The new AVI ADM5 active loudspeakers.

[Covenanter]

Another case of the AVI lobby hijacking this forum. I actually think most of the AVI lobby should be banned from this forum.

Chris

 

[altruistic.lemon]

You think that pre-amps don't matter?

You think that preamps in an AVR are no good?

Whether an AVR or a stereo amplifier, I don't think it's very good advice to say that any old pre amp will be effectively transparent.

Pretty much any preamp (botched designs aside) should be nigh on transparent. They don't usually produce enough distortion to be audible in themselves. That aside, everyone uses a preamp of some description anyway, it's the first stage in the amplification chain, so you can imagine that there's quite a lot of choice so long as a preout is available.

If distortion is of concern, then there are plenty of choices for the more discerning.

So this is the 2nd commandment, all preamps sound the same, the one before all DACs sound the same? Really!

Could you provide fully annotated references for you wild assertions, please.

 

[steve_1979]

I don't think it's very good advice to say that any old pre amp will be effectively transparent.

No one has said that just any old pre amp will do. :wall:

But I'm pretty sure that the major large companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are capable of designing and implementing a DAC and pre-amp without there being enough distortion for it to make any audiable difference to the sound.

All of the pro-audio DACs and pre-amps from Roland, Behringer and TC Electronics that I've heard were all indistinguishable to each other and so was my old Yamaha RX-V667 AV receiver.

 

[John Duncan]

Another case of the AVI lobby hijacking this forum. I actually think most of the AVI lobby should be banned from this forum.

Chris

I disagree on both your points. This is a thread about an AVI product, started by a non-AVI owner, because it may be of interest to others. One might reasonably expect other AVI owners to have a view. Secondly, I'll leave the banning of those who are off-message to other forums...

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Another case of the AVI lobby hijacking this forum. I actually think most of the AVI lobby should be banned from this forum.

Chris

I disagree on both your points. This is a thread about an AVI product, started by a non-AVI owner, because it may be of interest to others. One might reasonably expect other AVI owners to have a view. Secondly, I'll leave the banning of those who are off-message to other forums...

Hang on, seldom do I disagree with you, JD, but this thread was started on behalf of an AVI owner, who for reasons still unexplained felt he couldn't start it himself.

 

[John Duncan]

Hang on, seldom do I disagree with you, JD, but this thread was started on behalf of an AVI owner, who for reasons still unexplained felt he couldn't start it himself.

...who gave his reasons for doing so, which were to not allow a useful thread to go too far off topic.

To be fair to richardw42 as well, I think he believed that moderators would be able to move those posts to a new thread, which was not the case.

 

[John Duncan]

No one has said that just any old pre amp will do. :wall:

Using a cheap AV receiver isn't an issue for sound quality either because you're not going to be using its built in power amplifiers so it's unlikely to have any derogatory effect on the sound quality because you're only using its DAC and pre-amp features.

 

[Dave_]

A shame there's still no useful info on them yet.

Just the usual sycophantic [EDITED BY MODS], and agenda ridden, tag team [EDITED BY MODS] that emanate from avi forums

 

[John Duncan]

[UNPUBLISHED]

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Hang on, seldom do I disagree with you, JD, but this thread was started on behalf of an AVI owner, who for reasons still unexplained felt he couldn't start it himself.

...who gave his reasons for doing so, which were to not allow a useful thread to go too far off topic. To be fair to richardw42 as well, I think he believed that moderators would be able to move those posts to a new thread, which was not the case.

True, but he could have started it himself, no need to involve someone else.

 

[steve_1979]

No one has said that just any old pre amp will do. :wall:

Using a cheap AV receiver isn't an issue for sound quality either because you're not going to be using its built in power amplifiers so it's unlikely to have any derogatory effect on the sound quality because you're only using its DAC and pre-amp features.

Do you think that major multi-million dollar companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are going to botch the pre-amp section on their AVRs?

 

[John Duncan]

Do you think that major multi-million dollar companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are going to botch the pre-amp section on their AVRs?

The £200 ones or the £2000 ones?

 

[chebby]

True, but he could have started it himself, no need to involve someone else.

Can we let this go now? You've made your point amply.

I was happy to do it and agreed with the reason.

 

[Overdose]

So this is the 2nd commandment, all preamps sound the same, the one before all DACs sound the same? Really!

Could you provide fully annotated references for you wild assertions, please.

We've been here before. You've said yourself that you don'tunderstand such thechnical info. Most of any of the tiny differences between preamps/headphone amps, come about by impedance mismatching between the amp and the load. If the preamp is operating within tolerance and not trying to drive too high a load, then yes, it will be audibly transparent to a simialrly loaded and specced preamp. Anything can be made to sound different by exceeding the design specs of course.

You also need to consider how much distortion is actually audible, which is surprisingly high, certainly higher than that generated by a preamp.

 

[steve_1979]

Do you think that major multi-million dollar companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are going to botch the pre-amp section on their AVRs?

The £200 ones or the £2000 ones?

Do you think that major multi-million dollar companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are going to botch the pre-amp section on their £200 AVRs?

My £300 Yamaha AVR sounded identical to the expensive pro-audio gear which is audiably transparent .

 

[John Duncan]

Do you think that major multi-million dollar companies like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo are going to botch the pre-amp section on their £200 AVRs?

Botch, no. Compromise, yes.

My £300 Yamaha AVR was audiably transparent and sounded identical to expensive pro-audio gear.

How do you know that either was transparent, and how did you ABX them?

 

[altruistic.lemon]

True, but he could have started it himself, no need to involve someone else.

Can we let this go now? You've made your point amply.

I was happy to do it and agreed with the reason.

That surprised me, that you of all people would do this. Richard is an adult, he should have had the courage of his convictions and done it himself.

 

[Overdose]

True, but he could have started it himself, no need to involve someone else.

Can we let this go now? You've made your point amply.

I was happy to do it and agreed with the reason.

That surprised me, that you of all people would do this. Richard is an adult, he should have had the courage of his convictions and done it himself.

I believe that Richard42 was asking for a moderator in general to move the surplus posts from one thread to another. I don't think he intended another forum user to do it and I'm sure that if he realised the limitations of the forum software, would have quite happily started a new thread himself.

Nothing particularly sinister or conspiratorial and certainly not really worth any more comment.

 

[steve_1979]

Botch, no. Compromise, yes.

Even in a £200 AVR if the pre-amp is introducing enough distortion for it to be audiable then it must be botched.

How do you know that either was transparent, and how did you ABX them?

We used blind A/B comparisons.

The levels were matched by ear but they were close enough for us not to be able to hear any differences between the various pro-audio DACs and pre-amps that we tried.

 

[Covenanter]

Another case of the AVI lobby hijacking this forum. I actually think most of the AVI lobby should be banned from this forum.

Chris

I disagree on both your points. This is a thread about an AVI product, started by a non-AVI owner, because it may be of interest to others. One might reasonably expect other AVI owners to have a view. Secondly, I'll leave the banning of those who are off-message to other forums...

John

You are the moderator of this forum but that doesn't mean you know you are right!

Chris

 

[altruistic.lemon]

True, but he could have started it himself, no need to involve someone else.

Can we let this go now? You've made your point amply.

I was happy to do it and agreed with the reason.

That surprised me, that you of all people would do this. Richard is an adult, he should have had the courage of his convictions and done it himself.

I believe that Richard42 was asking for a moderator in general to move the surplus posts from one thread to another. I don't think he intended another forum user to do it and I'm sure that if he realised the limitations of the forum software, would have quite happily started a new thread himself.

Nothing particularly sinister or conspiratorial and certainly not really worth any more comment.

Indeed, no-one has suggested such, but he did specifically ask someone else to start the thread, which to me showed a certain lack of - well, guts. I'm a simple person who believed that, if you want to do something like that, you do it yourself. I mean, this is a hifi forum, relatively un important in the overall scheme of things, nothing to lose.

I mean, if I thought the way to get rich was to rob a bank, then I'd do it myself, not ask someone else - hang on a minute - Chebby, I have a tiny favour to ask....

 

[Supreme]

I have just one question. Why do AVI owners feel the need to evangelise these active speakers in the way that you do. There are many conversations on these forums between people who own or admire different brands and the threads never seem to get into such a fizz.

 

[Overdose]

Another case of the AVI lobby hijacking this forum. I actually think most of the AVI lobby should be banned from this forum.

Chris

I disagree on both your points. This is a thread about an AVI product, started by a non-AVI owner, because it may be of interest to others. One might reasonably expect other AVI owners to have a view. Secondly, I'll leave the banning of those who are off-message to other forums...

John

You are the moderator of this forum but that doesn't mean you know you are right!

Chris

I'm sure JD knows what he knows.

 

[steve_1979]

So this is the 2nd commandment

:roll:

all preamps sound the same, the one before all DACs sound the same? Really!

Could you provide fully annotated references for you wild assertions, please.

Using various active studio monitors to do listening comparisons I have compared a few pro-audio DACs and pre-amps and they all sound identical to my ears. The same can be said of the Yamaha RX-V667 AVR that I've compared.

 

[John Duncan]

Even in a £200 AVR if the pre-amp is introducing enough distortion for it to be audiable then it must be botched.

Why do Yamaha even bother building £2,000 receivers?

We used blind A/B comparisons.

The levels were matched by ear but they were close enough

That's not very scientific, Steve...