The WHF Film Club

[BenLaw]

Thanks Ben, you've obviously spent some time considering the film in great depth.

Cheers Mike. Kind of, it's one of the few films I've liked enough from renting to want to buy and when the reception here appeared to be generally negative I wanted to do it justice, within my limited capabilities.

We also conclude with the mushroom cloud, symbolic of oblivion and the end of all things, rather than merely our protagonist's story.

In the book, K is killed with a knife through the heart, but in the film by an explosion followed by the mushroom cloud. This does open the possibility that there is some cold war symbolism employed here - we have migrated from the death of an individual, to the death/obivion of a whole society.

I wasn't particularly going for a Cold War thing, although I agree there's an obvious link there with the bomb. I was more talking about the portrayal of an oppressive, intrusive regime usually being associated with the soviets (think 1984). Welles makes us (in the west) think about this without dismissing it easily as somewhere else's problem by giving a more universal portrayal, as I described.

However, it combines this (without ever feeling uneven, for me) with obvious Western influences, such as the classically American typing pool and super computer and the French cathedral / station.

When considering the locations, it is worth considering the following, exracted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_(1962_film)

In Paris, Welles had planned to shoot the interiors of his film at the Bois de Boulogne studios. Instead, he used the Gare d'Orsay, an abandoned Parisian railway station. Welles rearranged his set design to accommodate this new setting, and he later defended his decision to film at Gare d'Orsay in an interview ....where he stated: "Everything was improvised at the last moment, because the whole physical concept of my film was quite different. It was based on the absence of sets. And the gigantic nature of the sets, which people have objected to, is partly due to the fact that the only setting I had was that old abandoned station.

This does mean that how the film appeared on-screen, was probably different to how Welles had initially envisaged, when writing the screenplay. However this does not rule out the possibility that the locations/screen sets, ended up working better than originally envisaged.

That's interesting, thanks. I remember there was some very good stuff in the extras. If I get a chance to see them again in a sensible period I will post anything relevant.

You would seem to be right about the changes in set / location. I seem to recall him saying the station was a last minute thing.

Like most / all Welles' films this one has an interesting and difficult history. I recall them getting the actual film reels out of the country was problematic for some reason and the degradation of the film had an influence on how the film looked.

I've seen The Magnificent Ambersons and F for Fake recently and each has its own complex history and editing saga. Welles considered his favourite job to be as an editor. I'm guessing this film may have got closest to his intended vision, and thus was his favourite film (or joint favourite, depending on when he's quoted from).

 

[BenLaw]

It is worth reading this article about the book The Trial

sites.google.com/site/dtwchu/interests/trial

It makes a strong case for the book being a surrealist description of Kafkas subconcious thoughts/dreams about both the futility of his work within the legal system, and his belief that living his life as a Jew in Europe, meant that you were always on trial and being assessed by unseen judges (ie neighbours, anti-semites, society). The only escape from this living trial, was death.

Also handy info, thanks. I'd commented that on a purely surrealist reading of the film we never have an explanation behind the dream / nightmare. I'm guessing this isn't formally problematic but is in contrast to Mulholland Drive, where there is both a real and dream state, which inform one another (and indeed are required to interpret the other). There's probably enough in the film to give a sufficient explanation behind the dream (ambitious young man, a faceless cog in an enormous workplace, sexually frustrated) but it's interesting to know the relevance to Kafka himself.

 

[BenLaw]

Understanding what filmmaking pioneers sought to achieve is very useful when trying to read a film. So if we watch examples of early surrealist cinema, and appreciate that the surrealist movement was founded on a desire to represent the Freudian unconscious,

That reminder fortifies me in my tentative suggestions around the meaning of the portrayal of women in the film. The obvious interpretation seems to be that it is a subconscious response to the protagonist's own sexual frustration / repression.

 

[expat_mike]

No one else has made any comments. I think that it is only fair to ask if any of the other members have any aspects of The Trial that they would like to discuss?

 

[BenLaw]

Bump for comments from the other four members! If you didn't like it what was the reason? Has anything said made you think about it any differently? How do you like it compared to any other Welles' films?

 

[richardw42]

I think whatever message a film has, you have to be entertained by it. Otherwise what's the point ?

my previous post is pretty much all I have to say about it.

But I have found some of the discussion interesting.

 

[expat_mike]

Nobody's discussing the Trial.

Personally, i dont like it. Not sure what it was all about. Obviously a poke at the justice system. What else ?

I haver to say Anthony Perkins was extrordinary, but it did become a bit tiring / Monty Python.

Is this the previous post you are referring to?

 

[richardw42]

That's the one. Not much to it, was there

 

[strapped for cash]

The obvious interpretation seems to be that it is a subconscious response to the protagonist's own sexual frustration / repression.

The early surrealists were obsessed with the subject.

I can't think of a single surrealist film that isn't about sex on some level, while certain surrealist works are about nothing else.

Sorry to be a pedant, but as we're discussing surrealism's rooting in Freudian theory, it should be "unconscious" rather than "subconscious."

 

[strapped for cash]

I think whatever message a film has, you have to be entertained by it. Otherwise what's the point ?

That's quite a bold statement!

No artistic medium should be reduced singularly to the realm of entertainment.

 

[BenLaw]

The obvious interpretation seems to be that it is a subconscious response to the protagonist's own sexual frustration / repression.

The early surrealists were obsessed with the subject.

I can't think of a single surrealist film that isn't about sex on some level, while certain surrealist works are about nothing else.

Sorry to be a pedant, but as we're discussing surrealism's rooting in Freudian theory, it should be "unconscious" rather than "subconscious."

I'm down with pedantry and happily stand corrected.

Do you have examples of early surrealist films which are solely about sex?

 

[strapped for cash]

Well, L'Age d'Or is about a couple trying to get in on, only to meet obstacles to sexual union at every possible encounter.

Sticking with Bunuel, Belle de Jour is about a woman who can't **** her husband. Her repressed sexual impulses therefore achieve expression through prostitution. (I agree with Michael Atkinson's description of the film as a "silly little masterpiece.")

Oh, and then there's That Obscure Object of Desire (Bunuel again), which is about an old man's sexual obsession with a young woman.

Perhaps I should amend my original statement to say that Bunuel was obsessed with sex, though as I say, I'm struggling to think of a surrealist film that isn't at least partly about this subject.

 

[strapped for cash]

Do you have examples of early surrealist films which are solely about sex?

I also stumbled across this short video on the Guardian website, which seems a nice introduction:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/video/2014/apr/23/peter-capaldi-surrealist-art-sex-video

I get that two of the films I named above aren't early surrealist works, though Bunuel was an early surrealist.

 

[BenLaw]

Well, L'Age d'Or is about a couple trying to get in on, only to meet obstacles to sexual union at every possible encounter.

Sticking with Bunuel, Belle de Jour is about a woman who can't **** her husband. Her repressed sexual impulses therefore achieve expression through prostitution. (I agree with Michael Atkinson's description of the film as a "silly little masterpiece.")

Oh, and then there's That Obscure Object of Desire (Bunuel again), which is about an old man's sexual obsession with a young woman.

Perhaps I should amend my original statement to say that Bunuel was obsessed with sex, though as I say, I'm struggling to think of a surrealist film that isn't at least partly about this subject.

Thanks for that. I already have L'Age d'Or on my lovefilm list, probably from you having mentioned it before. It only appears as a set with Un Chien Andalou, so god knows what I'll get when I promote it up the list. I've added the other two, which are both out on blu ray.

I've watched a load of interesting stuff recently that I keep meaning to find time to post / ask questions about, but while you're here, does Repo Man fall within your period / area of speciailty?

 

[strapped for cash]

does Repo Man fall within your period / area of speciailty?

I'm not sure I'd go that far.* It's probably the best part of a decade since I last saw the film.

As for scholarly discussion of Repo Man, from what I recall (and it's a while since I read up on cult cinema), it's often described as a "prefabricated cult film."

In other words, the film was carefully designed to appeal to cult sensibilities, rather than a legitimate underground phenomenon that gained a fanbase. In many ways, Alex Cox was doing what Tarantino later perfected.

What did you think of Repo Man?

* NB, I wouldn't describe surrealism as an "area of speciality," either. I haven't written about surrealist cinema. It's more a hobby, or interest that's grown over time.

Oh, and my above post should read "get it on," not "get in on." I'm guessing you worked that out already.

 

[strapped for cash]

I also meant to ask if you got round to watching The Pervert's Guide to Ideology? If so, what did you think?

 

[BenLaw]

does Repo Man fall within your period / area of speciailty?

I'm not sure I'd go that far.* It's probably the best part of a decade since I last saw the film.

You have told me what it was before. In my head it covers 'Hollywood' of the 1970s onwards.

As for scholarly discussion of Repo Man, from what I recall (and it's a while since I read up on cult cinema), it's often described as a "prefabricated cult film."

In other words, the film was carefully designed to appeal to cult sensibilities, rather than a legitimate underground phenomenon that gained a fanbase. In many ways, Alex Cox was doing what Tarantino later perfected.

Interesting comparison given the shiny boot / briefcase angle. Tarantino comparisons were swimming round my head, although rather nebulously.

What did you think of Repo Man?

I liked a lot of it, mostly in the first half or two thirds. Overall I felt I was missing something and should have been liking it more. It would probably take a while to rationalise my thoughts properly and I'm not sure the film is worth the effort.

Oh, and my above post should read "get it on," not "get in on." I'm guessing you worked that out already.

Yeah, I got that. I think I've also already worked out three of the four letters you used asterisks for.

 

[BenLaw]

I also meant to ask if you got round to watching The Pervert's Guide to Ideology? If so, what did you think?

Not yet, I watched Waste Land from my DVR instead the other day, which is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen. I'll be sure to post when I have.

 

[strapped for cash]

I think I've also already worked out three of the four letters you used asterisks for.

Keep working on it.

I'd watch Belle de Jour via LoveFilm, assuming it's available.

I just checked on Amazon, and the BD has jumped in price since I bought it. So, it seems, have all other Studio Canal Collection BDs. I think they're now mostly out of print, which perhaps explains why.

 

[strapped for cash]

I watched Waste Land from my DVR instead the other day, which is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen.

I meant to watch that when it first came out.

I remember scouring cinema listings, but no local cinema saw fit to screen it. This happens with a fair number of films. I often forget about them until Film4 sticks them on at 2am.

As you've argued before, I should really sign up to LoveFilm. I'm put off by the prospect of lower quality streamed video, though I probably need to get over my AV snobbery.

 

[BenLaw]

I think I've also already worked out three of the four letters you used asterisks for.

Keep working on it.

I'd watch Belle de Jour via LoveFilm, assuming it's available.

I just checked on Amazon, and the BD has jumped in price since I bought it. So, it seems, have all other Studio Canal Collection BDs. I think they're now mostly out of print, which perhaps explains why.

Ah, didn't know that. I have a few in my wishlist waiting for the price to go down, and it seems to be going up. Wanted to get Delicatessen but it's over 20 quid.

 

[BenLaw]

I watched Waste Land from my DVR instead the other day, which is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen.

I meant to watch that when it first came out.

I remember scouring cinema listings, but no local cinema saw fit to screen it. This happens with a fair number of films. I often forget about them until Film4 sticks them on at 2am.

I haven't had cause to look for some time, but it certainly used to be the case that I could only see the vast majority of documentaries at Cornerhouse, and if it wasn't on there it would be impossible. Well worth checking out if it comes back on Film4.

As you've argued before, I should really sign up to LoveFilm. I'm put off by the prospect of lower quality streamed video, though I probably need to get over my AV snobbery.

Despite talking about it for so long, I seem to have failed to express how I actually use the service! I haven't streamed a single film using Lovefilm, I too would have concerns over the quality. (Although I'm aware of at least one film, The Mad Monkey, which cannot be obtained on disc but can be streamed.) I use it as a disc rental service, so have always watched the blu ray where available or the DVD if that is the only release. This is what I would recommend to you. I have two discs at one time and find watching three in a week fairly do-able.

 

[strapped for cash]

Fair enough. I know there's the disc-by-post option, which makes most sense.

I had a quick browse to see what's available, and the selection is quite broad. A couple of films I've mentioned before are available by post:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Decasia-The-State-Of-Decay/dp/B00ERVT5EU/ref=sr_1_1?s=video-rental&ie=UTF8&qid=1400676406&sr=1-1&keywords=decasia

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Head-On/dp/B00ERVQAVG/ref=sr_1_1?s=video-rental&ie=UTF8&qid=1400676432&sr=1-1&keywords=head+on

I think you'd appreciate the first and love the second.

 

[expat_mike]

I think I've also already worked out three of the four letters you used asterisks for.

Keep working on it.

I'd watch Belle de Jour via LoveFilm, assuming it's available.

I just checked on Amazon, and the BD has jumped in price since I bought it. So, it seems, have all other Studio Canal Collection BDs. I think they're now mostly out of print, which perhaps explains why.

Ah, didn't know that. I have a few in my wishlist waiting for the price to go down, and it seems to be going up. Wanted to get Delicatessen but it's over 20 quid.

Only 15 euros incl post

http://www.amazon.fr/Delicatessen-Blu-ray-Marie-Laure-Dougnac/dp/B00275EHVE/ref=sr_1_5?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1400693803&sr=1-5&keywords=delicatessen

I look out for the second hand copies going cheap if possible. Things may change in the future when Netflix is available.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

Wanted to get Delicatessen but it's over 20 quid.

http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/blu-ray/delicatessen-limited-digibook-studio-canal-collection/10225333.html?affil=awin&awc=1202_1400694770_a7f52cd70881cb417d06e8d28db641

http://www.play.com/DVD/Blu-ray/4-/15444138/-/Product.html