To toe in or NOT to toe in?

[Dom]

Hi,

I read the speaker reviews here at WHF, alot of the time WHF toe in, a bit, and with better audio results, and who am I to argue with amazing test gear and experience.

I disagree however, I been testing it. Best results have been no toe in. With rear and side reflections sounding right, helping to expand the experience.

Why does WHF toe in?

 

[Paul.]

All rooms are different. What sounds best in a treated room isn't necessarily going to sound best in my little flat.

(fwiw toeing in does sound best in my little flat)

 

[Dom]

Fair play.

I have tried toeing in, but to my ears sounds inferoir.

 

[plastic penguin]

Most speakers will sound slightly different from toe in and toe out. When I had my RS6s toed in the soundstage sounded a little congested. Toe out and they sounded too open. I found, more luck than judgement, somewhere in between was the best compromise. Likewise with the PMCs, I have these virtual toe out or straight ahead.

Most speakers, however, will have varying dispersion rates. It really is a trial and error experiement..

 

[Dom]

Thanks for the reply.

I guess if it sounds right, thats the key.

I will add that setting up a speaker so that the reflections seem in time, then that should be the aim.

 

[Dom]

Most speakers, however, will have varying dispersion rates.

Could you explain what that means, please.

 

[Rethep]

I think trying gives the best result. Mine are a little (asymmetrically) toed in because otherwise the (asymmetric) room would have too much influence on the sound!

Especially voices (mostly in the centre of the stage) suffer from bad placement. That's also the point to listen to, to get that right. Listen for an image that is (not) hollow, and voices that are (not) steady in the image (reflections from walls).

 

[Andrewjvt]

You need to read the owners manual as some speakers sound best pointing straight ahead while other sound best toed in. Im sure your room plays a part also and the position.

 

[plastic penguin]

Most speakers, however, will have varying dispersion rates.

Could you explain what that means, please.

I'm no techno expert but brands like Tannoy use a dual concentric drivers which is claimed to give a wider sound dispersion, as does Kefs Uni Q drivers. It's alleged that compared to standard drivers, which gives you a narrower field. But I've only compared Kef LS50s with my PMCs and I found the PMCs to be wider... this could attributed to my room size and acoustics.

 

[stereoman]

Hi,

I read the speaker reviews here at WHF, alot of the time WHF toe in, a bit, and with better audio results, and who am I to argue with amazing test gear and experience.

I disagree however, I been testing it. Best results have been no toe in. With rear and side reflections sounding right, helping to expand the experience.

Why does WHF toe in?

I truly believe that it all comes down to the quality of speakers. Absolutely no toeing in is necessary with good quality speakers. You should be able to have an off axis listen without a loss of detail. The same applies to the other sound enhancing techniques like sand boxes , bricks etc that in case of a good engineered sound is completely unnecessary. The point is to find a suitable to your taste well made speakers. From my experience I got several ones that I was not happy with until I got Leema Acoustics Xero ( I always give credit to them here ) No toeing , nothing just pure off axis listen. Sound wonderful.

 

[andyjm]

I truly believe that it all comes down to the quality of speakers. Absolutely no toeing in is necessary with good quality speakers. You should be able to have an off axis listen without a loss of detail. The same applies to the other sound enhancing techniques like sand boxes , bricks etc that in case of a good engineered sound is completely unnecessary. The point is to find a suitable to your taste well made speakers. From my experience I got several ones that I was not happy with until I got Leema Acoustics Xero ( I always give credit to them here ) No toeing , nothing just pure off axis listen. Sound wonderful.

You might have a point if all the sound did was leave the speaker and shoot straight into your ear, but unless you live in an anechoic chamber, it doesn't. A significant portion of the sound comes from wall reflections, and angling the speakers will change the amount and angle that the sound hits the side walls. This in turn will change the sound you perceive. So even if the speakers have wonderful off axis performance, toe in may improve the sound (or make it worse come to that) depending on the specifics of room shape and wall treatment.

Although slightly niche, I would also point out that electrostatics which have a large planar radiator are extremely sensitive to toe in. Martin Logan owners (such as myself) fiddle around for hours with torches and mirrors to obtain the correct toe in angle.

 

[ID.]

Every speaker I've had in any of my rooms has sounded better with varying degress of toe in.

Current speakers have instructions to have the tweeter pointing to the listening position, and I think they sound best with this heavier toe in.

 

[spiny norman]

I truly believe that it all comes down to the quality of speakers. Absolutely no toeing in is necessary with good quality speakers.

I truly believe that's nonsense: the 'quality' of the speakers has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they sound better toed-in or not. Some speakers may be designed with wider dispersion, but the chances are that will be achieved at some expense to the precision of soundstage focus and imaging.

The room, the listening position and so on have much more bearing on the matter, and as several have already said, deciding whether or not to toe the speakers in, and by how much, is very much a matter of personal taste and circumstances.

 

[Native_bon]

I would argee with Stereoman to some extent. Would not say it is totally dependent on the quality of the speakers, but some speakers are much fuzzy about placement in the room than others.

 

[chebby]

Toe-in enough.

I've read more than one manufacturer suggest the imaginary centre lines of each cabinet crossing just in front of the listener.

Anyway, it's so easy to get right for you and your room. Start with no toe-in then try a little. If it sounds better, keep increasing the amount until it starts to sound worse.

 

[BigH]

Depends on the speakers and the room, some speakers are more directional than others. With mine it does not seem to make any difference, I even tried them toe-out, so I have them slightly toe-in for looks. Probably depends how far apart you have them as well. My last speakers were the same, had them slightly toe-in.

So I would say there are no fixed rules, experiment until you get the best sound. Remember WHF has fully treated room so that may make a difference. Only one demo have I had them crossing in front of me and that was with Tannoys.

 

[matthewpiano]

I have spent many hours with many different pairs of speakers playing around with toe-in and more general positioning over the years. I believe the answer is to trial by listening and settle with the positioning and toe-in that sounds best to you.

My Wharfedales are barely toed-in at all and are positioned in an equalateral triangle with the listening position, and about 40cm from the rear wall. They sound beautifully focused and balanced in this position, and they can also be enjoyed from a range of other listening positions.

I find my Dynaudio DM2/6 much more specific. They sound best with quite a bit of toe-in, need more clearance from the rear wall (at least 50cm), and there is a definite sweet-spot listening position. They're very talented speakers and have some wonderful qualities, but they are much fussier than the Wharfedales for general musical enjoyment.