The WHF Film Club

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW

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Good weather all weekend Mike, especially today.

Bought Nil By Mouth,The Wind That Shakes The Barley, L.A Confidential, and Babel on DVD today at a Car boot, 4 fo £1. DVDs and CDs are so cheap ar Car Boot's these days. :)
 

expat_mike

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BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW said:
Thinking about starting a film club for those members who are interested in the less mainstream side of cinema, specifically, arthouse and world cinema.

This was mentioned by BBB in the very first post of the Club.

I think we have followed this ethos - most of the debate during the setting up of the club was more focussed on no. of members, no. of films/month, which film provider to use etc.
 
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richardw42 said:
When it's my go, are there any guidelines I should follow to stay within the spirit of the film club ?

Just look for films from the less mainstream and the less commercial side of cinema.
 

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Nobody's discussing the Trial.

Personally, i dont like it. Not sure what it was all about. Obviously a poke at the justice system. What else ?

I haver to say Anthony Perkins was extrordinary, but it did become a bit tiring / Monty Python.
 

BenLaw

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Just wanted to let people know that there's a very interesting sounding film on film4 tonight, The Pervert's Guide to Ideology.

Will post some thoughts on The Trial when I get on the laptop, cheers Richard.
 

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Zizek's observations often make for interesting conversation.

Did you ever see The Pervert's Guide to Cinema? It's mostly about Freud and Hitchcock, and quite entertaining, despite this limited focus.
 

expat_mike

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I think that some of us have the problem that we just cannot understand the film. I have just read the Wikipedia pages about both the book and the film - and whilst the storyline of the book is described, it is not explained what it all means. In fact it is stated that "many of Kafka’s descriptions of law and legality are often treated as metaphors for things other than law, but also are worthy of examination as a particular concept of law and legality which operates paradoxically as an integral part of the human condition under modernity". It all begins to sound similar to a surrealist style film, in that nothing is quite what it seems. I know that it is not a surrealist film, because it does not deal with dreams etc - or am I wrong on that point? Maybe the metaphors relate to Freudian aspects of the human condition - but I just cannot fathom it out.

The Wikipedia page about the film includes the section "Over the years, the film has polarized critics and Welles’ scholars and biographers. For example, Charles Higham’s 1970 biography on Welles dismissed the film as "an agonizing experience ... a dead thing, like some tablet found among the dust of forgotten men." But in his 1996 biography on Welles, David Thomson said the film was "an astonishing work, and a revelation of the man ... a stunning film." Clearly many others have had just as much difficulty understanding the film, as I have.

I think we need the mind of Strapped to help us out on this one. ;)
 

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strapped for cash said:
Zizek's observations often make for interesting conversation.

Did you ever see The Pervert's Guide to Cinema? It's mostly about Freud and Hitchcock, and quite entertaining, despite this limited focus.

Nope, never heard of the film or the director before, just happened to be browsing through tonight's film4 listings. I have no idea where the pervert fits in either. Sounded like interesting subject matter from the first few lines on IMDB.
 

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BenLaw said:
strapped for cash said:
Zizek's observations often make for interesting conversation.

Did you ever see The Pervert's Guide to Cinema? It's mostly about Freud and Hitchcock, and quite entertaining, despite this limited focus.

Nope, never heard of the film or the director before, just happened to be browsing through tonight's film4 listings. I have no idea where the pervert fits in either. Sounded like interesting subject matter from the first few lines on IMDB.

Zizek's a Marxist and psychoanalytic theorist,* rather than director. I wouldn't normally reference Wikipedia, but it seems easiest in this case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek

Zizek's letters to Nadezhda Tolonnikova (of pussy riot fame) were also serialised in the Guardian last year.

I set The Pervert's Guide to Ideology to record. It was shown a few weeks ago, and I missed it, so thanks for the prompt.

Given Zizek's background and the documentary's title, I'm anticipating commentary on Eisenstein, Vertov, and montage theory, and perhaps Riefenstahl, too. (I'm thinking back to fairly recent discussions on this thread.)

* Note that I'm describing Zizek here, rather than myself, as I've been caricatured for daring to question right wing policy and ideology, though of course not by you, Ben.
 

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expat_mike said:
It all begins to sound similar to a surrealist style film, in that nothing is quite what it seems. I know that it is not a surrealist film, because it does not deal with dreams etc - or am I wrong on that point? Maybe the metaphors relate to Freudian aspects of the human condition - but I just cannot fathom it out.

Hi Mike,

You asked for my view, though I haven't read the book, or seen the film, I'm afraid.

Based on my limited knowledge of Kafka, we might understand The Trial as a bureaucratic nightmare or maze of thoughts, which would support a surrealist reading. Unfortunately that's as much as I have to offer.

Curiously, if you Google "Kafkaesque," the available definitions are "see Kafkaian" and "see Kafkian." If you click on either link you're referred to the other two definitions, with the three endlessly looping back on each other. I'm not sure if this is deliberate, but getting trapped in an unending cycle seems as good a definition of these terms as anyone could possibly come up with.
 

expat_mike

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strapped for cash said:
expat_mike said:
It all begins to sound similar to a surrealist style film, in that nothing is quite what it seems. I know that it is not a surrealist film, because it does not deal with dreams etc - or am I wrong on that point? Maybe the metaphors relate to Freudian aspects of the human condition - but I just cannot fathom it out.

Hi Mike,

You asked for my view, though I haven't read the book, or seen the film, I'm afraid.

Based on my limited knowledge of Kafka, we might understand The Trial as a bureaucratic nightmare or maze of thoughts, which would support a surrealist reading. Unfortunately that's as much as I have to offer.

Curiously, if you Google "Kafkaesque," the available definitions are "see Kafkaian" and "see Kafkian." If you click on either link you're referred to the other two definitions, with the three endlessly looping back on each other. I'm not sure if this is deliberate, but getting trapped in an unending cycle seems as good a definition of these terms as anyone could possibly come up with.

Thanks for making an attempt Strapped.

Maybe there is some mileage in considering the film as portraying a typically "Kafkaesque" unending cycle of bureaucratic nightmare or maze of thoughts - ie you could say it was aligned with the Kafka "brand" (for want of a better word).

Even as I type, the next question comes into my mind, which is triggered by a debate Strapped was having a few weeks ago. If we start from the position that the film portrays an unending cycle of bureaucratic nightmare or maze of thoughts - what was the purpose of the film? Was it to entertain, confuse, transmit a subconcious political message about totalitarian states (it was released during the cold war), or what?

I have read that people attribute the purpose of the book, as being a description of how Kafka felt about a legal trial that he was involved in, whilst he wrote the book. But that does not provide the purpose for the film.

I feel the need to let someone else have their say now.

Comeone guys.
 

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Completely off topic, but this made my day!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twin-Peaks-Entire-Mystery-Blu-ray/dp/B00H9BFV98/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I can't imagine a more definitive package.

The Gold boxset DVDs were brilliant; but this has everything TP fans could ever want, including 90 minutes of FWWM deleted scenes. The price is great, too, considering all you get -- both seasons, FWWM newly mastered from 4K scan, enough new extras to keep peakies busy for months...

Forgive my enthusiasm.
 

BenLaw

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Mike, long day at work today, I'll try and have a go tomorrow. I think there's some good discussion potential revealed already.

Looks good strapped, has that just come out? Are you buying?
 

strapped for cash

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BenLaw said:
Looks good strapped, has that just come out? Are you buying?

It's out in July. I'll be buying.

I own TP on DVD and FWWM on BD, but the added stuff and (hopefully) superior FWWM release is too tempting, for me at least.

I'm not sure I've made Lynch converts out of FC members yet. If not, I'll keep trying.
smiley-smile.gif
 

expat_mike

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It is worth reading this article about the book The Trial

sites.google.com/site/dtwchu/interests/trial

It makes a strong case for the book being a surrealist description of Kafkas subconcious thoughts/dreams about both the futility of his work within the legal system, and his belief that living his life as a Jew in Europe, meant that you were always on trial and being assessed by unseen judges (ie neighbours, anti-semites, society). The only escape from this living trial, was death.

The article does point out that one difficulty with giving the book a 100% surrealist tag, is that Kafka died before the original surrealist manifesto was published - so the book slightly predates surrealism, however Kafka was influenced by many of the same characters (eg Freud) who influenced the founders of surrealism.

If for the purposes of argument, we take surrealism to be a realistic rationale for the book, then what was Welles purpose for the film?

Was he merely trying to produce a fair representation of the book, for the audience? He certainly did not produce a lively upbeat film, that would have audiences smiling and laughing all the way through.

Again there are difficulties caused by the fact that Kafka never completed the book, and never confided to anyone what was the rationale for the book. After Kafkas death, his agent completed the missing sections of the book, and arranged Kafkas chapters in what he thought was the most appropriate order.

When Welles wanted to use to book, he first had to overcome the fact that it was still under copyright. So he rearranged the order of the chapters, and first created the scripts for a stage play. Next he converted the stage play into a film script.

Consequently it was always impossible for Welles to produce a film that was an accurate representation of what was in Kafkas mind, when he wrote the book (because no-one knew with 100% certainty what that was). However maybe he just tried to make a fair representation of Kafkas mind, given all the difficulties caused by uncompleted then reorganised chapters etc.

I'd like to hear everyone elses views now. I don't want to monopolise the discussion of this film.
 

BenLaw

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Edit: I began this post before Mike's most recent post, so hadn't read that before typing all that follows!

Right, finally got some time for a few thoughts on The Trial. I should say, I haven't read anything formal about the film or even, as far as I can recall, any reviews, so I'm doing the best I can.

To set the scene, I'm realising increasingly that straightforward 'narrative' cinema (I'm aware that's a fairly loose description, but strapped has used it himself a few times so I'm hoping I don't come in for too much criticism!) tends to be of limited interest to me unless it's really quite an exceptional film, and I'm increasingly interested in form, or more accurately a combination of form and content. Not having any education in films I struggle to express what it is that I find interesting, although there's no doubt this thread is veeery slowly helping me to work a few things out. The upshot is that over the last few years I can find a film very interesting without necessarily understanding why and indeed withoiut necesssarily understanding the film. I don't like a film that's just plain confusing, but I probably prefer a film that's a bit of work than one that is immediately obvious.

For me, The Trial is not only a marvellous combination of form and content but also retains sufficient ambiguity to be open to a variety of legitimate interpretations, without simply being a mess.

In terms of form, I wouldn't have been able to express this before this thread, but it seems to me there are strong elements of surrealism and expressionism as well as some interesting elements of realism. Putting it like that, it is remarkable that Welles is able to pull off such a combination of elements of form, whilst the film is utterly consistent in mood and presentation. In terms of surrealism, I would say that strapped's short suggestion is pretty accurate. The film is about bureaucracy more than specifically the law, and clearly there is a 'nightmare' of an unknown criminal charge and an unending floundering through an impenetrable bureaucracy. Clearly, almost none of the scenes represents straightforward reality (but more of that in a bit). I'm confident that there could be a purely surrealist reading of the film, that all of the events are literally the dreams / nightmares of our protagonist. I would say that the ending supports such a reading, as the sense of place has become barren and utterly divorced from the urban realism we had before, and his suicidal actions become utterly irrational. We also conclude with the mushroom cloud, symbolic of oblivion and the end of all things, rather than merely our protagonist's story.

I mention there an element of realism. Whilst I don't suggest that there could be a purely realist reading of the film, there are a number of elements whcich seem to come from realism, indeed specifically from Italian neo-realism. Virtually all of the film (off the top of my head, maybe with the sole exception of the visit to the painter and later chase and probably the opening interior of the apartment) is set in real places. There are some incredible locations: the barren exterior of the flat, like a warzone, where the old lady is dragging the case, the enormous typing pool, the cathedral / station towards the end, the packed court room. Neorealism is also associated with depicting the 'real' lives of the poor (simplistically), and we see images such as the group of sick people, the group of people in the labyrinth of the court system and the woman dragging the suitcase with her bad leg.

What Welles manages to pull off (and with reference to JD's off the cuff comment, this goes far beyond being 'nicely lit') is to turn these real places and images into an expressionist film. Nothing is quite what it seems, or should be. The opening apartment interior is very odd. Likewise the exterior, being watched by those in the opposite apartment block. The immense clacking sound in the too-big typing pool warehouse is enormously claustrophobic. The painter's room at the top of the steps, surrounded by children's eyes, and the chase through the corridors afterwards (the pemultimate scene in Kill List was reminiscent of this). The advocate's room piled ten feet high with books and papers. Those are just some that have stuck in my head, but I'd say it applied to every scene and setting.

He also plays with some interesting contrasts in setting: the packed courtrrom compared with the same setting a few scenes later when it is empty. The claustophobia of the apartment when it appears utterly overlooked compared with the wasteland the old woman is in. There is a deleted scene on the blu ray of Perking skipping along the empty typing pool tables, in contrast to the packed hive of earlier.

Now, if it were just down to form the film would probably be only interesting rather than good. But for me not only is there good content, but the form and the content inform each other. It seems to me the film deals with wide issues of bureaucracy, the power of the state, the law, in a generally dystopian presentation. It has echoes of 1984 and Brazil although having a less obvious narrative progression is understandbly harder to get a grip on than either. One aspect of that I find interesting is that it is a very 'European' film. I need to rewatch some of the extras, but I'm pretty sure there is some connection to East of the Iron Curtain. Either way, it clearly has some relevance to an overbearing, oppressive Soviet regime, and that's made clear in the apartment blocks and the wasteland outside. However, it combines this (without ever feeling uneven, for me) with obvious Western influences, such as the classically American typing pool and super computer and the French cathedral / station. For me, this gives the message a sense of universality.

As well as these broad themes, it also has personal themes of paranoia, claustrophobia and obsession as well as something going on in terms of sexuality that I can't quite put my finger on. The paranoia and claustrophobia are easy to fit into a surrealist reading of the film, although we're never given an explanation for why they would be taking place. It seems to me the expressionistic form contributes marvellously to these feelings of claustrophobia and paranoia (expressionism being to do with expressing emotion rather than reality), and that Welles hits the mark with this from the very first scene in the apartment, which is incredibly sinister and oppressive. Indeed, the prologue with Welles' baritone narration kicks that off. Other scenes that spring to mind would be when he is surrounded by the old people in the labyrinthine legal building and when he is watched / chased by the children.

The sex thing is interesting. Welles had a habit of casting very striking actresses, and certainly did so in this film Whilst a number of them appear to be 'strong' and autonomous (eg the dancer, the advocate's secretary) I'm pretty sure that all of them offer themselves sexually to Perkins. Is this his fantasy? Something symbolic of his personal obsessions and feelings of inadequacy? The flip side of his feelings of oppression by the state? I'm not sure.

I'm not saying this is a perfect film. It's a touch slow in the second half, in particular the scenes with Welles himself as the advocate. It's not an easy film and I may have at least parts of it totally wrong. But I don't think it should be dismissed as not being good simply because it takes some work to try and get one's head around it.
 

expat_mike

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Thanks Ben, you've obviously spent some time considering the film in great depth.

BenLaw said:
We also conclude with the mushroom cloud, symbolic of oblivion and the end of all things, rather than merely our protagonist's story.

In the book, K is killed with a knife through the heart, but in the film by an explosion followed by the mushroom cloud. This does open the possibility that there is some cold war symbolism employed here - we have migrated from the death of an individual, to the death/obivion of a whole society.

BenLaw said:
However, it combines this (without ever feeling uneven, for me) with obvious Western influences, such as the classically American typing pool and super computer and the French cathedral / station.

When considering the locations, it is worth considering the following, exracted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_(1962_film)

In Paris, Welles had planned to shoot the interiors of his film at the Bois de Boulogne studios. Instead, he used the Gare d'Orsay, an abandoned Parisian railway station. Welles rearranged his set design to accommodate this new setting, and he later defended his decision to film at Gare d'Orsay in an interview ....where he stated: "Everything was improvised at the last moment, because the whole physical concept of my film was quite different. It was based on the absence of sets. And the gigantic nature of the sets, which people have objected to, is partly due to the fact that the only setting I had was that old abandoned station.

This does mean that how the film appeared on-screen, was probably different to how Welles had initially envisaged, when writing the screenplay. However this does not rule out the possibility that the locations/screen sets, ended up working better than originally envisaged.
 

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As a broad response to the above, I'd note that a film doesn't have to be exclusively surrealist, or expressionist, and so on. (I'm not suggesting anyone has said as much; and hopefully nobody thinks I'm passing judgement on their observations. After all, I haven't even seen The Trial.)

In my view, the most persuasive narrative of film history is one of continued appropriation and cultural exchange, or put another way, a perpetual mixing of styles or methods. For instance, some French New Wave filmmakers were influenced by earlier US crime cinema (think Breathless), while certain US filmmakers were/are influenced by the French New Wave (note the use of jump cuts in The Graduate, or Wes Anderson's references to Truffaut). This is why it's problematic to think in terms of perfectly discrete national cinemas or movements, which is not to say that we can't make distinctions at all.

Understanding what filmmaking pioneers sought to achieve is very useful when trying to read a film. So if we watch examples of early surrealist cinema, and appreciate that the surrealist movement was founded on a desire to represent the Freudian unconscious, we can get a sense of what later filmmakers were trying to achieve when borrowing surrealist filmmaking tropes. Likewise, once we know that expressionism was grounded in efforts to represent character psychology, or that realists sought to eradicate film style, we can apply this understanding to other works.

The better we understand filmmaking techniques' origins, the more able we are to offer informed textual readings. I enjoyed the above discussion of The Trial because commentary focused on different formal approaches and their contexts. (I know that sounds patronising. I don't mean it to. I couldn't think of another way of expressing this while conveying the same meaning.) I'll have to watch the film at some point.
 
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