The real cost of Hi Fi end systems

[Native_bon]

I know people have different opinions, but the very stupid expensive stuff will not really sound any better than a well matched system costing around £2000 in my opinion (Or you may think up to say around £4000 perhaps), if there is any improvement in sound difference after this price point it will be very small getting smaller and smaller

The best value for money system is a well matched system like I have for £600 in total for the Denon Ceol N8 and Dali Zensor 1 speakers, and it sounds extremely good really !

Of course it may be the best VFM but it's no were near the best sound. I actually think once you get to a certain price point all you doing is changing what a system does best. For example, some may perform better with tonality, others resolution and so on.

If you put together the most expensive system money can buy I dnt think everyone would like it. Cause it still may not do best what some rate most in the ability of a system.

 

[Al ears]

I know people have different opinions, but the really stupid expensive stuff will not sound any better than a well matched system costing around £2000 in my opinion (Or you may think up to say around £4000 perhaps), if there is any improvement in sound difference after this price point it will be small getting smaller and smaller the higher in price you pay

The best value for money system is a well matched system like I have for £600 in total for the Denon Ceol N8 and Dali Zensor 1 speakers, and it sounds extremely good really !

I can only assume that you have never heard a serious hi-end system if you think that.

Simply being expensive is not enough, you need seriously good components put together by someone who knows a little about system building and setting up such a system.

The differences between these systems and 'normal' setups is not small, it is enormous performance wise and very expensive to achieve. I gave up my high end system (nearly £30k in the late 1990s) because it only gave me a hint of what could be achieved were I prepared to double or triple my expendature.

I could go with that, even though I've never owned a 30k system.

 

[davedotco]

I know people have different opinions, but the really stupid expensive stuff will not sound any better than a well matched system costing around £2000 in my opinion (Or you may think up to say around £4000 perhaps), if there is any improvement in sound difference after this price point it will be small getting smaller and smaller the higher in price you pay

The best value for money system is a well matched system like I have for £600 in total for the Denon Ceol N8 and Dali Zensor 1 speakers, and it sounds extremely good really !

I can only assume that you have never heard a serious hi-end system if you think that.

Simply being expensive is not enough, you need seriously good components put together by someone who knows a little about system building and setting up such a system.

The differences between these systems and 'normal' setups is not small, it is enormous performance wise and very expensive to achieve. I gave up my high end system (nearly £30k in the late 1990s) because it only gave me a hint of what could be achieved were I prepared to double or triple my expendature.

I could go with that, even though I've never owned a 30k system.

And I was, of course, a dealer.

It was actually an attempt to mimic a system I heard in a house (on Wimbledon Parkside), it involved some of the best equipment of the day driving a pair of Martin Logan Statement speakers.

One of the best sounds I have ever heard and costing way more than the £30k I spent trying to emulate it with my own Martin Logan CLS based setup.

Mind you, an awful lot of fun was had at the time, trying to decide whether an Urushi at nearly £4k was worth the extra over a 'mere' Red Signature for example.

 

[Snooker]

I can only base my findings on a Bristiol Hi-Fi Exibition Show I went too a while back, and my little system at the show sounded better than more expensive systems on display, but I was also particularly impressed with the Chord Electronics Stuff that sounded amazing a good level up from mine and I believe it was around £2000 what I was listening to (amplifier/power supply/ipad streamed music with Dynaudio DM2/6 speakers, nothing else in the exibition sounded as good as the Chord Electronics Stuff I listened to for around £2000, apparently they now make a DAC for around £8000, but could you really tell the difference between that and one of there £400 ones in a blind test, you can only design circuits within limits and would think for £2000-£4000 you could buy an amazing sounding system from the Chord Electronics Stuff for example, where anything dearer would just be very small improvements of a few percent at most etc

I think blind tests would surprise people in just how good cheaper systems actually are etc, of course as said in this thread by other people some manufacturers will just add on loads of extra money as it is being sold as a high end product

 

[nopiano]

I agree about shows, snooker, and have stated so several times on this forum. The more modest systems often give their best, whereas the potentially higher resolution ones can often seem cluttered and incoherent.

I have always felt that was mostly down to the smaller rooms and far from ideal acoustics. That's why the wealthier brands often use ballrooms, not because they resemble many living rooms, but they do allow the gear to breathe!

I do believe that better gear at home is often much better than most demos or dealer showrooms.

 

[davedotco]

I can only base my findings on a Bristiol Hi-Fi Exibition Show I went too a while back, and my little system at the show sounded better than more expensive systems on display, but I was also particularly impressed with the Chord Electronics Stuff that sounded amazing a good level up from mine and I believe it was around £2000 what I was listening to (amplifier/power supply/ipad streamed music with Dynaudio DM2/6 speakers, nothing else in the exibition sounded as good as the Chord Electronics Stuff I listened to for around £2000, apparently they now make a DAC for around £8000, but could you really tell the difference between that and one of there £400 ones in a blind test, you can only design circuits within limits and would think for £2000-£4000 you could buy an amazing sounding system from the Chord Electronics Stuff for example, where anything dearer would just be very small improvements of a few percent at most etc

I think blind tests would surprise people in just how good cheaper systems actually are etc, of course as said in this thread by other people some manufacturers will just add on loads of extra money as it is being sold as a high end product

Is your only experience of more high priced equipment, then I guess your views are perhaps understandable, I have never, in many years of involvment heard anything resembling a decent setup at that show, let alone anything remotely capable of 'high end' performance.

I genuinely have no idea how to actually describe something like this to someone who has never heard anything like it, even trying to find an analogy is difficult.

I can recall, listening to one system playing the original vinyl pressing of Dave Brubeck's 1960 release "Time Out". There were two or three of us listening in a largish room and I was not even in a central position, let alone in the sweet spot.

The Quartet were placed in 3 dimensional space quite precisely, each instrument loked into place and it was the easiest thing in the world to hear the interplay between the musicians and the shifting paterns of the complex and unusual time sgnatures that the album is famous for.

Even more astonishing was the ability to move around and 'walk into' the soundstage without anything changing or moving. Other material was similarly impressive, but more difficult to describe, some pop material sounding incredibly live despite the relatively modest volume used.

Take it from me, it sounded nothing like anything you will have heard at the Bristol Show.

 

[Al ears]

I know people have different opinions, but the really stupid expensive stuff will not sound any better than a well matched system costing around £2000 in my opinion (Or you may think up to say around £4000 perhaps), if there is any improvement in sound difference after this price point it will be small getting smaller and smaller the higher in price you pay

The best value for money system is a well matched system like I have for £600 in total for the Denon Ceol N8 and Dali Zensor 1 speakers, and it sounds extremely good really !

I can only assume that you have never heard a serious hi-end system if you think that.

Simply being expensive is not enough, you need seriously good components put together by someone who knows a little about system building and setting up such a system.

The differences between these systems and 'normal' setups is not small, it is enormous performance wise and very expensive to achieve. I gave up my high end system (nearly £30k in the late 1990s) because it only gave me a hint of what could be achieved were I prepared to double or triple my expendature.

I could go with that, even though I've never owned a 30k system.

And I was, of course, a dealer.

It was actually an attempt to mimic a system I heard in a house (on Wimbledon Parkside), it involved some of the best equipment of the day driving a pair of Martin Logan Statement speakers.

One of the best sounds I have ever heard and costing way more than the £30k I spent trying to emulate it with my own Martin Logan CLS based setup.

Mind you, an awful lot of fun was had at the time, trying to decide whether an Urushi at nearly £4k was worth the extra over a 'mere' Red Signature for example.

I realise that, all I can say is you lucky, lucky bustard. .......

 

[Barbapapa]

Is your only experience of more high priced equipment, then I guess your views are perhaps understandable, I have never, in many years of involvment heard anything resembling a decent setup at that show, let alone anything remotely capable of 'high end' performance.

I genuinely have no idea how to actually describe something like this to someone who has never heard anything like it, even trying to find an analogy is difficult.

I can recall, listening to one system playing the original vinyl pressing of Dave Brubeck's 1960 release "Time Out". There were two or three of us listening in a largish room and I was not even in a central position, let alone in the sweet spot.

The Quartet were placed in 3 dimensional space quite precisely, each instrument loked into place and it was the easiest thing in the world to hear the interplay between the musicians and the shifting paterns of the complex and unusual time sgnatures that the album is famous for.

Even more astonishing was the ability to move around and 'walk into' the soundstage without anything changing or moving. Other material was similarly impressive, but more difficult to describe, some pop material sounding incredibly live despite the relatively modest volume used.

Take it from me, it sounded nothing like anything you will have heard at the Bristol Show.

This is the first time I've read an actual attempt to give an honest impression, without lathering on superlatives, of the difference between normal hi-fi systems and truly high end systems. Thanks for that, it is really well described. It's somewhat sad to know I'll probably never encounter anything like this. But at the same time it's good to know that it is also useless to try to emulate this with limited disposable funds.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Hello audio fans,

recenty I came across a nice interview of some pretty expensive preamplifier that cost $18K where one Hi Fi reviewer was simply stunned by this huge price point. Have you got this feeling that many hi end pieces of stuff is simply overpriced ? I mean , should we not see sometimes exact data and documents how much the company spent on components and their workmanship ? I read also recently on some Hi Fi forum one of the answers that after opening one of the newest Accuphase amps the reviewers have discovered they use some pretty cheap components intertwined in between the more expensive ones. But what I mean are not Accu standards but let's say some amps or speakers that cost around 20 000 $. What can justify this price tags ? Are really those components so expensive ? Of course I know and believe that in Hi Fi you never get good sound for cheap but sometimes is it not a simple exagerration and a bit of rip off ?

Regards.

You can use a simple method. Take the sell price and divide it 6 times. It should, normally, be the price of the components of your hifi gear (this rule don't function for speaker). If you are sure that even with this, the price is way too high. You are in front of a overpriced "high end" thing. Free to you not to buy it.

Warning : The casing of your amplifiers/DAC/cd players are, generally, the more costly component on them. The public tends to forget that.

--------------

Edit : other trick : The price of the component that comes out of the factory is X. The margin of the general reseller in your country varies, but is around 150% to 300% (+300 for speaker cables and interconnects). Don't forget that those margins are after importation, so the VAT and transport are to add before. Then, your local shop has a margin too. So add the transport fees for the good, and, depending of the brand, around 5% for the worst brands, 10% for better. Ideally, it's around 30% margin. But it's becoming rare(r) today.

 

[davedotco]

Thank you for your kind words.

I have heard systems of that quality perhaps a dozen times during about 40 years in and around the business.

Another such situation was quite unique, it involve a (digital) recording of various jazz musicians, recorded in the same room as the playback system, which was an early Red Rose setup. The amplifiers were substantial valve monoblocks, 140wpc diving a pair of very unusual ribbon hybrid speakers.

Once again the result was three dimensional with remarkable presence, those present at both the recording and playback were particularly impressed. The recordings were 'pure DSD' and a selection of these recordings can be found on the 'Live at Red Rose SACDs'.

The photo below is the best I can find, The speakers are a line array of 8 x 5 inch bass mid units and about 3 feet of ribbon tweeter, the amplifiers can be seen behind. This was not how the system was set up, they seem to have been stored at the side of the room. The amps look tiny in the picture, but they are 17 inches wide, 22 inches deep and weigh 70lbs each.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Thank you for your kind words.

I have heard systems of that quality perhaps a dozen times during about 40 years in and around the business.

Another such situation was quite unique, it involve a (digital) recording of various jazz musicians, recorded in the same room as the playback system, which was an early Red Rose setup. The amplifiers were substantial valve monoblocks, 140wpc diving a pair of very unusual ribbon hybrid speakers.

Once again the result was three dimensional with remarkable presence, those present at both the recording and playback were particularly impressed. The recordings were 'pure DSD' and a selection of these recordings can be found on the 'Live at Red Rose SACDs'.

The photo below is the best I can find, The speakers are a line array of 8 x 5 inch bass mid units and about 3 feet of ribbon tweeter, the amplifiers can be seen behind. This was not how the system was set up, they seem to have been stored at the side of the room. The amps look tiny in the picture, but they are 17 inches wide, 22 inches deep and weigh 70lbs each.

One in the eye for the valve naysayers then?

 

[Frank Harvey]

One in the eye for the valve naysayers then?

And the small speaker brigade?

 

[davedotco]

One in the eye for the valve naysayers then?

And the small speaker brigade?

Scale can be very important, if you have the space it can make an enormous difference. Another very fine sounding system, much more modest cost wise, involved a pair of Tannoy Yorks (before they became collectable and silly prices) but it was in a 'manse' and the room was huge.

The reality that most of us have to deal with is that our rooms are not huge and space for speakers is often tight. Small speakers are, in my experience, easier to place and set up and often preferable to larger, better speakers in a less than optimal setup.

Valve amplifiers are something else, good ones make the musical performance sound very real and believable, particularly on classical and other acoustic music, for a lot of modern 'pop', I'm not that fussed.

I have said this befor, but if I was contemplating spending serious money £5k and up, I would be choosing between a serious (studio monitor) active setup or a more conventional passive system with valve amplification

 

[Al ears]

One in the eye for the valve naysayers then?

And the small speaker brigade?

Scale can be very important, if you have the space it can make an enormous difference. Another very fine sounding system, much more modest cost wise, involved a pair of Tannoy Yorks (before they became collectable and silly prices) but it was in a 'manse' and the room was huge.

The reality that most of us have to deal with is that our rooms are not huge and space for speakers is often tight. Small speakers are, in my experience, easier to place and set up and often preferable to larger, better speakers in a less than optimal setup.

Valve amplifiers are something else, good ones make the musical performance sound very real and believable, particularly on classical and other acoustic music, for a lot of modern 'pop', I'm not that fussed.

I have said this befor, but if I was contemplating spending serious money £5k and up, I would be choosing between a serious (studio monitor) active setup or a more conventional passive system with valve amplification

Good to hear. Although I haven't heard many active set-ups this is why I went for hybrid valve amplification, best of both worlds even if it is pretty low powered.

 

[davedotco]

One in the eye for the valve naysayers then?

And the small speaker brigade?

Scale can be very important, if you have the space it can make an enormous difference. Another very fine sounding system, much more modest cost wise, involved a pair of Tannoy Yorks (before they became collectable and silly prices) but it was in a 'manse' and the room was huge.

The reality that most of us have to deal with is that our rooms are not huge and space for speakers is often tight. Small speakers are, in my experience, easier to place and set up and often preferable to larger, better speakers in a less than optimal setup.

Valve amplifiers are something else, good ones make the musical performance sound very real and believable, particularly on classical and other acoustic music, for a lot of modern 'pop', I'm not that fussed.

I have said this befor, but if I was contemplating spending serious money £5k and up, I would be choosing between a serious (studio monitor) active setup or a more conventional passive system with valve amplification

Good to hear. Although I haven't heard many active set-ups this is why I went for hybrid valve amplification, best of both worlds even if it is pretty low powered.

I do rather like a nice valve amplifier. Somewhere, in my house in Andalusia, I have a nice EL34 based integrated amplifier. Sadly it has been in storage for the best part of 10 years and for reasons too complex (family matters) to go into, I still cannot access it.

In general terms, I find that most affordable hi-fi has a sort of 'hi-fi industry' character to it that I do not much like. It's hard to describe but it is a lack of what I term 'realism' or 'presence'. The simplest I can put it is that there should be a sense of 'real' musicians making music in 'your' presence. Most conventional (and affordable) hi-fi does not do that for me.

In very different ways, both good active and good valve based systems somehow have greater clarity, get you closer, remove barriers, call it as you will.

That said, the finest systems I have heard embrace virtually all known hi-fi technology, there really are many, many ways to skin the hi-fi cat.