The DAC scam

[GroeneLeeuw]

I´m so glad I probably have bad hearing and do not hear all those differences between DAC (and cables).
Differences between speakers on the other hand I hear very well.

 

[Revolutions]

How much do the charge for an upgraded PSU for it to perform properly because they obviously can't design them properly at the first attempt?

Mine just has a kettle lead.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Update video 😛

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbcEgxm6RTU

haha, I'm glad guys like this are on YouTube. They wind audiophiles up no end and educate the masses.

 

[Al ears]

haha, I'm glad guys like this are on YouTube. They wind audiophiles up no end and educate the masses.

Nope. He's just someone else with an opinion.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Nope. He's just someone else with an opinion.

He has some facts and figures to back up his opinion. You are just someone with an opinion.

 

[Witterings]

haha, I'm glad guys like this are on YouTube. They wind audiophiles up no end and educate the masses.

I think people just laugh at him and his sad titles to be quite honest.

 

[davidf]

haha, I'm glad guys like this are on YouTube. They wind audiophiles up no end and educate the masses.

Anybody with a YouTube account can "educate".

 

[Dave_]

It's amusing how audiophiles look down at, and use "YouTuber" as a derogatory term when their "beliefs" are being challenged, but will happily share videos of subjective toss from self proclaimed "reviewers" that are in line with them ....

 

[davidf]

Many are only a level above "influencers", who are a group of people I utterly despise, as they're just people who get paid or get free stuff for making a video about something. It's worse than product placement in movies. Some people stir the **** on social media via the written word, but nobody takes notice of that, so they take to video, as it's quick, cheap, and easy to spread your agenda - and they can get paid for it too! You can tell people's agendas by the nature of their words. It doesn't matter how many times a subjective statement is repeated, it doesn't make it true, it's like he's trying to pound it into everyone's heads. Say something with enough conviction and people will believe it. Throw in a few swear words and it appeals to the masses, and shows you're not some uptight corporate.

And I haven't got time to get into the whole "transparent" thing...I'm off to Audio Show Delux.... 🤣

 

[DougK1]

It's amusing how audiophiles look down at, and use "YouTuber" as a derogatory term when their "beliefs" are being challenged, but will happily share videos of subjective toss from self proclaimed "reviewers" that are in line with them ....

I don't do YouTube for anything to do with hifi, except if it's an instructional video, like setting up my turntable up from scratch as the boxed instructions were as good as useless. YouTube is great is great for everything except hifi opinions, you can never be certain if the reviewer is in receipt of some kind payola somewhere in the chain.

 

[Witterings]

Many are only a level above "influencers", who are a group of people I utterly despise, as they're just people who get paid or get free stuff for making a video about something. It's worse than product placement in movies. Some people stir the **** on social media via the written word, but nobody takes notice of that, so they take to video, as it's quick, cheap, and easy to spread your agenda - and they can get paid for it too! You can tell people's agendas by the nature of their words. It doesn't matter how many times a subjective statement is repeated, it doesn't make it true, it's like he's trying to pound it into everyone's heads. Say something with enough conviction and people will believe it. Throw in a few swear words and it appeals to the masses, and shows you're not some uptight corporate.

And I haven't got time to get into the whole "transparent" thing...I'm off to Audio Show Delux.... 🤣

And the peoblem is, there's always someone out there that's stupid enough to believe the garbage they spout.

 

[Dave_]

And the peoblem is, there's always someone out there that's stupid enough to believe the garbage they spout.

The same could be said of every hifi dealer/salesperson.

I've never met one who's been upfront or transparent about how much profit/commission they're earning from any given component incidentally....

 

[RTHerringbone]

YouTube has the same highs and lows of any form of media. There's the same tribalism everywhere and it without doubt has a lot of content creators who know how to get the clicks (therefore revenue), and so will put out anything that they think will attract attention.

This forum is the same. There are vocal people forcing an opinion about quality through the lens of graphs and "science", but without much sign of actual musical appreciation or enjoyment. There are vocal people who are strongly into vinyl and have kit and a collection that represents a multi-year bond with their music; that is a proper connection that you can't measure. Then there's a group who dip toes in multiple formats, enjoy their music, and don't get too bothered by the racket and just enjoy watching the playground "banter".

I think the best solution is to listen to what you want and pay little to no attention to anyone else. Enjoy music, build your setup, educate yourselves by reading about all platforms and technologies, but Jesus don't be a weird tribal keyboard warrior getting all het up about something that's entirely pointless. Touch grass, as they say.

 

[Dave_]

I don't do YouTube for anything to do with hifi, except if it's an instructional video, like setting up my turntable up from scratch as the boxed instructions were as good as useless. YouTube is great is great for everything except hifi opinions, you can never be certain if the reviewer is in receipt of some kind payola somewhere in the chain.

YouTube is mostly entertainment as far as I'm concerned. Though it can be educational.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy and not to mention the complete lack of self awareness of many a audiophile...

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

haha, I'm glad guys like this are on YouTube. They wind audiophiles up no end and educate the masses.

Do you think the quantity of people who watch things like this genuinely deserve to be described as 'the masses'? Not sure I do.

This is not aimed at you btw, but the thread feels it's starting to amble in the direction of getting personal again - should it do so the next lock will be permanent.

 

[Jasonovich]

Nope. He's just someone else with an opinion.

I saw his YT vid on headphones measuring wrong.
I was going to post it then I thought WTF why am giving this guy the platform?
It seems his whole Modus Operanti is to 'prove' everything wrong.
Only one thing certain in life is eating beans and farting.

 

[Messiah]

Only one thing certain in life is eating beans and farting.

Ah, but you have forgot the certainty that a first attempt at inserting a USB A device is always the wrong way.

Or is that just me....😂

 

[Jasonovich]

Many are only a level above "influencers", who are a group of people I utterly despise, as they're just people who get paid or get free stuff for making a video about something. It's worse than product placement in movies. Some people stir the **** on social media via the written word, but nobody takes notice of that, so they take to video, as it's quick, cheap, and easy to spread your agenda - and they can get paid for it too! You can tell people's agendas by the nature of their words. It doesn't matter how many times a subjective statement is repeated, it doesn't make it true, it's like he's trying to pound it into everyone's heads. Say something with enough conviction and people will believe it. Throw in a few swear words and it appeals to the masses, and shows you're not some uptight corporate.

And I haven't got time to get into the whole "transparent" thing...I'm off to Audio Show Delux.... 🤣

It seems genuine engineers who make a decent living avoid bringing attention to themselves, except for this guy and you ask, are his credentials in order?
Maybe he operated on a low level, fetching tea and biscuits for his boss 😉

You're slacking slaprock, two sugars in mine.....

 

[Jasonovich]

Ah, but you have forgot the certainty that a first attempt at inserting a USB A device is always the wrong way.

Or is that just me....😂

I do it all the time!
So glad they've gave us USB C 🙂

 

[Jasonovich]

I don't do YouTube for anything to do with hifi, except if it's an instructional video, like setting up my turntable up from scratch as the boxed instructions were as good as useless. YouTube is great is great for everything except hifi opinions, you can never be certain if the reviewer is in receipt of some kind payola somewhere in the chain.

Youtube is like liquesce all sorts. Got all my DIY skills watching YT. Plumbing, carpentry, cementing marble flooring in the bathroom. 🙂

Did all that but I'll stick to my accounting job, much easier 🤣

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Do you think the quantity of people who watch things like this genuinely deserve to be described as 'the masses'? Not sure I do.

This is not aimed at you btw, but the thread feels it's starting to amble in the direction of getting personal again - should it do so the next lock will be permanent.

I would say "the masses" is a good catch-all description. You know what I mean, surely?

 

[ToppingSMSL]

It seems genuine engineers who make a decent living avoid bringing attention to themselves, except for this guy and you ask, are his credentials in order?
Maybe he operated on a low level, fetching tea and biscuits for his boss 😉

You're slacking slaprock, two sugars in mine.....

I think it's a bit unfair to attack this guy again mate. He has his own delivery style. He feels strongly about this topic. And he is an audio engineer so he does have qualifications. Attack the points he makes by all means but try not to attack him purely because of his delivery style on YouTube.

 

[Jasonovich]

I think it's a bit unfair to attack this guy again mate. He has his own delivery style. He feels strongly about this topic. And he is an audio engineer so he does have qualifications. Attack the points he makes by all means but try not to attack him purely because of his delivery style on YouTube.

Fair point, it was in jest. There's the person and there's the something he's trying to personify.
It's the something I'm making fun off, not the person. I really don't know him but the people who do are better placed.

 

[Witterings]

Only one thing certain in life is eating beans and farting.

Unfortunately, you need to add taxes and death to that 🤣

 

[Covenanter]

Something I'm getting a feeling towards more and more from the naysayers .... they don't seem to have tried or have any real exerience of more expensive DAC's nor done any extensive testing themslves.

There seems to be a lot of quite strong opinion coming from people who have zero experience and are suggesting they have a greater insight and knowledge than people who have actually tried and experienced something.

I'm a sceptic that cables will make any difference but I don't go into or start "cable threads" with a strong opnion telling people that may have tried several different ones and believe there's a difference in sound that they'e comletely wrong when I haven't done any real comparisons myself ..... I'm not fit to judge something I don't have personal experience of.

I'd love to hear from the disbelievers which DAC's you've tested extensively and by that I don't mean a demo in a music shop .... I mean having a home trial for at least 3 days and able to do instant A/B testing for at least 4 / 5 hours.
Pray also share how you volume matched them, how you were able to instantly switch from one to another and what your music source is and how you were able to get it across 2 units at the same time.

In summary though


I looked up that DAC, correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like it plugs into a computer to provide an external DAC rather than using your computers onboard one.
I assume you've done that as you perceive it as giving better sound quality than the computers internal DAC which probably cost pence.
If I'm right, kind of suggests you think more expensive DAC's do provide better quality and if so why should the ceiling of improvement be at the £89 it's for sale on Amazon at?

In summary I don't think one side is going to convince the other, especially if one side has experience of something and the opposing side that doesn't is saying they're wrong😕.

In the meantime, following my 2 year crusade to be totally happy with my system, I'll continue to enjoy my recently found musical nirvana and hope everyone else is enjoying theirs as much as I am mine 😀😀.

Listening is, I agree, the only way to judge any hifi component. However, A/B testing is susceptible to human foibles unless it is double blind. This is why all scientific tests are carried out double blind. You can't trust human perceptions!

One of the key issues is "expectation bias". If you expect an outcome you are more likely to report that outcome. None of us can avoid this. We have surely all experienced a time when you never see some event then it appears in the news and you see it all the time. This is why medical trials are double blind. If a patient knows they are getting a new medication they are more likely to report that it works! Even then, in most trials, about 25% of those given a placebo, usually a sugar pill, report that it improves symptoms.

Years ago during a similar debate on here the then editor of What Hi FI said they would never take part in a double blind test. I wonder why! 🙂