The importance of 5 star ratings.

[Clare Newsome]

chebby:
(Doesn't WHF have a talented speaker designer tucked away in their review team somewhere? I am sure I have seen it mentioned. I would love to see an article about it.)

Our tech ed has dabbled in speaker design - but only for his own pleasure, not commercial intent!

 

[Alec]

Yes, but what did Gazza expect? For you to say "yup, fair cop, we gave that panny tv 5 stars because of the ad on the next page and the nice new telly they sent to each editor"?!

 

[Clare Newsome]

I'm sure some people can do it, but someone as passionate as I is not going to passively stand by and let someone repeat a slanderous comment about my brand - on our own website- and decline to respond with the truth. You don't have to read it if it bores you!

 

[sonycentre]

I think people should just let there ears and eyes be the judge.Just use the mag as a guide,and let it entertain you,you will never be able to please everyone all of the time.i get it in the store i work at,you can have some really negative people around.i do not let it phaze me at all,just smile.yes we only sell one brand and i love to look around to see what the compertition is doing but i would never slag another brand off.Becouse that would make me look stupid and scared of what i do sell,but people will allways

say what thay think that they belive in.

just

 

[pete321]

sonycentre:I think people should just let there ears and eyes be the judge.

Not so easy these days which is why the importance of WHF is more so than it used to be. My local audio retailer used to stock a massive amount of different brands. I used to be able to go in and borrow kit for a couple of days before buying. Don't get that option anymore and the amount of products stocked is greatly reduced. A retailer isn't going to recommend kit that he doesn't stock!

In the main, most of my purchases over the years have been WHF 5 star products and I've been on the most part pleased with them. Although I must admit I've been disappointed by some more recent purchases, noteably the Arcam AVR600 and Denon DVD-2500BT. But although I think there were things in my opinion that should have lowered the 5 star ratings these got, ultimately it was my decision to buy them on the strength of their rating only.

 

[matthewpiano]

pete321:
sonycentre:I think people should just let there ears and eyes be the judge.

Not so easy these days which is why the importance of WHF is more so than it used to be. My local audio retailer used to stock a massive amount of different brands. I used to be able to go in and borrow kit for a couple of days before buying. Don't get that option anymore and the amount of products stocked is greatly reduced. A retailer isn't going to recommend kit that he doesn't stock!

You make a very good point. It can be very difficult to find retailers who have the items you want to audition in stock and, understandably in this climate, most retailers will only order an item in if its a guaranteed sale. They can't afford to keep adding less popular items to their stock holding.

I believe this is one of the main reasons why the 2nd hand market is so bouyant because it means people can try out products by highly regarded brands like Arcam and Naim with very little risk, as long as they are bought at the right price.

sonycentre - Its good to hear that you focus on the positives of our product rather than slagging off the competition. That is the way I work as well, even when it is clear our competitors have been slagging off Sony products. Contact time with customers is very valuable so I don't understand why some people waste it being negative about the stuff they don't sell. Much better to use that time to build a positive image of the brand and product we're selling, and to arm the customer with the demonstration and facts they need to make an informed decision.

 

[Andrew Everard]

matthewpiano:understandably in this climate, most retailers will only order an item in if its a guaranteed sale.

So they're not actually selling anymore, but merely box-shifting...?

 

[matthewpiano]

Andrew Everard:
matthewpiano:understandably in this climate, most retailers will only order an item in if its a guaranteed sale.

So they're not actually selling anymore, but merely box-shifting...?

I think the truth is somewhere between the two. Most retailers stock a very focused range of kit that they know they can sell following proper demonstration and discussion with a customer.

However, commercial realities do have to play a part. Managing stock holding is vital and most hi-fi dealers are small companies that cannot afford to end up with additional products that they wouldn't normally range, and which they may find hard to sell, languishing on the shop floor.

Retailers/dealers in this industry don't have the option of sale or return.

I'm not saying its ideal, but we aren't living in an ideal climate.

 

[Andrew Everard]

matthewpiano:
I'm not saying its ideal, but we aren't living in an ideal climate.

I would have thought that the Current Economic ClimateT would present an ideal situation for retail staff to demonstrate their sales skills by contacting customers and promoting products they really believe in, or which they feel offer particularly good value for money, rather than waiting for five-star reviews to determine which products to stock.

 

[floyd droid]

chebby:

Another UK Hifi mag (I will not name it) has had quite a firestorm lately over a member of it's staff favourably reviewing products from a company that the said member then went on to become a VP of marketing for!

I got the impression that the member of staff was asked to step down so as to save the unmentioned mag from being accused of being biased,which makes sense realy. By the way chebby,have a guess who the unmentioned persons other half works for, and has been for a long time. I got this nugget from a very prominant figure in the trade.

 

[matthewpiano]

Andrew Everard:
matthewpiano:
I'm not saying its ideal, but we aren't living in an ideal climate.

I would have thought that the Current Economic ClimateT would present an ideal situation for retail staff to demonstrate their sales skills by contacting customers and promoting products they really believe in, or which they feel offer particularly good value for money, rather than waiting for five-star reviews to determine which products to stock.

I would say retailers/dealers ARE promoting products they really believe in, and mostly off the back of manufacturer's representatives showing store managers and buyers the product before release and well before any 5 star reviews are awarded. Those are the ones that get ranged and made available for demonstration. The issue here is with those products that retailers/dealers perhaps don't believe in as much and choose not to range, but which a customer might occasionally request to audition. Interestingly, when I worked for a main dealer for a quality marque in the car industry, there were times when I couldn't even get hold of a demonstrator for a particular version of a car. Sometimes I ended up having to test drive a customer in, for example, a manual Golf GTI and then in a different model with a DSG gearbox and expect the customer to collate the two experiences before making a decision on purchasing a £20k + car.

I agree with you about the process of selling. I've been into quite a few hi-fi shops lately and have felt with most of them as though there was very little actual selling going on. The prevailing attitude seems to be quite a laid back one and I think there needs to be more fight to secure sales.

(BTW I'm talking about specialist hi-fi shops here. Where I work things are different because, despite Sony Centres being independently run, Sony do have a lot of influence on stocking policies, store presentation and sales/demonstration process, and active selling based on the needs of the customer is part and parcel of that. They are also very demanding about standards because we represent one of the brand's main interfaces with the customer.)

 

[chebby]

A £350 budget amp takes up 2 square feet of shop space (plus more for the box out the back) and even at full retail price it may not pay enough to cover the rent for that space.

Worse still is when a customer may not want the display item (or want it reduced because it has been opened) or wants an extended demo/home loan and even then may still buy it for £100 less from an internet trader who can store stock in a cheap warehouse in the middle of nowhere where rent is small by comparison.

Who can blame the retailer for only wanting the one £350 amp that has received 5 stars/Choice awards etc rather than a bunch of them with 3 or 4 star reviews? They have to eat and pay bills.

I have even been in a shop where a customer - who was paying for his gear - asked for the little WHF 5 Star display cards (presumably) so he could place them on his equipment at home!

At the level of budget gear like the £350 amp or CD player or the £200 speakers (even worse) I am convinced most dealers are only making healthy profit from the cables and accessories.

Higher up at the level of systems costing £thousands then generally customers tend to prefer to buy the one they heard if it sounds good (they know that it works) and are more self confident in their own assessment of the gear they are auditioning and less influenced by reviews in popular magazines or flavour-of-the-month items. The dealer/chain gets a few grand and even after overheads like ground rent there is some decent profit in it. (And with such specialist brands there is far less likelehood of being able to buy one off the internet cheaply after a time-wasting demo at the high street, 'shopfront' dealer's.)

I would not be suprised if any specialist hifi dealer stocks budget gear at all for any reason other than to 'snag' potential long term customers in the hope they will graduate to the 'hard stuff' later on.

 

[chebby]

floyd droid:
I got the impression that the member of staff was asked to step down so as to save the unmentioned mag from being accused of being biased,which makes sense realy. By the way chebby,have a guess who the unmentioned persons other half works for, and has been for a long time. I got this nugget from a very prominant figure in the trade.

Not quite the impression I get from the June 2009 editorial statement that is currently on the publication's own website. The person in question will just not be reviewing a particular category/brand of accessory from now on.

That was last month and quite possibly out-of-date. I must admit I have not followed the 'saga' with any great interest as the last time I bought their mag was late last year.

All a bit silly really.

(I just looked up who 'the other half' worked for all that time. Not suprised at all.)

 

[Andrew Everard]

Perhaps it would be better to discuss the internal politics of another publication on that publication's forum, if they offer one, rather than here.

 

[chebby]

That's the problem though. It is not 'internal politics' when it is all over the web and when people start assuming (wrongly of course) that the whole UK hifi magazine scene is probably up to the same 'game' in similar ways.

Clare alluded to the problem when she mentioned the frequency with which new members here display the same assumptions about WHF in their questions and have to be corrected time after time.

Historically things are no better. For example Ian Rankin telling us in a televsion interview last year (and inevitably quoted on the internet) that his tenure as acting editor at a UK hifi magazine was all about the expensive freebie systems and other 'treats' from the music and hifi industry.

It does not matter how many times WHF's unblemished reputation is rightly defended against the stains left by other magazine's staff past and present, people will think what they think.

Imagine there is a bank, somewhere out there, that have ethical and responsible investment practices and whose senior personnel receive bonuses for actually growing the business and profits and expanding their customer base and improving services and a bank which was never involved in any of the activities that caused the current financial slump. (Hard to imagine I know.) Any director of that bank in receipt of a well-earned bonus is still going to get 'tarred' with the same accusations levelled at the likes of Fred Goodwin.

 

[Sizzers]

As I think everyone agrees, the "Star" ratings are a guide - and just that - and in IMO they are generally excellent, but....

What really annoys - and confuses - me, is that just because product A costs £20-£30 (or whatever) more than product B, you'll give A 4 Stars and B 5 Stars, even though in your opinion A may well be the better product but just because it's that bit more expensive you knock it down.

Surely it's the readers job to decide what represents "value" and what/how much they want to spend their money on. I'm sure there are many people who only look at your 5 star ratings thinking well, it must be better than 4 stars, when in fact that may well not be the case. I think it would be better to give your honest appraisal of what you consider to be the best product in a given price range and then let people decide if it's worth the money.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Anonymous]

From what I understand Cyrus dealers buy models for demonstrations and then if you like it, a new one is ordered from the factory. but you won't get a discount. It may take several weeks for the item to arrive if the said model has a rave review from WHF.

When a replacement model appears the dealer may then sell the demonstration models for a reduced price.

 

[idc]

Is this issue of stock levels not a case of the Japanese 'just in time' stock level process replacing the past inefficient practice of keeping large stock levels? Hifi dealers have to be more efficient just like everyone else.

 

[matthewpiano]

Haha!!

'Just in time' doesn't work. It causes so many problems with stock availability that it loses more sales than anything else.

 

[idc]

Oh, so Sony do not do 'just in time' anymore? It is just that virtually any large or expensive item purchase now-a-days I expect to have to wait for delivery. Like the Sony Vaio I bought from Glasgow's Sony Centre a few months back!

 

[chebby]

When I was a kid there were these things called 'Tupperware parties'. I think an agent turned up at the party host's house with loads of stock and during the party stuff was demonstrated and orders taken.

Maybe this could work for a hifi dealership. No premises (except for secure storage of demo stock), a big van and a skilled helper to lift stuff around and connect/disconnect equipment during the evening.

I see plenty of complaints about how difficult it is for many people to get to demo a lot of equipment nowadays. A 'Tupperware' style operation could eventually get around entire regions - including those not served by traditional dealerships - with participants only having to travel as far as their next nearest scheduled 'hifi party'.

Such a mobile dealership could build up a huge network without needing to have more than one vanload of demo stock. Agents could be taught to demonstrate all the latest gizmos like DACs, wireless, streaming, iPod transports/docks etc. thus accelerating interest & demand beyond what happens now. (Waiting years for most people to even realise such things exist let alone that they even have a hifi application.) People could turn up with laptops/iPhones etc and listen to their own and other's music via a variety of system configurations thoughout an evening. (With a few beers and pizzas of course.)

I have read of similar things happening informally between a particular East Anglian dealership and a local audio club (members taking turns to host an occasional dealer evening with music, food, wine and demos of new hifi.)

I think people hosting these parties got a commission and/or a gift of some kind which has got to be less than the overheads on a chain of 'bricks & mortar' premises.

 

[Anonymous]

I need the advice of the WHF editors who are present in this thread - purely in terms of performance, is a 4-star product equal to a 5-star product of a lower price class? How much weight does your review team put on "low price"? If I have budget to stretch a little bit, how should I read the reports?

I understand that I should hear and see the products myself, but a lot of the times, I cannot compare them in an identical environment because the products are stocked by different retailers

 

[chebby]

I think it is a pretty easy assumption that if.. say ...a £500 amp (or speakers or whatever) gets 4 stars and then ends up - after a few months - being universally sold for £350 then it follows that you can add the missing star yourself. (Unless all the other class leading £500 amps are dropped to £350 during the same time period.)

 

[Anonymous]

thanks a lot.

 

[matthewpiano]

idc:Oh, so Sony do not do 'just in time' anymore? It is just that virtually any large or expensive item purchase now-a-days I expect to have to wait for delivery. Like the Sony Vaio I bought from Glasgow's Sony Centre a few months back!

They still do it. That is the problem.