The Musical Fidelity AMS 35i thread

[CnoEvil]

Any thoughts?

Matt

Hmmm! (What does the dealer think?).

IMO. You need (if possible) to transpose the whole system you heard and liked (preferably complete with cables) at the dealer today, into your room (ie. source + speakers). If there is still a problem, it has to be room acoustics (more likely); or polluted mains (less likely). In the past I have had an i/c that caused sibilance (unlikely as that may seem).

At this stage it's a matter of elimination.

FWIW. I think the Proac D30Rs would be a lovely mix with the 35i .......maybe you will be allowed to hold onto the amp long enough to try a variety of different speakers.

 

[James7]

Hi Matt. It's fascinating watching your journey. I am truly envious.

it seems the MF / Harbeth conbibation in your room just isn't working as a unit and although I don't know the Harbeths, given that you said they sounded very good with Devialet I am not totally surprised as the Devialet sound must be very different from the AMS.

You have mentioned the MF / PMC Fact 8 combination more than once though. Have you tried an extensive listen to this combination at home?

Electrocompaniet would be really worth investigating as a potential source - the 1/S SACD player as well as the 1-UP if you use SACD.

The Naim DAC sounds a steal at its price, especially if the headphone amp is as good as you suggest.

best of luck. You'll get there.

 

[Macspur]

Matt, do you recall hearing sibilance through the Harbeths on any of the other set ups you've demoed over the last few weeks?

If, as I think, the answer is no, it would appear, for whatever reason, whether be room acoustics, or something else, it's not a good match for you.

A shame, but all is not lost... still the Devialet to try, or the MF with other speakers... or, Accuphase E360!

 

[matt49]

The room acoustics are certainly a plausible culprit. I don't have enough experience in this area to form a view. Have you ever heard of poor acoustics causing the impression of sibilance?

Probably the best thing to do next would be to get the PMC Fact 8s in. On the subject of cables, I'm using the same interconnects as the dealer, but the speaker cables are different, so that might be worth investigating.

I do like the look of the Proac D30Rs, and also the sound, from the very brief listen I had this morning. Very smooth and sweet.

I can keep the amp until Friday. Not much time to demo speakers. Once it's gone, I'll still be able borrow a new AMS35i close to home.

:cheers:

Matt

PS have you tried using the balanced inputs in your AMS35i? It seems to make a difference in terms of S/N ratio. I'm looking forward to plugging my MDAC into the AMS35i via balanced XLRs.

 

[Macspur]

The room acoustics are certainly a plausible culprit. I don't have enough experience in this area to form a view. Have you ever heard of poor acoustics causing the impression of sibilance?

Probably the best thing to do next would be to get the PMC Fact 8s in. On the subject of cables, I'm using the same interconnects as the dealer, but the speaker cables are different, so that might be worth investigating.

I do like the look of the Proac D30Rs, and also the sound, from the very brief listen I had this morning. Very smooth and sweet.

I can keep the amp until Friday. Not much time to demo speakers. Once it's gone, I'll still be able borrow a new AMS35i close to home.

:cheers:

Matt

PS have you tried using the balanced inputs in your AMS35i? It seems to make a difference in terms of S/N ratio. I'm looking forward to plugging my MDAC into the AMS35i via balanced XLRs.

Without wishing to start a whole debate on the subject, personally, I wouldn't use anything else other than balanced i.c's... Electrocompaniet actively encourage it for best results.

and it certainly works for me.

Mac

 

[CnoEvil]

The room acoustics are certainly a plausible culprit. I don't have enough experience in this area to form a view. Have you ever heard of poor acoustics causing the impression of sibilance?

Probably the best thing to do next would be to get the PMC Fact 8s in. On the subject of cables, I'm using the same interconnects as the dealer, but the speaker cables are different, so that might be worth investigating.

I do like the look of the Proac D30Rs, and also the sound, from the very brief listen I had this morning. Very smooth and sweet.

I can keep the amp until Friday. Not much time to demo speakers. Once it's gone, I'll still be able borrow a new AMS35i close to home.

:cheers:

Matt

PS have you tried using the balanced inputs in your AMS35i? It seems to make a difference in terms of S/N ratio. I'm looking forward to plugging my MDAC into the AMS35i via balanced XLRs.

The wrong room acoustics can make it sound like you've set the system up in a tiled bathroom.

Unless you go back to what you know sounds right, you can end up going round in circles......hearing the system in a different room (at a dealer) is also another possibility.

I believe you heard 35i + Fact 8 with AR CD5 and AMS CD......which sounded better?

You also enjoyed the sound when you heard the Copland CDA825 (with the Devialet)......everything is worth bearing in mind when piecing together the puzzle.

The other time you heard sibilance was when B&Ws were connected the first time you heard the 35i.....this may mean something.

I remember being involved in a thread a while ago, where the guy (SuperGalloot), ended up with Sugden Masterclass CDP, Pre + Monos, and some Proac D38s, and was completely thrilled.

 

[matt49]

Without wishing to start a whole debate on the subject, personally, I wouldn't use anything else other than balanced i.c's... Electrocompaniet actively encourage it for best results.

and it certainly works for me.

Mac

As I understand the theory (and I may not have understood it well), the benefit of balanced interconnects very much depends on how much of the signal path within the units (amp, DAC, CDP or whatever) is truly balanced. Some pieces of kit have balanced in/outputs but not much balanced circuitry inside, and in this case balanced interconnects don't give you much benefit. But some kit is balanced right through, so balanced interconnects give real benefits. The AMS35i falls into the latter category. The same may be true of Electro and Accuphase.

:cheers:

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

PS have you tried using the balanced inputs in your AMS35i? It seems to make a difference in terms of S/N ratio. I'm looking forward to plugging my MDAC into the AMS35i via balanced XLRs.

My MDS doesn't have them, so I can't comment.....though I know that the Electro stuff sounds better with them. Some of the slightly older Linn stuff was supposed to sound better through RCA, so trial and error is advisable.

 

[matt49]

I believe you heard 35i + Fact 8 with AR CD5 and AMS CD......which sounded better?

Both were superb. I couldn't say which was better without hearing them side by side.

You also enjoyed the sound when you heard the Copland CDA825 (with the Devialet)......everything is worth bearing in mind when piecing together the puzzle.

The other time you heard sibilance was when B&Ws were connected the first time you heard the 35i.....this may mean something.

Both true, and I'm deeply impressed by your recall, Cno!

I wonder if the connection between the B&W sibilance and the Super HL5 sibilance has to do with tweeter design. My local dealer (who says the B&W 80...s are his best selling speakers BTW) reckons the B&Ws are "marmite" speakers: people either love them or hate them. And he thinks this is all down to the diamond tweeters. So I wonder ...

I remember being involved in a thread a while ago, where the guy (SuperGalloot), ended up with Sugden Masterclass CDP, Pre + Monos, and some Proac D38s, and was completely thrilled.

Nice system! Very grown up.

 

[CnoEvil]

.........and I'm deeply impressed by your recall, Cno!

Don't be. I had a bit of nosing about to confirm. :shifty:

 

[matt49]

Don't be. I had a bit of nosing about to confirm. :shifty:

In that case, I'm impressed by the time and effort you put in (seriously).

 

[CnoEvil]

Don't be. I had a bit of nosing about to confirm. :shifty:

In that case, I'm impressed by the time and effort you put in (seriously).

You haven't seen the bill yet!

 

[matt49]

This morning I messed about with some duvets, to see if this might improve the room acoustics and deal with the sibilance.

In fact, the room isn't so bad. It has very little in the way of unbroken surfaces and is a bit cluttered. There are lots of bookcases, which are good for dispersing reflections. There's a large L-shaped leather sofa (not so good) but it's covered in non-leather cushions (good). The floor is suspended wooden boards (not good), but they're a 3" thick sandwich, and most of the floor between speakers and listening position is covered by a thick rug. Hanging from the middle of the ceiling is a large lampshade made of interwoven soft plastic strips (much nicer than it sounds). The rear wall is punctuated by three deeply recessed windows and is about 2 metres behind the listening position.

So I put down three double duvets: one in the middle of the floor, one hanging from the middle of each side wall (which took a bit of ingenuity).

The effect was, in short, negligible. I wasn't expecting any change in bass performance (and that wasn't why I did it anyway), but I thought it might tame the treble slightly. It didn't. Still, worth a try ...

Matt

 

[Macspur]

Matt,

The family will think you've lost the plot lol!

From what you describe, your room doesn't seem as if it's likely to be the cause.

Any luck with getting hold of other speakers?

It might be worth dropping in on the Harbeth SHL5 forum, or even dropping Alan Shaw an Email.

Here is a thread... haven't read it in full, but might be of help

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?515-quot-S-for-Sibilance-quot-a-case-study-in-deduction

Mac

 

[Singslinger]

Hi Matt, FWIW, I'd agree with CnoEvil that the AMS35i would most probably work very well with the ProAc D30s. I'd also recommend going for the ribbon tweeter version because these tend to sound better when driven by class A amps.

Good luck!

 

[matt49]

Matt,

The family will think you've lost the plot lol!

From what you describe, your room doesn't seem as if it's likely to be the cause.

Any luck with getting hold of other speakers?

It might be worth dropping in on the Harbeth SHL5 forum, or even dropping Alan Shaw an Email.

Here is a thread... haven't read it in full, but might be of help

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?515-quot-S-for-Sibilance-quot-a-case-study-in-deduction

Mac

Mac,

thanks for the Harbeth forum link. Interesting, though a little frustrating. It seems as though changing cables and doing some room treatment made a small improvement to the sibilance, but that the really significant improvement came from changing what the poster tantalizingly refers to as 'one component in the system'. Unfortunately he doesn't say which component it was!

The AMS35i is going back to Scotland today. I've decided on a slight change of tack. In the next week or so my local dealer should get the Devialet 170 in. Then I'll be able to demo the Devialet and AMS35I side by side with a couple of different speakers.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt, FWIW, I'd agree with CnoEvil that the AMS35i would most probably work very well with the ProAc D30s. I'd also recommend going for the ribbon tweeter version because these tend to sound better when driven by class A amps.

Good luck!

Cheers, Singslinger,

I plan to demo that combo pretty soon.

Matt

 

[Electro]

This morning I messed about with some duvets, to see if this might improve the room acoustics and deal with the sibilance.

In fact, the room isn't so bad. It has very little in the way of unbroken surfaces and is a bit cluttered. There are lots of bookcases, which are good for dispersing reflections. There's a large L-shaped leather sofa (not so good) but it's covered in non-leather cushions (good). The floor is suspended wooden boards (not good), but they're a 3" thick sandwich, and most of the floor between speakers and listening position is covered by a thick rug. Hanging from the middle of the ceiling is a large lampshade made of interwoven soft plastic strips (much nicer than it sounds). The rear wall is punctuated by three deeply recessed windows and is about 2 metres behind the listening position.

So I put down three double duvets: one in the middle of the floor, one hanging from the middle of each side wall (which took a bit of ingenuity).

The effect was, in short, negligible. I wasn't expecting any change in bass performance (and that wasn't why I did it anyway), but I thought it might tame the treble slightly. It didn't. Still, worth a try ...

Matt

Matt ,

You mention three deeply recessed windows 2 metres behind you listening position , in my opinion they could be the source of some nasty and complex reflections that could possibly be amplifying the the sibilance you are hearing .

Try hanging your duvets over these recesses to see it is reduces the sibilance problem .

If the duvets cure the problem some double thickness heavy curtains across the recesses would have a similar effect .

It's worth a try because I have a feeling the window recesses may be a large part of the problem . 🙂

 

[Macspur]

This morning I messed about with some duvets, to see if this might improve the room acoustics and deal with the sibilance.

In fact, the room isn't so bad. It has very little in the way of unbroken surfaces and is a bit cluttered. There are lots of bookcases, which are good for dispersing reflections. There's a large L-shaped leather sofa (not so good) but it's covered in non-leather cushions (good). The floor is suspended wooden boards (not good), but they're a 3" thick sandwich, and most of the floor between speakers and listening position is covered by a thick rug. Hanging from the middle of the ceiling is a large lampshade made of interwoven soft plastic strips (much nicer than it sounds). The rear wall is punctuated by three deeply recessed windows and is about 2 metres behind the listening position.

So I put down three double duvets: one in the middle of the floor, one hanging from the middle of each side wall (which took a bit of ingenuity).

The effect was, in short, negligible. I wasn't expecting any change in bass performance (and that wasn't why I did it anyway), but I thought it might tame the treble slightly. It didn't. Still, worth a try ...

Matt

Matt ,

You mention three deeply recessed windows 2 metres behind you listening position , in my opinion they could be the source of some nasty and complex reflections that could possibly be amplifying the the sibilance you are hearing .

Try hanging your duvets over these recesses to see it is reduces the sibilance problem .

If the duvets cure the problem some double thickness heavy curtains across the recesses would have a similar effect .

It's worth a try because I have a feeling the window recesses may be a large part of the problem . 🙂

That was the only thing in the room that I thought may be causing the problem, but wasn't sure as 2m is quite a bit of space and didn't know how much of an impact it would have.

Like you say, worth hanging the Duvets up, just don't forget to take them down again Matt!

Mac

 

[Macspur]

Matt,

The family will think you've lost the plot lol!

From what you describe, your room doesn't seem as if it's likely to be the cause.

Any luck with getting hold of other speakers?

It might be worth dropping in on the Harbeth SHL5 forum, or even dropping Alan Shaw an Email.

Here is a thread... haven't read it in full, but might be of help

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?515-quot-S-for-Sibilance-quot-a-case-study-in-deduction

Mac

Mac,

thanks for the Harbeth forum link. Interesting, though a little frustrating. It seems as though changing cables and doing some room treatment made a small improvement to the sibilance, but that the really significant improvement came from changing what the poster tantalizingly refers to as 'one component in the system'. Unfortunately he doesn't say which component it was!

The AMS35i is going back to Scotland today. I've decided on a slight change of tack. In the next week or so my local dealer should get the Devialet 170 in. Then I'll be able to demo the Devialet and AMS35I side by side with a couple of different speakers.

Cheers,

Matt

Pleasure Matt.

Alan Shaw does say that he has never come across sibilance problems with Harbeth speakers before, I know one would expect him to, but he is undoubtedly a well respected engineer within the industry, so one would hope he is being totally honest when he says such a thing.

On this occasion, I think it may well be down to system synergy with a touch of room acoustics muddying the water further.

Will you be able to do the side by side demo of the Devialet and AMS at home? I think it's essential you do in case it is a room acoustics problem afterall.

Mac

 

[matt49]

Matt ,

You mention three deeply recessed windows 2 metres behind you listening position , in my opinion they could be the source of some nasty and complex reflections that could possibly be amplifying the the sibilance you are hearing .

Try hanging your duvets over these recesses to see it is reduces the sibilance problem .

If the duvets cure the problem some double thickness heavy curtains across the recesses would have a similar effect .

It's worth a try because I have a feeling the window recesses may be a large part of the problem . 🙂

Thanks, Electro.

I gave this a whirl, but I'm afraid it didn't make any appreciable difference. Still, worth a try, and thanks for the suggestion.

Matt

 

[matt49]

Pleasure Matt.

Alan Shaw does say that he has never come across sibilance problems with Harbeth speakers before, I know one would expect him to, but he is undoubtedly a well respected engineer within the industry, so one would hope he is being totally honest when he says such a thing.

On this occasion, I think it may well be down to system synergy with a touch of room acoustics muddying the water further.

Will you be able to do the side by side demo of the Devialet and AMS at home? I think it's essential you do in case it is a room acoustics problem afterall.

Mac

I'll definitely be demoing the systems at home. After this experience, there's no way I'll spend big money without a home trial.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[matt49]

I waved goodbye to the AMS35i this afternoon. Sad to see it go, but I don't think it's the last I'll see of it.

Before it went I made one last attempt to get to the bottom of the sibilance conundrum, or at least to eliminate the room acoustics factor. Turning the volume down very low, I put my ear right up against the tweeter. To further reduce the effect of room acoustics I made a 'tent' over the speaker and myself with a heavy blanket. (Fortunately the family were all out, but then they think I'm bonkers anyway ...) Under these conditions, the influence room acoustics should be negligible, but the sibilance was still obviously there. It seems to me the sibilance must have been coming from the system, not the room.

 

[Supreme]

Hi Matt

Are you sold on the Harbeths or still open to exploring other brands?

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt

Are you sold on the Harbeths or still open to exploring other brands?

Hi Pete,

The Harbeths are lovely speakers. I've heard the AMS35i work very well with the PMC Fact 8s, and I'm definitely going to demo the new Proac D30Rs. In fact the speaker list is still quite long: Neat, Focal, Spendor, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, KEF, Kudos ...

One (minor) downside of the Harbeths is their boxy appearance, though earlier this evening Mrs 49 came into the living room for a quick word and put her tea-cup on top of one of the SHL5s. I ticked her off, and she said she liked the speakers because they were nice and big and you could put things on them. (Yet another variant of the cliche: "mywife/partner walked into the room and said ...")

:cheers:

Matt