The Great Cable Debate

[admin_exported]

Hi all,

I'm really interested in audiophile cables, from both a buying aspect and a science aspect. I'm a physicist, and find this a very interesting area of application []

My question is twofold. Firstly, is there a difference between digital cables as well as analogue cables? Secondly, what features/build qualities for a cable will increase.

On an auxilliary note, I'm interested if there are any double blind peer reviewed studies of what actual effect different cables have beyond placebo.

 

[Andrew Everard]

It's a small, petty squabble, not a Great Debate.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Frohicky:
Hi all,

I'm really interested in audiophile cables, from both a buying aspect and a science aspect. I'm a physicist, and find this a very interesting area of application

My question is twofold. Firstly, is there a difference between digital cables as well as analogue cables? Secondly, what features/build qualities for a cable will increase.

On an auxilliary note, I'm interested if there are any double blind peer reviewed studies of what actual effect different cables have beyond placebo.

Hi Frohicky

Ive seen an experiment where a guy measured jitter in a digital coaxial cable, and not only did he find that they differed, they were also found to be directional (higher jitter in one way over the other). So yes, id say there 'can' be differences.

When people measure hdmi leads they nearly always use the 'eye' test. I personally cant see that being too accurate. The equipment to measure true loss of information costs a hell of a lot of money though so I cant see that changing anytime soon.

As for the auxillary note ~ Ive scoured the net (Still ongoing) for answers. Ive not yet seem a single properly conducted blind test (be it ABX or blind or whatever) that has shown that speaker cables, interconnects, mains cables or digital cables make any difference.

Whilst I cant testify to actually being in a blind test myself ~

Ive found mains cables can 'definitely' make a difference (most extreme example was a sub moving the lighting fitting with one cable but not the other)

Certainly all cables can be 'measured' to be different. But as to them sounding different?

The general thought is that a properly constructed speaker cable and interconnect cable will all sound the same. They 'can' sound different, but thats usually (always?) down to some poor construction or material used or whatever. I was once testing cd players out ina hifi shop, and thought the bass was VERY weak using Norost silver wind speaker cables (looks almost like a computers IDE cable). I cant remember what cable was put in its place but it was a lot thicker and a lot less expensive and sounded FAR better with bass.

Ive been a victim of the placebo effect myself ~ so I can certainly see both sides. Have you found any evidence yourself as yet?

 

[Anonymous]

the op could have a look at this thread , by the way , rik and i are friends again

.....

 

[aliEnRIK]

Andrew Everard:It's a small, petty squabble, not a Great Debate.

I completely disagree Andrew. The fact that ive yet to find a single blind test where 'anyone' can tell a difference is a tad worrying to me.

Lets just look at the sceptics side for a minute ~

Lets say someone buys some nordost valhalla speaker cable at whatever crazy price it costs (This is the one cable I DO want to test myself, not managed it as yet). We blind test him and he genuinely cant tell a difference from 'the muscles from brussels'

as an example

Fact is hes wasted his money (by a long LONG way).

Ive honestly scoured the net looking for anything at all to prove that speaker cables and interconnects do sound different. Even those that have said they could without any doubts have failed blind tests. One guy even took cables home and tested them for 3 months! After that 3 months he admitted he had no idea which cable was which as they all sounded the same

Do you not think it at all odd that no one has yet produced concrete results in a 'properly conducted' blind test?

Im actually shocked myself (Statistics even say that youd expect 'someone' to get 90%+ correct in at least one test of hundreds on pure chance alone)

If the WHF team are so absolutely positive they make a 'difference', id be WAY more than interested in your 'properly constructed' blind test results (be it ABX or blind). As im sure many MANY others (possibly every hifi reader in the world actually for reasons im sure youll understand)

Just so we're clear ~ Im not saying they dont make a difference. Im saying id love ''proof' they do though (as would many MANY others)

Yes it would put a lot of companies out of business, but if that business is based on a lie then that sounds pretty fair to me.

 

[aliEnRIK]

maxflinn: rik and i are friends again

.....

You once classed me as a 'none friend'???

 

[Anonymous]

i was only teasing at the time

 

[aliEnRIK]

maxflinn:the op could have a look at this thread ....

Ive just realised something. That could possibly be the longest 'cable debate' thread ive seen on here

which

SHOCK

.........................isnt LOCKED!!

 

[plastic penguin]

aliEnRIK:

maxflinn:the op could have a look at this thread ....

Ive just realised something. That could possibly be the longest 'cable debate' thread ive seen on here

which

SHOCK

.........................isnt LOCKED!!

This one could change that very quickly.

All cable threads are pretty dour, cables make a subtle difference but not enough to justify the popularity IMHO.

NB: At least the OP placed this in the right section.

 

[Andrew Everard]

aliEnRIK:Ive just realised something. That could possibly be the longest 'cable debate' thread ive seen on here
which

SHOCK

.........................isnt LOCKED!!

No, there are others much longer, some of them even mentioning light goods vehicles and Hoover, for which many thanks...

 

[fayeanddavid]

Surely, if you like what you hear/see that is subjective enough, no matter opinion.

Virtually anything today can be proved/disproved at the same time, depends which camp you choose to sit in, and how interpretations are worded

In absolute terms all should be measured, whether that is packets of data, resistance/impedance/capacitance of cables, optical transmission, terminations etc.........................but is it really important?

A car is a car so by the same analogy a cable is a cable..........................where you start and stop in what you want is the question, that is based on performance measured and subjective acceptance

 

[aliEnRIK]

fayeanddavid:
Surely, if you like what you hear/see that is subjective enough, no matter opinion.

Its for that exact same reason that the drugs companies are rolling in money. So no, I completely disagree

 

[aliEnRIK]

If cables were proven to not make any difference, would you still buy that 'branded' cable costing many times more when it wasnt needed? (Aside from if it aesthetically fits)

 

[chebby]

aliEnRik, what is this discussion going to achieve that all the the others failed to?

 

[JoelSim]

aliEnRIK:If cables were proven to not make any difference, would you still buy that 'branded' cable costing many times more when it wasnt needed? (Aside from if it aesthetically fits)

No I wouldn't. But I think that will never happen as they do make a difference. But like anything else, some are good and some aren't in my experience.

You also have to understand that a cable can actually be a cheap upgrade, even a Nordost Valhalla. For someone who has a £100k system, spending a grand or two on cables coul be much more cost-effective as an upgrade than buying a new amp for a further £50k.

 

[Anonymous]

"aliEnRik, what is this discussion going to achieve that all the the others failed to?"

the driving away of more and more people from what is in danger of becoming a tedious and ill informed forum perhaps ?

 

[idc]

Cables do make a difference, but not in the way that many say they do. Blind testing shows that even though there are small measurable electrical differences, such do not translate into audio differences.

Those that do hear differences are doing so for psychoacoustic and placebo reasons. There is nothing wrong with that and if someone is happy buying expensive brand name cables, so be it.

The real difference is that the sceptics prefer to save money and buy well made, not expensive often no brand cables and dispare at those who chose to buy audiophile cables AND claim non existent physical reasons for their cable sounding different.

 

[JoelSim]

idc:

Cables do make a difference, but not in the way that many say they do. Blind testing shows that even though there are small measurable electrical differences, such do not translate into audio differences.

Those that do hear differences are doing so for psychoacoustic and placebo reasons. There is nothing wrong with that and if someone is happy buying expensive brand name cables, so be it.

The real difference is that the sceptics prefer to save money and buy well made, not expensive often no brand cables and dispare at those who chose to buy audiophile cables AND claim non existent physical reasons for their cable sounding different.

I couldn't agree less idc. As I said, I've bought expensive cables before and sold them on as there is no difference. I've also bought cables which I still have as there was a considerable difference. This is all relative of course, but some have really had a positive effect.

 

[aliEnRIK]

JoelSim:
I couldn't agree less idc. As I said, I've bought expensive cables before and sold them on as there is no difference. I've also bought cables which I still have as there was a considerable difference. This is all relative of course, but some have really had a positive effect.

My personal viewpoint (And many others after ive scoured the net) is that cables 'can' make a 'difference'. But thats because theyre poorly constructed and physically change the actual signal. Properly constructed cables that are 'transparent' and dont change the signal (Apart from frequency extremes which ALL cables do ~ albeit theyre out of our audio range anyways) will all sound the same.

I mentioned the valhallas as a few people who agree with the above statement seem to think the valhallas (And presumably the rest of that range) are not to be bracketed in that rule. They say the cables transparent but you hear more detail. Id assume thats purely down to (if this is indeed correct, and if it is id love to know how it was achieved), the signal running down the line at approx +90% of the speed of light which would negate any errors. At least theres now a measureable difference as to 'why' it might sound more detailed. Personally id love to try this stuff out, purely out of sheer intrigue.

 

[aliEnRIK]

chebby:
aliEnRik, what is this discussion going to achieve that all the the others failed to?

Probably nothing. But if anyone has any concrete evidence ive missed im all ears (literally)

If people want to ignore tests and truly believe their 500 quid speaker cables sound better then thats upto them. Stay out of the thread and leave it to those that DO have an interest.

 

[chebby]

aliEnRIK:Stay out of the thread and leave it to those that DO have an interest.

Nice.

 

[aliEnRIK]

chebby:
aliEnRIK:Stay out of the thread and leave it to those that DO have an interest.

Nice.

I dont understand why people get upset over these threads. If it somehow 'upsets' you, then stay away. I dont see why people feel they need to defend themselves. This thread is purely about the truth. So those that are interested in the truth post away. Those that are getting a little upset (Though ive no idea why), I would 'advise' them not to post.

or should we just ban/lock all cable threads? (Which is where this will go if people keep squabbling)

 

[JoelSim]

aliEnRIK:JoelSim:

I couldn't agree less idc. As I said, I've bought expensive cables before and sold them on as there is no difference. I've also bought cables which I still have as there was a considerable difference. This is all relative of course, but some have really had a positive effect.

My personal viewpoint (And many others after ive scoured the net) is that cables 'can' make a 'difference'. But thats because theyre poorly constructed and physically change the actual signal. Properly constructed cables that are 'transparent' and dont change the signal (Apart from frequency extremes which ALL cables do ~ albeit theyre out of our audio range anyways) will all sound the same.

I mentioned the valhallas as a few people who agree with the above statement seem to think the valhallas (And presumably the rest of that range) are not to be bracketed in that rule. They say the cables transparent but you hear more detail. Id assume thats purely down to (if this is indeed correct, and if it is id love to know how it was achieved), the signal running down the line at approx +90% of the speed of light which would negate any errors. At least theres now a measureable difference as to 'why' it might sound more detailed. Personally id love to try this stuff out, purely out of sheer intrigue.

I can only go by what I've heard. In fact after hearing the difference a Shiva had on my system I went and bought two more Nordost cables. As many people will know from my hunting for bargains, I'm not one to throw money away.

 

[rbantges]

So has anyone been tempted to try for the $1M prize?

EDITED BY MODS - please read the House Rules.

Rich

 

[chebby]

Hehe. This is perfect. Shaping up nicely to be the duty moderator's favourite kind of weekend cable debate thread.