Tone controls....taboo?

[davedotco]

I really do not get Loudness controls.

Fletcher-Munsen shows how our ears loose sensitivity at low frequencies and low levels. This is perfectly natural and applies to everything we hear.

So, logically, it is entirely natural that recorded music played back a low levels will be affected and this, to me, sounds perfectly normal.

Using a Loudness control to add extra bass at low levels sounds so unrealistic, I simply can not understand how anyone could think otherwise, though I know some do, wierd...!

 

[matthewpiano]

Its time the flat earth mentality was put to bed. Nothing wrong with judiciously designed and used tone controls if they help to enhance your enjoyment of some recordings.

The hi-fi world has become too obsessed with rights and wrongs and all too often loses sight of what really matters - how much you enjoy your listening.

back with the denon ? nice turntable btw , hows it sounding with the at95,

as 'sound for your pound' goes it can't be beat imo

Yes, back with the Denon kit. The PL12D sounds superb with the AT95e, tracks well right across the record, and is somehow more satisfying musically than the RP3 and Elys 2. It really makes me want to play vinyl, even though the CD player also sounds excellent.

 

[davedotco]

Its time the flat earth mentality was put to bed. Nothing wrong with judiciously designed and used tone controls if they help to enhance your enjoyment of some recordings.

The hi-fi world has become too obsessed with rights and wrongs and all too often loses sight of what really matters - how much you enjoy your listening.

back with the denon ? nice turntable btw , hows it sounding with the at95,

as 'sound for your pound' goes it can't be beat imo

Yes, back with the Denon kit. The PL12D sounds superb with the AT95e, tracks well right across the record, and is somehow more satisfying musically than the RP3 and Elys 2. It really makes me want to play vinyl, even though the CD player also sounds excellent.

At the risk of incuring the wrath of a few contributors, what you really need is a mint, un-upgraded (beyond Valhalla standard) LP12 with the original silver LVV 'Basic' arm. This used to come with the conical AT95 but the '95e was a ready replacement and, bought in bulk, ridiculously cheap.

This was the player we used to demonstrate against allcomers, including PL12s, Micro Seki, Sansui, trio and the rest. You think the PL12 sounded good, you should have heard this.

For what it is worth the Rega player with their own cartridges did nothing for me, we use to get some grief from Rega for fitting alternatives. The latest rega players seem like a step backwards compared to the classic Rega 3.

 

[tonky]

I'm becoming all nostalgic now - with the classic RB300 arm - ortofon vms 20E11 (or M20FL).

Such musicality - how did they do it.!. And (while I am at it) the fabulous Jim Rogers 149 speakers (maybe for another thread) - but with kit speakers being popular on this forum these days (IPL or IQ etc) . It would be great if these (or something based on them ) was available in kit form. .

tonky

 

[fr0g]

Very late to the party, but I would not buy an amp without tone controls (or at least presets such as those on an AV receiver).

Listening late at night, at low volume, it makes sense to boost the bass, simply because of the way our ears work.

Systems with no tone controls make no sense and I don't buy that they affect the sound quality. It's simply an OCD audiophile nonsense...IMHO.

So there are some specs that are important....you are now moved closer to 3! *diablo*

Not really. More "features that are important". It's fairly irrelevant anyway, if I was in the market for another amplifier I would buy an AV receiver

 

[chebby]

Its time the flat earth mentality was put to bed. Nothing wrong with judiciously designed and used tone controls if they help to enhance your enjoyment of some recordings.

The hi-fi world has become too obsessed with rights and wrongs and all too often loses sight of what really matters - how much you enjoy your listening.

back with the denon ? nice turntable btw , hows it sounding with the at95,

as 'sound for your pound' goes it can't be beat imo

Yes, back with the Denon kit. The PL12D sounds superb with the AT95e, tracks well right across the record, and is somehow more satisfying musically than the RP3 and Elys 2. It really makes me want to play vinyl, even though the CD player also sounds excellent.

At the risk of incuring the wrath of a few contributors, what you really need is a mint, un-upgraded (beyond Valhalla standard) LP12 with the original silver LVV 'Basic' arm. This used to come with the conical AT95 but the '95e was a ready replacement and, bought in bulk, ridiculously cheap.

This was the player we used to demonstrate against allcomers, including PL12s, Micro Seki, Sansui, trio and the rest. You think the PL12 sounded good, you should have heard this.

For what it is worth the Rega player with their own cartridges did nothing for me, we use to get some grief from Rega for fitting alternatives. The latest rega players seem like a step backwards compared to the classic Rega 3.

The LP12 was £374 (+ £46 for the Basik LVV) in the 1984 Radfords advert I just looked at.

Valhalla mods weren't on sale until May 1982 and the Basik LVV tonearm wasn't around until 1983. So if you were comparing a post Valhalla LP12 (+ Basik LVV) with Pl12D, KD-1033, SR222 Mk2 and Micro-Seiki MB10 then everything but the LP12 must have either been very old stock or second-hand back then.

Maybe you have a whole bunch of other decks (from Sansui, Trio, Micro Seiki, Pioneer) in mind rather than those mid-late 1970s budget 'classics'? Nevertheless, they were all around £50 - £100 (depending on where/when bought) and not a very fair comparison with an LP12 + LVV combo costing £420

 

[matthewpiano]

Yes, PL12D was often around the £75 mark. If that PL12D was originally sold in 1975, the equivalent price today would be £482.17 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator - not much different from the price of a new RP3.

 

[chebby]

Yes, PL12D was often around the £75 mark. If that PL12D was originally sold in 1975, the equivalent price today would be £482.17 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator - not much different from the price of a new RP3.

The basic LP12 package (Majik) is now £2700 plus £157 for a lid (not included).

 

[davedotco]

Its time the flat earth mentality was put to bed. Nothing wrong with judiciously designed and used tone controls if they help to enhance your enjoyment of some recordings.

The hi-fi world has become too obsessed with rights and wrongs and all too often loses sight of what really matters - how much you enjoy your listening.

back with the denon ? nice turntable btw , hows it sounding with the at95,

as 'sound for your pound' goes it can't be beat imo

Yes, back with the Denon kit. The PL12D sounds superb with the AT95e, tracks well right across the record, and is somehow more satisfying musically than the RP3 and Elys 2. It really makes me want to play vinyl, even though the CD player also sounds excellent.

At the risk of incuring the wrath of a few contributors, what you really need is a mint, un-upgraded (beyond Valhalla standard) LP12 with the original silver LVV 'Basic' arm. This used to come with the conical AT95 but the '95e was a ready replacement and, bought in bulk, ridiculously cheap.

This was the player we used to demonstrate against allcomers, including PL12s, Micro Seki, Sansui, trio and the rest. You think the PL12 sounded good, you should have heard this.

For what it is worth the Rega player with their own cartridges did nothing for me, we use to get some grief from Rega for fitting alternatives. The latest rega players seem like a step backwards compared to the classic Rega 3.

The LP12 was £374 (+ £46 for the Basik LVV) in the 1984 Radfords advert I just looked at.

Valhalla mods weren't on sale until May 1982 and the Basik LVV tonearm wasn't around until 1983. So if you were comparing a post Valhalla LP12 (+ Basik LVV) with Pl12D, KD-1033, SR222 Mk2 and Micro-Seiki MB10 then everything but the LP12 must have either been very old stock or second-hand back then.

Maybe you have a whole bunch of other decks (from Sansui, Trio, Micro Seiki, Pioneer) in mind rather than those mid-late 1970s budget 'classics'? Nevertheless, they were all around £50 - £100 (depending on where/when bought) and not a very fair comparison with an LP12 + LVV combo costing £420

Morning Chebby.

I am talking around 1980-84 here. The pre Valhalla 'red button' LP12 was used initially with the early Rega silver arm, built by Acos and available for around £25. There were a fair number of decent catridges, AT, Ortofon and Nagaoka come to mind. If my memory serves, the entry level package ('80-81) was around £300, still a fair amount of money in those days. I recall the 'classic' setup including the £90 Creek and MS 20 speakers originally cost less than £500.

The prices and performance improved with the Valhalla mods, then the LVV arm, so your pricing is on the ball. Yes most of the decks I mentioned were much cheaper, but that was prompted by Mathewpiano's evocation of the PL12D (I had variously a PL12ac, a PL12 and the direct drive PL71), we did plenty of comparisons against more expensive decks too, Thorens, Technics, Ariston, Walker, Systemdeck, Pink Triangle and the rest, so often not a mismatch price wise.

You have to remember the circumstances too, turntables were not considered important at that time, so the demonstrations were a considerable eye opener for many people. Yes it shifted the emphasis onto the 'fromt end', something Linn exploited ruthlessly in later years, but it did produce the best value systems at that time. It was also unusual for the dealer to sell 'by demonstration' and this combined with the 'free' delivery and set up service on offer allowed a large number of non technical music lovers to put good sounding setups in their homes for what was, at that time, reasonably sensible prices.

I am not attempting to be a Linn apologist here, I was fed up to the back teeth with them well before the end of the 80s, but the combination of enthusiastic, helpful dealers, good affordable (mostly british) equipment made the early 80s a great time for the music lover.

 

[chebby]

I was 'there' Dave. By the end of 1984 (I was 21) I had a Walker CJ 55 with a custom gloss hardwood plinth (normally matt), clear lid (normally smoked) and Rega arm board + RB300 (normally Linn arm board + LVV). The dealer had never seen one like it and it cost me a small fortune (relatively) and tooks ages to be delivered. (Shortage of OEM RB300s blamed.)

I had an entry level AT MC cartridge (I forget the model) and used an 'old' NAD 3020b and (older) AR18s' until the following year (or so) when I bought the QED A240-SA II and matching T260 tuner and Sony WM--6DC cassette recorder. (My 'core' system for a number of years afterwards*.)

* Our first daughter and a new house both arriving in 1985 scuppered any significant hi-fi spending for the thick end of a decade afterwards.

 

[ID.]

Let's get DSP and intelligent digital eq into all products!

Fixed it for you (maybe for me?). It's high time it became far more widespread.

 

[paulkebab]

my next purchase will be an amplifier and it will have to have tone controls for two reasons. One, as many people have said, recordings differ so much; when your system is capable of reproducing those differences that will sometimes not quite agree with your ears what is the option? Two, I mainly use mine on the Yamaha AS500 to reduce bass on most stuff when the speakers start to warm up a bit. I use the variable loudness mainly with the AKG's as they are a bit too 'mid' for me normally, and increase the bass and treble slightly whichever pair of cans I use. To not have this facility will have me looking elsewhere, interesting to read what Naim are doing too.

 

[davedotco]

I mentioned above my aversion to regular tone controls, but naturally it got me thinking.

I am perfectly happy using eq, just not the blunt instruments that are provided on most amplifiers, so I started investigating and found this.

The DSPeaker AntiMode dual core is a flexible room eq, regular broard band equaliser, multi parametric equaliser, bass filter and dac pre-amp.

You can equalise (automatically) for bass room modes, use gentle eq to adjust the light/dark balace and parametric eq to deal with any specific nasties. If the system is not too complex, it will function as a dac/preamp too, with remote control and an analogue input, it has it's own ADC. All for just £680...!

 

[matt49]

I mentioned above my aversion to regular tone controls, but naturally it got me thinking.

I am perfectly happy using eq, just not the blunt instruments that are provided on most amplifiers, so I started investigating and found this.

Yes, a very good little 'toolbox'. I'm using one with my Martin Logans. EQed the bass to remove a couple of spikes around 40/60Hz, put in a gentle house curve to lift the bass and some tilt to limit the HF. Sounds great.

And it's stupidly easy to use.

 

[davedotco]

I mentioned above my aversion to regular tone controls, but naturally it got me thinking.

I am perfectly happy using eq, just not the blunt instruments that are provided on most amplifiers, so I started investigating and found this.

Yes, a very good little 'toolbox'. I'm using one with my Martin Logans. EQed the bass to remove a couple of spikes around 40/60Hz, put in a gentle house curve to lift the bass and some tilt to limit the HF. Sounds great.

And it's stupidly easy to use.

That is very much the point.

DSP has been available to those with the requisite computer skills for some time but this is the first 'serious' device that I have found that is hi-fi friendly.

For my own use, which involves just one serious source, it seems ideal, room correction, regular eq and a remote control dac/pre-amp all in one package. Once set up just power, input select and volume, all from the remote. Perfect.

 

[matt49]

That is very much the point.

DSP has been available to those with the requisite computer skills for some time but this is the first 'serious' device that I have found that is hi-fi friendly.

For my own use, which involves just one serious source, it seems ideal, room correction, regular eq and a remote control dac/pre-amp all in one package. Once set up just power, input select and volume, all from the remote. Perfect.

I've used it like that, straight into a power amp, and it's very neat and simple. I'm currently using it in pure digital mode. Sonos Connect >optical SPDIF> Anti-mode >optical SPDIF> Audiolab M-DAC. It may just be my sentimental attachment to the M-DAC's analog output stage, but I do like it this way. Anyway, the important thing is the versatility.

EDIT: I've just switched over to analog out mode. Sounds great.

P.S. I find that inserting a psycho-acoustic 3kHz dip works really well. Again, child's play to do.

 

[matt49]

Here are before and after traces of the LF response (16Hz to 270Hz).

Blue = before

Purple = after

This shows pretty clearly how the Anti-Mode works. It tries to get the whole of the LF response up to the level of the highest peak (i.e. around 65Hz in the blue trace). So after EQ it's fairly flat from just above 30Hz throug to 270Hz.

It can't do much about the worst bass nulls, e.g. the deep trough just above 80Hz. This probably doesn't matter, as very sharp troughs aren't audible. But it does improve the very low bass quite a bit: so 30Hz is about 17dB down before EQ, and 4dB down afterwards.

It'd be interesting to see whether a sub would contribute anything.

N.b. The above plots don't show a lift that I subsequently EQed in from 100Hz to 500Hz.

 

[SteveR750]

IIRC the debate and decline of the use of tone controls (many amp manufacturers started using "direct" and "tone defeat" buttons as USPs) was as a result of the belief that being in the analogue circuits, their use was introducing unwanted distortion (probably phase rather than HD?). Obviously using a DSP avoids this, providing it's conducted with sufficient bit depth, J River for example does this using a 64 bit resampled signal, so theoretically there should be no artifacts. I never used tone controls when I had them (for the reasons Dave outlined) but I do use the DSP in the media player to apply a gentle 60Hz lift to offset slightly a null and the ATCs roll off.

Of course, DSP is completely unacceptable if you're chasing the holy grail of bit perfection...

 

[Vladimir]

So tone controls bring life and musical richness to sound. That flat line is clinical death.