The Apex Club

[michael hoy]

Looking good Draenor.

Might have problems with the lamp and the white ornament interdering with the sound waves with the YPAO.

The sub will make a big difference, blends in with the A40's and A10 perfectly.

 

[RickyDeg]

Look what a gorgeous system! Thank you for posing these photos draenor!

There definitely is alot missing with no sub, and the AW12 complements the system really well, aesthetically anyway, but I'm certain the BK will do a good job. With the sub properly placed and calibrated best as can be the sound of the entire system grows considerably. A 5.0 home cinema without sub is like love without kisses or a hot summer without ice cream

BTW, I'm sure there's a reason for it but have you considered centering your a/v cabinet with the projector screen? As it looks in the photo it's pushed towards the left side. I would think you might achieve a somewhat more evenly placed front sound aligned with the picture if it was centered in the middle? Also, I really would recommend some kind of high quality isolation feet underneath the A40 center (hard to see if you have it already). I just tested my A40 recenly with Nordost Pulsar Points and Soundcare Superspikes which added a pleasing sense of lightness and 'air' to the sound. It will also lift it up slightly higher to aid the sound bouncing off your a/v cabinet. This is especially important if you cannot place it aligned with the edge. Highly recommended tweak!

 

[draenor]

Thanks for the compliments, I do agree the system is very aesthetically pleasing 8)

Due to doorways front and back the system cannot be centered unless getting a screen and sofa half the size; a direction I'm not looking to take, haha. I will however consider trying out new feet to the A40, nice tip

My initial reaction to the speakers though was, meh. And I was quite puzzled as it didn't at all match my previous experience. Turns out changing the output from stereo to 5.1 in my pc sound settings brought a massive difference to sound quality. Lesson learned!

 

[RickyDeg]

:wave: Hope everyone is doing well? My rather lengthy and thorough personal review of my new NuForce AVP-18 and MCH-300SEC7 (with Apex) is online now if you care to check it out below:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/nuforce-avp-18-and-mch-300sec7-with-apex-personal-review

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Just about to watch "Star Trek Into Darkness" and "Oblivion" blu-ray's tonight on Apex and NuForce - SUPER EXCITED! Last night I watched a movie I love to hate, "Prometheus", and was floored by the amazing reproduction of the soundtrack. Just jaw-droppingly good!

Hi RickyDeg

I watched Oblivion last week (so,so story, great picture and sound quality) and most of Star Trek Into Darkness today (good story, excellent picture and sound quality). Prometheus - excellent picture but I found the audio quality to be soft and weak. The story - yawn and with a poor and seemingly rushed ending.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hey Rick! :wave: I agree with you completely on "Oblivion" and "Star Trek Into Darkness". Glad you've seen them too. And I'm telling you - Apex truly shine on movie soundtracks in a way now that is a little difficult to describe. My NuForce kit is real good. I will post an in-depth personal review soon, in case you care to read some. I'm installing acoustic room treatments soon! Can't wait!

In terms of "Prometheus" I'll hold back my opinions of the story because I could go on all day, haha (let's just say Mr Scott has some serious redeeming to do after this movie haha). I find the visuals and audiomix rather amazing though, it was with Denon/Audyssey and even more so now with the NuForce kit. The mix is wonderfully dynamic and filled with so much detail and atmosphere throughout it staggers me. It has actually become my reference disc lately. You are not the only one who have said the audio is soft and weak, but I'm not sure how that could be...? We need to demo each others systems with that disc! HA!

Hi RickyDeg

I am very disappointed with the audio mix of Prometheus. Soft and weak. I have also noticed this with some other Fox releases such as The A-Team and Predators whereas with Max Payne, Hitman and AVP Requiem (i would rather watch this then Prometheus) are gutsy and powerful

On the other hand i've found the sound on some releases from Universal such as Contraband, Fast and Furious 5 and Battleship to be almost flat and bright whereas Hulk (2008) , 9 and Hanna are gutsy and powerful

Movie studios - Old School style audio mixes please ray:

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

So Ricky, your not missing the Denon/Audyssey combo then

Hi Michael hoy

I wonder what Chris Kyriakakis will make of RickyDeg not using Audyssey

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

HAHA! You crack me up! I had to respond to this!

Chris Kyriakakis is no longer friends with me on Facebook. There's your answer. :rofl:

Hi RickyDeg

Chris Kyriakakis is no longer friends with you on Facebook probably because there is a Nu Force in town

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[whathero]

:?

I've always liked this one 's pretty good ! :clap:

 

[RickyDeg]

Fellow club members, I'm about to reveal something I didn't think I would; I'm EQ-liberated!

:cheer:

Some of you may have read my personal review elsewhere of my newly accuired a/v separates from NuForce and how much I love them driving Apex. Well, contrary to things mentioned in the review (and things I've said in the past) I no longer care for eqalization to make Apex bloom. In fact I'm hearing them in a new way right now. After being pleased and impressed with the AutoEQ in the AVP-18 processor I switched to 'direct/bypass' by accident this weekend and could hardly believe my ears. A bit of a revelation after having been such a fan of Audyssey for many years.

I know for many a/v fans this isn't a revelation but I have to mention I personally was never convinced running 'direct/bypass' mode with any receiver in the past and have therefor been dependant on equalizers to bring out that engrossing sound I was looking for (Audyssey-equipped machines in particular). When I owned my Denon receiver it sounded downright awful without Audyssey and Dynamic EQ. To me the sound was just unlistenable. I had the exact same experience testing Onkyo, also with Audyssey, as if these receivers were constructed with Audyssey in mind and you weren’t really supposed to switch it off. Perhaps that was because those receivers simply relied on EQ in order to sound good? And thus I foolishly assumed bypassing wouldn’t impress me with NuForce either. But to my surprise this have became a game changer. I guess the purity of the unaltered signal fed to the amplifier really makes Apex sing and sound 'the way they are meant to'. And I also guess that my speaker placement and my room isn't as much of a disaster as I thought.

Everything I raved about with NuForce AutoEQ is bettered in every sense in 'direct/bypass' mode and the slight reservations I had suddenly vanished. It's almost as if I got myself a new set of ears. The sound has broken free from the speaker cabinets more so than before – they now breathe ‘air’ and spatiality is unmistakably more natural. The ease of which everything is projected throughout the soundstage is uncanny. My A40 center projects vocals more naturally, as if the actors are in the room. The AW-12 subwoofers also appear somewhat liberated from the restraining EQ and now present more slam and depth (there is occational boominess with no EQ though, as to be expected, but I will tame that with bass traps soon). The dynamics and impact of the entire Apex system have grown substantially, as if the EQ (as good as it is) was holding back the true fidelity and refinement of the signal fed to the amplifier, at least to some degree. I would not have thought that had I never hit the 'direct/bypass' button on the remote! This awakening will keep me going down the route of 'purity'.

This has been such an interesting revelation I just had to share it!

Acoustic room treatment panels next!

Cheers all! :cheers:

 

[michael hoy]

Fellow club members, I'm about to reveal something I didn't think I would; I'm EQ-liberated!

:cheer:

Dare i say it...

Told you so :O

On a serious note, glad you are enjoying your new system.

 

[RickyDeg]

HA! I knew you'd say that! And you were right in doing so, Michael

It's curious how none of the other solutions I tested over the last 2 years (and boy have there been many) sounded convincing at all in 'direct/bypass' mode. And this with the same speakers, in the same room! Some didn't convince me with EQ either though, unless it was Audyssey of course. But now with NuForce it's a TOTALLY different deal. Watched two animated favorites on Blu-ray last night - "How To Train Your Dragon" and "Kung Fu Panda" - the viceral dynamics through Apex is just unreal now. Don't get me wrong, Denon and Audyssey were terrific for me, but not like this. It's like I've unlocked Apex true potential. LFE is slightly overpowering without EQ of course but bass traps will take care of that.

I'm even keen on trying the Oppo BDP-105 as a preamp connected directly to the NuForce amplifier in order to eliminate the processor completely for shortest possible signal path. Others have done that with great results. Were you aware of this? With no need for EQ and lots of inputs the processor only serves as a volume control with speaker management - something Oppo does as well.

Hope you are enjoying your systems too, Michael! (gosh, you have so many!)

:cheers:

 

[michael hoy]

Hi ricky,

Having a bad time with my ears at the moment (7 weeks now).

Besides that I am waiting to revamp the living room and move things around, the HiFi is used in the loft but his full at the moment with stair parts for the hallway.

Just ordered a new car as well so no money to spend on system at the moment.

Let me know how you get on with the OPPO as a pre amp.

 

[djolord]

Finally ordered my Apex babies today. For now only getting 3xA10's for front soundstage and the new radius 90 for rears and sticking with my B&W ASW300 sub (it's small but enough as I have a small room). Pics and reviews to come shortly

 

[michael hoy]

Welcome to the club djolord.

Any reason not to have the A40 for your centre.

 

[Chord_Freak]

Hi guys, I've not been on here for a while but I'm still enjoying the Apex speakers! I have just added a DSpeaker Antimode to tame a huge peak at 40hz on the sub and it has done an amazing job. For anyone who has boomy / flabby, over-bearing bass from the Apex sub, get one of these:

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

Fairly cheap and worked wonders in my less than ideal room!

 

[ellisdj]

Fellow club members, I'm about to reveal something I didn't think I would; I'm EQ-liberated!

:cheer:

Some of you may have read my personal review elsewhere of my newly accuired a/v separates from NuForce and how much I love them driving Apex. Well, contrary to things mentioned in the review (and things I've said in the past) I no longer care for eqalization to make Apex bloom. In fact I'm hearing them in a new way right now. After being pleased and impressed with the AutoEQ in the AVP-18 processor I switched to 'direct/bypass' by accident this weekend and could hardly believe my ears. A bit of a revelation after having been such a fan of Audyssey for many years.

I know for many a/v fans this isn't a revelation but I have to mention I personally was never convinced running 'direct/bypass' mode with any receiver in the past and have therefor been dependant on equalizers to bring out that engrossing sound I was looking for (Audyssey-equipped machines in particular). When I owned my Denon receiver it sounded downright awful without Audyssey and Dynamic EQ. To me the sound was just unlistenable. I had the exact same experience testing Onkyo, also with Audyssey, as if these receivers were constructed with Audyssey in mind and you weren’t really supposed to switch it off. Perhaps that was because those receivers simply relied on EQ in order to sound good? And thus I foolishly assumed bypassing wouldn’t impress me with NuForce either. But to my surprise this have became a game changer. I guess the purity of the unaltered signal fed to the amplifier really makes Apex sing and sound 'the way they are meant to'. And I also guess that my speaker placement and my room isn't as much of a disaster as I thought.

Everything I raved about with NuForce AutoEQ is bettered in every sense in 'direct/bypass' mode and the slight reservations I had suddenly vanished. It's almost as if I got myself a new set of ears. The sound has broken free from the speaker cabinets more so than before – they now breathe ‘air’ and spatiality is unmistakably more natural. The ease of which everything is projected throughout the soundstage is uncanny. My A40 center projects vocals more naturally, as if the actors are in the room. The AW-12 subwoofers also appear somewhat liberated from the restraining EQ and now present more slam and depth (there is occational boominess with no EQ though, as to be expected, but I will tame that with bass traps soon). The dynamics and impact of the entire Apex system have grown substantially, as if the EQ (as good as it is) was holding back the true fidelity and refinement of the signal fed to the amplifier, at least to some degree. I would not have thought that had I never hit the 'direct/bypass' button on the remote! This awakening will keep me going down the route of 'purity'.

This has been such an interesting revelation I just had to share it!

Acoustic room treatment panels next!

Cheers all! :cheers:

This is not surprising at all - I dont want to say I told you so but I told you so. - the eq system used in the Nuforce appears a basic parametric which are generally not very good.

However dont expect some bass trapping to sort your bass boom out unless you are prepared to go the whole hog - thats treatment in every corner in the room - so imagine in your room where one wall / ceiling / floor meets another thats a corner - I cant imagine you doing this but maybe you will.

Bass trapping will help, acoustic other treatment will be your best upgrade yet for your apex but still look at eq for your subs as you will likely still need it. 250hz and down

 

[RickyDeg]

This is not surprising at all - I dont want to say I told you so but I told you so. - the eq system used in the Nuforce appears a basic parametric which are generally not very good.

However dont expect some bass trapping to sort your bass boom out unless you are prepared to go the whole hog - thats treatment in every corner in the room - so imagine in your room where one wall / ceiling / floor meets another thats a corner - I cant imagine you doing this but maybe you will.

Bass trapping will help, acoustic other treatment will be your best upgrade yet for your apex but still look at eq for your subs as you will likely still need it. 250hz and down

It's ok to say "I told you so", I'm sure you'd love that! HA! Someone else already did and I welcomed it.

All kidding aside, bypassing with NuForce reminds me of the transparency and soundstage spatiality I achieved with the Lexicon DC-1 processor and Musical Fidelity HT600 amp many many years ago, apart from the fact that now of course we've got lossless formats that didn't exist back then. The EQ in the NuForce did infact do an excellent job overall, and with their up-coming professional microphone I'm certain that measuring will become even more accurate. This won't change the paratetric EQ quality though of course. In many ways the EQ was better than Audyssey in fact, but like I said it's not until I bypassed it that the last bits fell into place - the speakers truly 'breath' now. I can clearly hear that EQ'ing hold the speakers back in some respects. I'd like to repeat though, that when I bypassed the EQ on the Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer and Anthem receivers it did NOT sound anywhere close to this - at all - it was unlistenable to me on those units. Might simply be because NuForce is in a different league.

It's nice now though to have moved away from room EQ. Like you said though, I still feel the sub would benefit from EQ'ing AND bass traps. The slight bass boom I experience only with the deepest of rumbles in soundtrack LFE's - its very mild. My acoustic consultant was here last week to excecute measurements with a microphone and test-discs (was very interesting, even if I don't get graphs and such at all, they tell me nothing, which is why I rely on him). I only have two corners in my listening room as it's an open architecture type apartment and the left side cannot accomodate any treatment whatsoever. The corner of my front subwoofer is the location in which he strongly suggested placing bass traps - from floor to ceiling. So that's what we'll start off with.

 

[tris101]

Hi guys,

I'm new around here so hello to you all:wave:

I have x6 a10's for left right, side and rear surrounds and the A40 for the centre partnered to Yamaha 3010 amp. My question is which subs should I be looking at? I have around £1000 max my room is quite large are 13 foot by 30 foot it is brick and plaster walls and concrete floor. I will be using the sub for movies and music, I normally prefer sealed subs to ported designs. I have a young child and dog so I need a grill which kind of rules out the aw-12.

I welcome suggestions...

 

[fayeanddavid]

Hi guys,

I'm new around here so hello to you all:wave:

I have x6 a10's for left right, side and rear surrounds and the A40 for the centre partnered to Yamaha 3010 amp. My question is which subs should I be looking at? I have around £1000 max my room is quite large are 13 foot by 30 foot it is brick and plaster walls and concrete floor. I will be using the sub for movies and music, I normally prefer sealed subs to ported designs. I have a young child and dog so I need a grill which kind of rules out the aw-12.

I welcome suggestions...

Look at the BK range of subwoofers, the XLLS 400 is a sealed design and the Monolith is a ported design, both are fantastic subs at around £450 -£550, with finishes that you can select, (painted or veneer)

We have the Monolith and chose down firing so no grilles to worry of.

I have recently change to Apex A40s across the front, fantastic speaker and the integration with my Monolith sub is excellent (crossed over at 100Hz and sounds really good)

 

[michael hoy]

I have recently change to Apex A40s across the front, fantastic speaker and the integration with my Monolith sub is excellent (crossed over at 100Hz and sounds really good)

How have you mounted the A40's for front left and right.

 

[fayeanddavid]

I have recently change to Apex A40s across the front, fantastic speaker and the integration with my Monolith sub is excellent (crossed over at 100Hz and sounds really good)

How have you mounted the A40's for front left and right.

I had a chat with MA on this, and they recommend either horizontal or vertical for the A40s (they see no issue either way)

So I have the centre horizontal under the tv, wall mounted and angled up slightly, and the L&R are mounted vertically, approx 2.2m apart with the centre of the L&R speakers approx 600mm higher than the horizontal speaker (if that makes sense??)

Sound stage is enormous (I would have liked them slightly wider but compromises and all that) and the energy these speakers produce is quite special

The sub is crossed over at 100Hz and the integration is quite seamless.

Very very pleased.

 

[michael hoy]

How have you mounted the A40's for front left and right.

I had a chat with MA on this, and they recommend either horizontal or vertical for the A40s (they see no issue either way)

So I have the centre horizontal under the tv, wall mounted and angled up slightly, and the L&R are mounted vertically, approx 2.2m apart with the centre of the L&R speakers approx 600mm higher than the horizontal speaker (if that makes sense??)

Sound stage is enormous (I would have liked them slightly wider but compromises and all that) and the energy these speakers produce is quite special

The sub is crossed over at 100Hz and the integration is quite seamless.

Very very pleased.

Thanks for the reply, considered 3 A40's myself but will need to wait while we revamp the room.

 

[ellisdj]

In perfect conditions the monolith will give you perfect bass.

I doubt you will have perfect conditions in your room but in the right hands the monolith will be awesome no question.

However The owner of BK I think his name is Tony suggested to me the Monolith if more for films and the XLS400 if more for Music.

I have managed to get the XLS400 to do things people wouldn't realise possible from one / a sub in terms of bass clarity, control and impact. Its a great sub for the money and a great sub full stop. A lot of the lower registers the XLS400 puts out are lost in my listening room I get down to 30-35hz and then its dropping off (factoring in I have a hard knee house curve)

Most people probably assume their getting deeper bass than that because they got a lot of rumble but they would probably be horrified to learn that is probably a big peak at 50-60hz their hearing that's all.

If you think you can correctly place and control the monolith then it will no doubt be an awesome purchase. If you have only a corner to place it in then I would get a sealed box sub such as the XLS400 - you will not be dissapointed.

The only alternative I would look at above it is this in my mind http://www.kreiselsound.com/subDXD12012.php
Thats where my money would go

 

[tris101]

Thanks... I have few options regarding location of the sub mainly along the long 30 foot wall but it will need to close to the wall.

I will look at some reviews of the BK subs.

 

[tris101]

Thanks... I have few options regarding location of the sub mainly along the long 30 foot wall but it will need to close to the wall.

I will look at some reviews of the BK subs.

 

[tris101]

Thanks I will take another look at the BK range of subwoofers. I see there is a lot of love for the Monolith.

Is the monolith, fast, fluid, punchy and deep? Some ported subs can be a little one noted and boomy.

I think £1k is as far as I can stretch the budget. Are there any other subs which are a good match with the apex speakers that I should short list?

Velodyne EQ-Max 12?
Monitor Audio RXW12?
Rel R328?
MJ ACOUSTICS REFERENCE 200?