hint or tip would be to go for a good deck that requires minimal fuss. All IMO of course and enjoy!

 

[fatboyslimfast]

I'm probably going to get some grief here, but try and find a decent Pioneer PL-12d for around £30-40, and then spend £60 on a decent cartridge.

Now whilst I'm not going to suggest that it will beat your CD player, it will make a lovely musical, detailed sound that won't break the bank. I'm speaking as an ex-Roksan Radius owner here...

You can see from my system that it can still hold it's own with a more expensive setup.

But (speaking from experience) I wouldn't spend money on re-issues if you already have the album on CD. If you compare side-by-side then you will probably be disappointed. Keep the turntable for your existing stuff, and any 2nd hand stuff that might be out-of-print so to speak, and you won't go far wrong (and you can spend the other £400+ on 2nd hand vinyl - that could be nearly 100 albums!!

 

[crusaderlord]

Thanks all these replies were very helpful and helped me on the perspective. You read a lot how much better vinyl is all the time that you can beleive you are being shortchanged with cd sound. However it is much more about the quality of components and recordings.

Its going to take a bit of cash to get a comparable quality level to the cd player. I have to decide if i really want to invest in this as an alternative or as i suspect i may well just get a lower budget turntable to give me occasional alternatives and have a bit of fun with.

 

[the record spot]

Lots of choice below the £500, although I'd be tempted to suggest you try and get a good quality and well looked after Systemdek IIX (or one of the latter variants). Superb deck, you can usually pick one up for no more than £150, and with the right cartridge, it'll give anything up to the P3 a run for the money. Tweakable too. Look for one which has a rectangular hole for the armboard, the earlier ones are teardrop shaped.

 

[Anonymous]

hi crusaderlord, like you I gave up records upon the advent of cd and thought hallaluya no more of the annoying snap ,crackle, pop of vinyl.I had between 500 1000 lps.and just gave them away. retained a few albums-luckily.from what i remember vinyl is an excellent format and I thought the death nail for it has arrived with the replacement of cd. that being said, if you have the funds how about looking into a clearaudio emotion or a similar tt in it's price range.I think it would match up with your arcams nicely. I had a dual 714q. I was just out of high school when I purchaced my first serious kit. now I'm thinking just the same to revisit my youth. a dual 505 or emotion would I guess be on my list. cheers!

 

[crusaderlord]

Yes vinyl is one of those things you grow up with and then cast away thinking youll never need it again. But then as you grow older (well early 40's for me) you suddenly want to remember what you enjoyed about it all over again.

That said its not a must have - more a nice to have a play with it all again. I have my eye on a couple of 180g re-issues of Tubeway Army and Gary Numan. The packages looks great but i will need something to play them on.

Maybe for now ill stick with a £200 outlay max on a budget deck given its not really going to overthrow the cd collection but still gives me a new toy. Probably the Project Debut or the Rega P1 or P2.

 

[Terryff]

Just like to add weight to the comments about the pioneer pl112D, i bought one, spent money on fitting a goldring elektra crtridge and, considering it's age etc it has a lovley sound, maybe it is not quite sonically as good as my cd player (but i think it's about on a par given the nice timbre that records give you) but for less than £100 all in it has to be the fleabay undiscovered bargain of the year.

Putting it into context i bought a couple of dual decks previous to this and they were not a patch on the pioneer i eventually settled on.

Unless of course you want to soend £350 plus on something you are not sure you will use.ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Another nod for the PL112D - inexpensive, decent quality but capable of taking a decent cartridge. Bought mine for 12? while waiting for my Rega, put on an Ortofon OM20 cartridge and the sound was terrific. So much so, in fact, that I'm going to refurbish the turntable then see how it compares to the Rega.

 

[Anonymous]

I have an ikimi Linn cd player which was not far off £2,000. Purchased a good second hand LP12 on Ebay for £300 and put it into Linn for a service.

SHOCK it blew the ikimi out the water for sound quality. I was really surprised.

Don't know what turntable would be best for your system but can tell you that your in for a treat.

 

[crusaderlord]

I am edging towards Chebby's Rega P2 which is compromise between spending too much and getting a turntable i like the look and sound of review wise.

The best i can find it is for £274 new including the Bias cartridge which doesnt seem too expensive.

 

[crusaderlord]

Apologies for posting again.

I am pretty taken with owning a rega but think i will do it on the 2nd hand option where i can get an older Rega 2 or 3 for a much lower price.

My thought is that if i really take to it i can later upgrade the cartridge to the elys or maybe even better. Apart from the obvious condition concerns is there anything i should be aware of with the previous models of Rega 2 or 3.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Rega 2 - check the anti-skate. It can get rather over-zealous, meaning that on mine I had to have it set to just above zero to make the right amount. Secondly, always budget a tenner or so on a new belt.

Finally, I'm not a fan of Rega's carts. I just find them lacking in excitement...

If you do decide to upgrade, look to a Denon DL-110, Audio Technica AT-440MLa, Goldring...

 

[Anonymous]

I have a complete Linn system from new and wanted to add an LP12. So I bought the LP12 on Ebay and took it into a Linn dealer to get it serviced. In all the whole thing worked out just under £500. New I would have been over a grand.Very pleased indeed.

 

[crusaderlord]

Ok one last question in case someone has an idea on this.

A Rega 3 2nd hand on ebay tends to go for between £200 - £250 at the moment (if you look for a recent tonearm like the RB300)

A Rega P2 new sells for around £294.

Would a new Rega 2 be the better bet sound wise against say a 10 year old Rega 3 in good condition i.e. How much have turntables developed over the last few years to improve the value of the Regas.

I know the current Rega P3-24 is very highly regarded by WHF but i havent seen anything on the P2.

 

[the record spot]

My P3 was a 2001 purchase; is in good nick and with the AT440MLa cartridge on it, sounds superb. Punches well above its weight in no small way.

If you find a good secondhand model, you won't regret it. Plus, the RB300 arm is arguably better than the distinctly more fiddlesome RB301, so making it easier to remove or tweak (e.g. arm rewire) at a later date if you wish.

 

[chebby]

crusaderlord:A Rega 3 2nd hand on ebay tends to go for between £200 - £250 at the moment (if you look for a recent tonearm like the RB300)

The RB300 came out in 1983 so don't count on some of those Planar 3's being too 'recent'

crusaderlord:A Rega P2 new sells for around £294.

£244 for a brand new P2. It is only £294 if you want it with the Rega Bias 2 cartridge factory fitted.

crusaderlord:Would a new Rega 2 be the better bet sound wise against say a 10 year old Rega 3 in good condition i.e. How much have turntables developed over the last few years to improve the value of the Regas.

I know the current Rega P3-24 is very highly regarded by WHF but i havent seen anything on the P2.

You have not read me raving about both of them then?

In the past I have owned two Planar 3's. The first in 1983 when the RB300 version was launched and the second in 1996 (a blue one) that I used for a number of years.

The P3-24 (especially with TT-PSU) is so much better than both of those older models that it may as well be a completely different turntable.

I would say my (current version) Rega P2 is as good as any 10 - 26 year old Rega Planar 3 plus I have the added security of a 3 year warranty and knowing it has not been abused by some previous owner.

Ebay frequently throws up 'bitsa' Regas made up from 'bitsa' this model and that. I am frequently seeing people question some purchase with the wrong arm for instance.

 

[crusaderlord]

Thanks Chebby and Record Spot.

I will consider various price options but the Rega is my preference to start with in case it isnt something i take to long term.

 

[crusaderlord]

Update for those who have helped and so you know your advice wasnt wasted

Today i collected a Rega Planar 2 with an RB250 tonearm from c1990, bought of ebay from someone local. I was delighted to find an excellent condition one for £90. I was advised it may need a new belt but i have matched it directly with my cd on the same album and it never lost a beat. I doubt i can lose on it even if i dont take to vinyl long term.

Initial impression was that £ for £ against my cd it is amazing value - very close tonally and in presentation. My CD player is clearer and more detailed but given the price difference it wasnt by very much really and i can see a real value in turntables.

I actually have no idea what cartridge it has - i know it came with the Rega when it was bought in 1990. I have placed a picture of it here in case someone can advise me.
http://www.crusadersgolf.co.uk/html/latest_news.html

I can consider replacing or upgrading it as i do have the budget for it given i expected to pay more for the table. If i went for the Ortofon 2M Blue would it be a straight plug in or is there more to it ?

 

[the record spot]

It's an Audio Technica, the AT-95E by the looks of things. Nice cartridge, but the deck can handle better for sure.

 

[chebby]

crusaderlord:I actually have no idea what cartridge it has - i know it came with the Rega when it was bought in 1990.

Your cartridge looks like an Audio Technica AT95E (I think)

That means you can still get a replacement stylus for it. (Advisable for peace of mind and they are not expensive.)

Oh, and get the new belt anyway. (Make sure it is from a Rega dealer. Plenty of 'iffy' non-Rega sourced belts out there.) It will improve the timing and pace even though you don't hear any problems with the old one.