The panel speaker thread

[matt49]

There don’t seem to be many users of panel speakers on the forum, so this thread may sink like a lead balloon, but no harm in trying.

First of all, given their well known technical advantages (e.g. better transient response, no need for Xovers in the presence range, huge 3D soundstage) why aren’t panel speakers more widely used? I guess there are five reasons: they’re expensive, they’re big, they’re finicky about positioning, they don’t do deep bass, and they make extreme demands of amps.

None of these is necessarily true.

Price: a pair of Magneplanar MG MC-1s can be had for a smidge over £1K. The entry-level Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESLs are rather more pricey at £2.5K. But still not outrageous money, and good value compared to the competition.

Size: OK, Quads are humungously wide, but the Martin Logans are no bigger than a mid-sized floorstander, and the fact that their panels are semi-transparent arguably makes them more domestically acceptable.

Positioning: because panel speakers are dipoles (i.e. they radiate sound backwards as well as forwards), most models do need to stand at least 2-3 feet from a rear wall. But there are ESLs that can go snug against a wall, e.g. the Janszen speakers.

Bass: in order to get anywhere near 40Hz you do need a huge panel. Step forward the hybrid ESL! A panel attached to a conventional bass driver ticks all the boxes, assuming the integration of the panel and bass driver is handled well, as it is in the models by Martin Logan and Sanders.

Amps: ESLs are capacitors, not resistors, so they thrive on voltage, not current. There are two approaches to this: either a huge SS amp (e.g. the excellent Sanders Magtech) or a valve amp. It can be done and needn’t break the bank, but care is needed.

The rewards are immense: nothing is as accurate, distortion-free and immersive as a well set-up and properly driven panel speaker. Nothing.

*bye*

Matt

 

[Infiniteloop]

I had a pair of Martin Logan's a few years back. I couldn't get on with them.

Accurate, neutral and very fast, but also had a very small 'sweet spot', and a weird 'in-your-face' presentation that felt claustrophobic. One panel developed a crease after a few months which was repaired under warranty and Mrs Loop hated the look of them - so they didn't stay long....

I'm much happier with my Focals as they too are fast, accurate and neutral (especially with the Devialet and SAM) and have a much higher WAF.

 

[andyjm]

Have had Martin Logans for 10 years or so. Krell amplification. A right fiddle to set up, and limited sweet spot, but with a well recorded track they do their amazing 'dissapearing act' .

I have not heard any other speaker that so effectively removes themselves from the room, just leaving the music behind.

Not a cheap option, but if you are looking in that price bracket, well worth an audition.

 

[lindsayt]

I like electrostatic panel speakers a lot. I'd recommend anyone seriously into hi-fi to try some to see if they are the right speakers for them.

In addition to the 5 drawbacks listed by matt there are a few more things to be aware of:

Electrostatics generally benefit from major refurbishment work every 10 to 15 years.

Electrostatics can set up charged fields in a room. I've heard someone who tried them and found a large amount of dust being attracted to the stylus on his record player whenever they were turned on.

Electrostatics have limited power handling. They arc if too much power is fed to the panels. Many models have protection circuits. You are looking at about 100 to 105 dbs max volume at 1 metre for older Quad ESL's in good condition.

The bass issues contradicts the "nothing is as accurate, distortion-free" statement. For what is a lack of bass extension if it is not inaccuracy and distortion in the widest sense of the term?

 

[DocG]

Electrostatics have limited power handling. They arc if too much power is fed to the panels. Many models have protection circuits. You are looking at about 100 to 105 dbs max volume at 1 metre for older Quad ESL's in good condition.

Yes, but 100 dB is a reasonable level for many of us (and their neighbours). Moreover, because panels beam their sound towards a smallish sweet spot, they sound substantially louder than a dynamic box speaker's 100 dB, when you sit at 3-4 m (provided you are in that sweet spot). Agree?

 

[matt49]

The bass issues contradicts the "nothing is as accurate, distortion-free" statement. For what is a lack of bass extension if it is not inaccuracy and distortion in the widest sense of the term?

Hence my reference to hybrid ESLs by ML and Sanders. The panel handles the top and mid-range, where our hearing is very sensitive, and a conventional driver handles the bottom end, where it isn't.

 

[postup_crni]

Matt,

I own ML Electromotions ESL, powered by Marantz S11S2 (amp + SACD). We chose it over a series of 3K EUR speakers (PMC 23, Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand, MA GX200, KEF R700, previuosly Harbeth SL5, Monitor 30; Audio Physics Tempo 25 ..), mostly with the Marantz. Alternatively, very good results with Naim XS. Although MA and PMC were excellent, we did not hesitate a moment …

I am considering upgrading my amp and your threads were really interesting. Considering that ML ELSs are not (bass) powered like the Montis, which would be a better amplifier for them, Devialet 120 (200) with SAM or the Sander Magtech? I would assume that an SAM tool would better suit a passive speaker, or ..? Thxs.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Matt,

I own ML Electromotions ESL, powered by Marantz S11S2 (amp + SACD). We chose it over a series of 3K EUR speakers (PMC 23, Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand, MA GX200, KEF R700, previuosly Harbeth SL5, Monitor 30; Audio Physics Tempo 25 ..), mostly with the Marantz. Alternatively, very good results with Naim XS. Although MA and PMC were excellent, we did not hesitate a moment …

I am considering upgrading my amp and your threads were really interesting. Considering that ML ELSs are not (bass) powered like the Montis, which would be a better amplifier for them, Devialet 120 (200) with SAM or the Sander Magtech? I would assume that an SAM tool would better suit a passive speaker, or ..? Thxs.

SAM works mostly in the Bass region of the sound output from speakers - it has certainly made a huge difference to my Focals. Much deeper and tighter, my Electra 1008Be's are no slouch in the Bass department with 'normal' amplification (or SAM off) but with SAM they go far deeper than is expected from standmounters and would put a lot of floorstanders to shame.

I would expect SAM to make quite an improvement to your Electromotions....

 

[matt49]

Based on my experience, I would have no hesitation in recommending the Sanders Magtech or, as a slightly cheaper option, the Sanders ESL. Both will drive your MLs to the utmost of their ability. Nb these are power amps, so you'd need a preamp and DAC. I wouldn't recommend a Devialet. Although the ML + Devialet combo can sound very good, you'll get a better result with the Samders amps.

Try it out if you can: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Matt

 

[lindsayt]

The bass issues contradicts the "nothing is as accurate, distortion-free" statement. For what is a lack of bass extension if it is not inaccuracy and distortion in the widest sense of the term?

Hence my reference to hybrid ESLs by ML and Sanders. The panel handles the top and mid-range, where our hearing is very sensitive, and a conventional driver handles the bottom end, where it isn't.

The ESL hybrids that I've heard haven't done it in the bass for me. They've had too small a bass driver, located right next to the floor.

These speakers have still had that magical midrange, which makes compromises in the bass easier to accept.

 

[matt49]

The ESL hybrids that I've heard haven't done it in the bass for me. They've had too small a bass driver, located right next to the floor.

These speakers have still had that magical midrange, which makes compromises in the bass easier to accept.

I'm very happy with what my hybrids do. The 10" bass drivers kick out loads of tight and deep bass and never sound forced. I know this sounds counterintuitive, since the bass units have their own active amplification, but switching to the Sanders Magtech does seem to have added some extra LF depth and richness.

Having said that, I think I may be unable to resist the urge to experiment with a 15" sub (or two) at some stage. It's an itch I need to scratch.

 

[matt49]

Good idea to resurrect this thread, though the OP is notoriously touchy, so we'd better be careful.

There are several really appealing features about the PAP speakers. As you say, they're very flexible: you can buy part of a kit if you want and source the other bits (e.g. drivers) elsewhere. They'll do active or passive, as you wish. I also like that they offer a horn version.

I've had some correspondence with them, and they were tremendously helpful and well informed. Real enthusiasts! I asked about using the hi-pass filter in the Devialet, and maybe running the woofers from the Dev's pre-outs using a miniDSP as lo-pass filter into a Hypex power amp. They seemed to think that would be a great idea and made suggestions for the Xover points.

On the other hand it might make more sense to go passive, as the Xover can be set right down at 250Hz, where it'll be barely noticeable.

Anyway. lots to think about.

As I mentioned, I'm also tempted by Maggies, which I can at least demo with the Devialet in London. However, I think the PAP models will produce more slam, which is kind of what I'm after. And those 15" woofers do look the business.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Magnepan do the entry MMG for around £700 imported directly with Import Duty, Delivery and VAT.

They also do the MG12 via dealers in the UK that tend to be around £800-£1k Ex-Demo too.

 

[matt49]

Magnepan do the entry MMG for around £700 imported directly with Import Duty, Delivery and VAT.

They also do the MG12 via dealers in the UK that tend to be around £800-£1k Ex-Demo too.

Yep, they're great value. I'm thinking I could accommodate the MG1.7i. A demo at KJWestOne beckons.

 

[DocG]

Magnepan do the entry MMG for around £700 imported directly with Import Duty, Delivery and VAT.

Hey Hoops,

I ordered my MMGs factory-direct, and had them shipped through MyUS. They should arrive in Belgium tomorrow evening, for a total cost of 915 EUR, or 665 GBP.

 

[DocG]

... changed the name of the thread to "The Dipole Speaker Thread", Matt? Then we could discuss these PAP-speakers you're eyeing on right here! If changing the name is not possible, I'm sure this thread's OP would not mind us taking it this far off topic...

It looks like a great option anyway! Where did you bump into this company? If you do pull the trigger on a pair of these, give us a detailed report on them (as if you wouldn't!).

Now, my Maggies should arrive tomorrow, so no easy way back for me. But I bookmarked the PAP website; if I feel an itch to add more bass, I'll know where to look first (they advice Hypex UcD amps to drive their speakers, which is nice too...)! And they look pretty flexible for other ways of building a system (active XO, ...). Excellent!

EDIT: added a hyperlink.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Magnepan do the entry MMG for around £700 imported directly with Import Duty, Delivery and VAT.

Hey Hoops,

I ordered my MMGs factory-direct, and had them shipped through MyUS. They should arrive in Belgium tomorrow evening, for a total cost of 915 EUR, or 665 GBP.

Lovely, even better value than I was looking at a few years ago, I eventually bought my old pair S/H for £600, technically second hand but they were BNIB.

I hope you enjoy them!

 

[CnoEvil]

Yep, they're great value. I'm thinking I could accommodate the MG1.7i. A demo at KJWestOne beckons.

It's great to see the forum taking a turn for the better, where people are getting back to sharing experiences, rather than a constant stream of strongly negative posting.

There have been some great purchases; problems being sorted and some interesting stuff that people intend demoing......Long may it last.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the Maggies, especially compared to the MLs.

 

[DocG]

There are several really appealing features about the PAP speakers. As you say, they're very flexible: you can buy part of a kit if you want and source the other bits (e.g. drivers) elsewhere. They'll do active or passive, as you wish. I also like that they offer a horn version.

Well, they seem to have a happy customer in Belgium (who uses horns for mids/treble). Might try and get in touch with the man in due time...

 

[matt49]

Well, they seem to have a happy customer in Belgium (who uses horns for mids/treble). Might try and get in touch with the man in due time...

If you could visit the happy Belgian and have a listen, that would be extremely helpful.

It's great to see the forum taking a turn for the better, where people are getting back to sharing experiences, rather than a constant stream of strongly negative posting.

There have been some great purchases; problems being sorted and some interesting stuff that people intend demoing......Long may it last.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the Maggies, especially compared to the MLs.

Yes, I can feel another speaker adventure coming on. As you'll recall, I bought the Sf Cremonas second hand knowing that they might not be a permanent fixture. There was all sorts of uncertainty in my life back then, particularly concerning our possible house move in London. The move happened back in October and although we're still dealing with the fall-out from the move -- e.g. decoration going on in the TV room and living room downstairs -- things are now much clearer.

I now have three spaces for music: the living room (a lovely space of 5.25 x 5.25m), the study where I work in the evenings (5 x 4m), and the living space in our holiday cottage in the Cotswolds (4 x 8m).

The Martin Logans are going to stay in the London living room. Of all the speakers I've heard so far, none has managed the sheer drama and immediacy of the MLs. I was initially happy with the Devialet driving them, but having heard the MLs with the Sanders Magtech (which is designed specifically to drive ESLs), I've now reached a status quo with that system. There may be more fettling to do with the DAC/preamp/streamer. I hope that John Westlake's MDAC2, which should be ready in late summer, will do the job. John has £1 million's worth of test equiment in his lab: he says the MDAC2 is so accurate his test equipment can't measure its distortion. The upgrade from my MDAC to the MDAC2 will only be about £200.

As for the study, I hanker after a pair of speakers with 15" bass drivers. This will be the most interesting adventure yet. I still believe the Devialet is as good as you can get for driving electrodynamic speakers, even if it was bested by the Magtech with my MLs. The Pureaudioproject open-baffle speakers, with their two 15" woofers, could be just the job, and they're not very expensive.

The holiday cottage system, which I bought second hand (Sugden A21a, PMC GB1s) is, I now realize, far too small to fill the space. Some big old second-hand speakers (Tannoys?) might be just the job. I'm glad I bought second hand and can sell on without any significant financial loss. As Mrs49 and I move slowly towards retirement, we'll be spending more time up in Glos, so the cottage will deserve a better system.

So yes, lots of listening and experimenting to do. *drinks*

 

[Infiniteloop]

Well, they seem to have a happy customer in Belgium (who uses horns for mids/treble). Might try and get in touch with the man in due time...

If you could visit the happy Belgian and have a listen, that would be extremely helpful.

It's great to see the forum taking a turn for the better, where people are getting back to sharing experiences, rather than a constant stream of strongly negative posting.

There have been some great purchases; problems being sorted and some interesting stuff that people intend demoing......Long may it last.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the Maggies, especially compared to the MLs.

Yes, I can feel another speaker adventure coming on. As you'll recall, I bought the Sf Cremonas second hand knowing that they might not be a permanent fixture. There was all sorts of uncertainty in my life back then, particularly concerning our possible house move in London. The move happened back in October and although we're still dealing with the fall-out from the move -- e.g. decoration going on in the TV room and living room downstairs -- things are now much clearer.

I now have three spaces for music: the living room (a lovely space of 5.25 x 5.25m), the study where I work in the evenings (5 x 4m), and the living space in our holiday cottage in the Cotswolds (4 x 8m).

The Martin Logans are going to stay in the London living room. Of all the speakers I've heard so far, none has managed the sheer drama and immediacy of the MLs. I was initially happy with the Devialet driving them, but having heard the MLs with the Sanders Magtech (which is designed specifically to drive ESLs), I've now reached a status quo with that system. There may be more fettling to do with the DAC/preamp/streamer. I hope that John Westlake's MDAC2, which should be ready in late summer, will do the job. John has £1 million's worth of test equiment in his lab: he says the MDAC2 is so accurate his test equipment can't measure its distortion. The upgrade from my MDAC to the MDAC2 will only be about £200.

As for the study, I hanker after a pair of speakers with 15" bass drivers. This will be the most interesting adventure yet. I still believe the Devialet is as good as you can get for driving electrodynamic speakers, even if it was bested by the Magtech with my MLs. The Pureaudioproject open-baffle speakers, with their two 15" woofers, could be just the job, and they're not very expensive.

The holiday cottage system, which I bought second hand (Sugden A21a, PMC GB1s) is, I now realize, far too small to fill the space. Some big old second-hand speakers (Tannoys?) might be just the job. I'm glad I bought second hand and can sell on without any significant financial loss. As Mrs49 and I move slowly towards retirement, we'll be spending more time up in Glos, so the cottage will deserve a better system.

So yes, lots of listening and experimenting to do. *drinks*

Are you thinking of selling your SF Cremona Auditor M's?

I'm looking for a pair.........

 

[CnoEvil]

@Matt

Interesting - thank you for the detailed reply.

 

[matt49]

Are you thinking of selling your SF Cremona Auditor M's?

I'm looking for a pair.........

Yes, by all means e-mail me on matthew[dot]g[dot]bell[at]gmail[dot]com.

Matt

 

[matt49]

Well, this is very interesting indeed.

While the decorators are working on the living room, I have the Martin Logans upstairs in my study. It’s only today that I’ve got round to doing a comparison between the ML/Magtech and the Sonus faber/Devialet set-ups. On Tuesday I have an old college friend coming over who’s thinking of buying some Martin Logans, so I thought it would be interesting for him to hear the MLs against the Sf/Devialet system. This afternoon I’ve been switching between the two, both fed by a modded Sonos Connect.

And the results?

The differences between the two systems aren’t as big as I’d expected. Before I go into detail, here’s a reminder of what’s on the table:

1. Sonos Connect W4S mod > Audiolab MDAC L2 “Toy” mod (in preamp mode) > Sanders Magtech power amp > Martin Logan Montis

2. Sonos Connect W4S mod > Devialet 200 > Sonus faber Cremona Auditor M

The trick is: I have the one Sonos connected to both systems and can switch instantaneously between them using the mute buttons on their respective remotes..

The first thing to note is SAM (which can be switched on and off via the Devialet remote). The difference between SAM on and SAM off is enormous. With SAM the Cremonas gain in precision, speed, richness and bass extension. It really is like having two different pairs of speakers.

What about the difference between the Cremonas (with SAM) and the Montis? The interesting thing is that it’s by no means as big as you’d expect. Both systems produce beautiful resolution of instrumental timbres. Voices are lush and immediate. Piano is rich and resonant. Music is sprightly, dramatic and true.

The Montis can do all the Cremonas can do, and the Cremonas can do much of what the Montis can do. To me that’s a really striking result. It says two things. First, a really good pair of speakers driven by their ideal partnering amp will be pretty close in performance. Second, I’d forgotten just how good the Cremonas are.

But … there’s always a ‘but’. The Montis are capable of three things that the Cremonas, for all their ravishing timbre and lovely timing, just can’t do. The Montis create a massive space: this is most noticeable with big operatic recordings, and it can be spine-chillingly good. The Montis also have better definition: compared to them, the Cremonas just sound the faintest bit woolly. And thirdly the Montis go louder with less effort. They go humungously loud and they never get confused or hard: the perfect separation of instruments and the exact rendition of timbres is always there. Oh and a fourth thing: having done lots of switching between the two systems this afternoon and evening, I've always come back to the Montis. Always.

Still, massive credit to the Cremonas. OK, they’re being driven by arguably one of the best amps on the planet (and with an RRP 50% greater than the combo that’s driving the Montis), but they really are lovely. I’m now wondering whether I want to sell them.

*shok*

 

[CnoEvil]

I’m now wondering whether I want to sell them.

You know my view. *smile*