The Apex Club

[ellisdj]

Glad I am hopefully helping you out. ....

In terms of the improved bass definition - I would put that down to a cleaner digital signal and better power supply in the nuforce compared to the denon - not the eq system one power supply per unit and not shared in the same noisey box. I am learning the extreme importance of this at the minute

 

[RickyDeg]

I'm always grateful for feedback, ellisdj, and keen to learn new things. You seem to know what you are talking about on certain topics so that's good and I appreciate it. For example, I can't wait to add room treatments very soon!

I think you are correct about the improved bass performance I am experiencing now with AW-12 and NuForce AVP-18 at the helm. It's likely got to do with a combination of several things though; dedicated and better power supplies, better DAC, meticulous volume control, better output stages and signal processing alongside the EQ, all combined. This seemingly simple processor has but one goal; pure performance over features, and it's easy to see (hear) where the effort have been made and it's paying off in my case. Antoher reason is probably that Audysseys Dynamic EQ, as excellent as it can be and as much as I was addicted to it, adds more 'oomph' to the low frequencies through it's EQ and active loudness, which this NuForce does not do and does not need to do. So at times, as great as the bass was with Denon and Audyssey it could momentarily come off a bit bloated. NuForce makes the subwoofers play in a more controlled, nuanced and agile manner, while still deep and powerful. Will be awesome to test AntiMode though and add the room treatments to further enhance things because there is room for improvement (when is there not room for improvement? hehe).

I too am learning (or being reminded of) the benefits of using a/v separates compared to integrated units, as I use to own a separates system years ago (Lexicon DC-1 processor + Musical Fidelity HT-600 amp). Also the flexibility is unmatched in a system like this. The Apex speakers certainly seem to make the most of the clean signal and raw power of the NuForce units, as their performance have risen several notches.

 

[djolord]

I'm seriously considering joining the Apex club, been reading this forum and have been inspired by the enthusiasm they've generated, they must be something real special! I had a short demo at SSAV with 3 A10's at the front and radius hd90 at the rear. I enjoyed very much what I heard but has anyone lived with such a system and what are their thoughts? I don't have room for an A40 so A10 centre will have to do.

Part of me thinks I'm mad changing my B&W 602's and 600 LCR, but due to downsizing I need to, but tbh from what I heard they actually sound like I'll be upgrading as the speed, imaging and detail sounded ideal for movies, much more so than my current setup. But I will also be watching a lot of TV through them, can people be honest and tell me what they're like for that. I dont wan something thats so revealing that it just reveals all the shortcomings and ruins the experience.

Thanks in advance

Sam.

 

[djolord]

I'm seriously considering joining the Apex club, been reading this forum and have been inspired by the enthusiasm they've generated, they must be something real special! I had a short demo at SSAV with 3 A10's at the front and radius hd90 at the rear. I enjoyed very much what I heard but has anyone lived with such a system and what are their thoughts? I don't have room for an A40 so A10 centre will have to do.

Part of me thinks I'm mad changing my B&W 602's and 600 LCR, but due to downsizing I need to, but tbh from what I heard they actually sound like I'll be upgrading as the speed, imaging and detail sounded ideal for movies, much more so than my current setup. But I will also be watching a lot of TV through them, can people be honest and tell me what they're like for that. I dont wan something thats so revealing that it just reveals all the shortcomings and ruins the experience.

Thanks in advance

Sam.

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey Sam :wave: Cool that we can hopefully welcome you to the club soon!

I'm thinking if you've followed this thread you know my personal views on the Apex system already. While there are definitely more capable systems out there, in the price range this has got to be one of the better sub/sat options available. I have no experience of your B&W's so I can't comment on those, but rest assured I have gone from big, expensive floorstanding speakers (JM Lab Electra) to sub/sat systems and with good electronics Apex can sound big, refined and detailed in their own right. They do deserve to play in unison though, meaning I do NOT recommend mixing A10's/A40's with any other line/brand of speakers. What subwoofer you choose may not be as important (unless aesthetics are important then the Apex AW12 match perfectly!). Some say the surroundchannels aren't as vital but to me that's VERY wrong! To achieve that awesome voice-matched wrap-around effect that multichannel content depends upon you need to have Apex models all-round, no question about it.

For traditional 2-channel stereo, while Apex are definitely capable, I'd say there are better options out there. I never play in stereo any longer myself, multichannel only. I have heard the A10's with AW12 in demos though and set up correctly they can sound fairly big and balanced in stereo too.

In terms of listening to audio from TV through Apex I don't think there is reason to worry. Although they require (and deserve) quality sourcematerial (and again - electronics) to shine the Apex won't embarass themsevles on lesser quality TV sound either. Don't expect miracles though. I've connect my satellite HDTV-box to my audiosystem and run all audio through it while watching TV and it's surprisingly good most of the time. This has a lot to do with how your electronics process the TV audiostream as well, so just keep that in mind. Not all solutions will sound the same. There are also DSP-trickery in some electronics you might want to experiment with while watching TV. Or not? Depends on your preference. Since Apex are quite transparent and honest though they can reveal weaknesses in lesser recordings, but I seldom feel that it takes away from my overall enjoyment. If you have HD-channels with Dolby Digital 5.1 (I watch a lot of Discovery and National Geographic in 5.1) it's terrific through Apex! But once again, audio from TV varies in quality so so much, so it all depends.

I see you've got the Pioneer SC-LX72 in your a/v set-up. Some people love the Pioneer+Apex combo! I on the other hand didn't have much luck when I tested the SC-LX83 and 85 at home not long ago, but that's just me. The combo didn't tickle my fancy. Simply a matter of preference, I believe.

 

[djolord]

Yeah I'm certain you're right about the surrounds. I was thinking of waiting for the new Radius' to use as surrounds and then upgrade. But then why spend £900 when you can just spend £600 and get it right first time. I agree that all-round uniformity is very important for av. In the demo I tried using a radius 180 as a centre and it completely let the side down. 2 channel performance doesn't matter to me at all, as I have my lovely ATC's for that but my B&W's sound tired and old compared to the Apex (probably because they are quite old, lol). I can't wait to change.

I was hooked to your receiver experiences, but I havent got as far as reading your post about the Nuforce. Could you give me a brief explanation of what improvements have been noticed over the good ol' Denon. I would consider changing my receiver if I feel there are improvements to be had once I get them home and run-in.

 

[RickyDeg]

Oh yes, you got your 2-channel rig all set, I see that now! :doh: Seems a fine one!

You're on the right track getting Apex all-round, so you do best in forgetting the mix with Radius.

Thanks for reading my receiver experiences, there's been quite a few (!). I haven't yet composed my personal review the NuForce gear as I want to allow a full break-in first and re-run the calibration and simply listen to more material I have stacked up. I'll probably post it in a separate thread as I probably won't be writing much about Apex in that one.

Please keep us posted and if you can take some pictures of your set-up!

 

[djolord]

Yeah really can't fault the 2-channel side of things, it sounds just perfect to me in my room. I did consider integrating the AV and 2-channel together but interestingly the pre-outs on the pioneer are utter bo*lox! The different between using the pre-outs into the rotel and just connecting the ATC's direct to pioneer is unbelievable, this is clearly an area which is used to save money as they probably assume 99% of people won't use them. But of course using the MDAC and Rotel is a dream. If people really want a good 2-channel system you should NEVER use a receiver to do it, trust me they will never compare to a dedicated 2-channel amp. Perhaps controversial, in fact I'd be interested to hear if people have contrary expereriences. Of course the SC-LX72 is hardly the best receiver money can buy. Anywayyyyy this is off-topic I think! But it's nice ranting to fellow nerds I mean connoisseurs 8).

Ah so the Nuforce is a relatively new purchase, make sure you post a link on here if you start a new thread. Do you know if they distribute in the UK?

 

[djolord]

I've always thought the reason behind the sub being much different is because of the amp and circuitry inside the sub. It delays the signal somewhat. I wouldn't change it personally because the time measured is a reflection of the delay and therefore is actually theoretically correct. This is part of the reason Pioneer employs phase control in the their machines.

 

[djolord]

Sorry this was meant to be in reply to a much earlier post!

 

[RickyDeg]

Fantastic sounding a/v solutions for music are a rare commodity, for sure. I think you're doing the right thing with two separate systems. I will say though that when I tested the integrated a/v amp Primare SPA22 HD (almost 2 years ago now - my review is in this thread) it was absolutely staggering with pure music, the best I've heard period in many many years in fact. No surprise though, as that brand is primarily a stereo hi-fi company. I would have loved living with that amp but sadly it wasn't quite up to the task for movies, not in my case anyway, although others have praised it for that as well. I just know what I prefer and sadly it didn't deliver in that respect. I could not have my cake and eat it too. When I ran the Pioneers with my Apex I didn't find music OR movies particularly appealing, sadly, while I am fully aware some people appreciate both. Our demands, our expectations, our point of reference and preference, not to mention surrounding circumstance, simply differ.

It's a good idea getting the Apex, letting them break-in with your Pioneer, experiment for a while and see what you think. Just take your time. Yes, my NuForce separates gear are just two and a half weeks, so still 'discovering' them. It seems NuForce are not that well-known in the UK (?), even though they been on the market for a while, which is ashame. Here in Sweden they are quite popular among enthusiasts and audiophiles alike. I believe the following company is the UK distributor: http://www.robytone.com/

Just about to watch "Star Trek Into Darkness" and "Oblivion" blu-ray's tonight on Apex and NuForce - SUPER EXCITED! Last night I watched a movie I love to hate, "Prometheus", and was floored by the amazing reproduction of the soundtrack. Just jaw-droppingly good!

 

[michael hoy]

So Ricky, your not missing the Denon/Audyssey combo then

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Just about to watch "Star Trek Into Darkness" and "Oblivion" blu-ray's tonight on Apex and NuForce - SUPER EXCITED! Last night I watched a movie I love to hate, "Prometheus", and was floored by the amazing reproduction of the soundtrack. Just jaw-droppingly good!

Hi RickyDeg

I watched Oblivion last week (so,so story, great picture and sound quality) and most of Star Trek Into Darkness today (good story, excellent picture and sound quality). Prometheus - excellent picture but I found the audio quality to be soft and weak. The story - yawn and with a poor and seemingly rushed ending.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

So Ricky, your not missing the Denon/Audyssey combo then

Hi Michael hoy

I wonder what Chris Kyriakakis will make of RickyDeg not using Audyssey

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[RickyDeg]

So Ricky, your not missing the Denon/Audyssey combo then

I'll answer that with a big fat NO!

Michael, can you give me some of your feedback on your Belkin PF50 mains conditioner? What improvements have you found?

 

[RickyDeg]

Just about to watch "Star Trek Into Darkness" and "Oblivion" blu-ray's tonight on Apex and NuForce - SUPER EXCITED! Last night I watched a movie I love to hate, "Prometheus", and was floored by the amazing reproduction of the soundtrack. Just jaw-droppingly good!

Hi RickyDeg

I watched Oblivion last week (so,so story, great picture and sound quality) and most of Star Trek Into Darkness today (good story, excellent picture and sound quality). Prometheus - excellent picture but I found the audio quality to be soft and weak. The story - yawn and with a poor and seemingly rushed ending.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hey Rick! :wave: I agree with you completely on "Oblivion" and "Star Trek Into Darkness". Glad you've seen them too. And I'm telling you - Apex truly shine on movie soundtracks in a way now that is a little difficult to describe. My NuForce kit is real good. I will post an in-depth personal review soon, in case you care to read some. I'm installing acoustic room treatments soon! Can't wait!

In terms of "Prometheus" I'll hold back my opinions of the story because I could go on all day, haha (let's just say Mr Scott has some serious redeeming to do after this movie haha). I find the visuals and audiomix rather amazing though, it was with Denon/Audyssey and even more so now with the NuForce kit. The mix is wonderfully dynamic and filled with so much detail and atmosphere throughout it staggers me. It has actually become my reference disc lately. You are not the only one who have said the audio is soft and weak, but I'm not sure how that could be...? We need to demo each others systems with that disc! HA!

 

[RickyDeg]

So Ricky, your not missing the Denon/Audyssey combo then

Hi Michael hoy

I wonder what Chris Kyriakakis will make of RickyDeg not using Audyssey

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

HAHA! You crack me up! I had to respond to this!

Chris Kyriakakis is no longer friends with me on Facebook. There's your answer. :rofl:

 

[djolord]

Yes, I have your dislike for Pioneers firmly lodged into my mind! Making me slightly nervous I must say, but I'm hoping my experience is going to be more positive, as there are some people on here (I think Michael_hoy) who have had good experience with LX72. Personally I never use the MCACC on the Pioneer, I find it produces some quite frankly bizzare eq curves and I always turn it off. I think the best thing about the Pioneer is the standing wave control and the phase control which really helps tighen up the bass. Also I like the dialogue enhancement option, it's terribly technically incorrect I know, but personally I like a massive soundstage for dialogue!

I will post pictures and in-depth reviews when all running properly. Out of interest could you or anyone here say how the Apex stacks up against an MK M7/M5 type setup? I can't ignore the fact that the PSB mini's also are at a similar price, I wonder how they compare.....

 

[ellisdj]

[/quote]

. I'm installing acoustic room treatments soon! Can't wait!

[/quote]

After that you will never listen to stereo in a surroundmode ever again - you will hear why that sounds very wrong soon enough

To the chap above - ignore how the curve with mccac looks - if you measured your room response you would see that its trying to correct it to a flat curve - if thats what you want

In terms of standiung wave - its actually very primitive and only corrects to 60hz so that hardly any of the bass region.

Invest in an anitmode it will improve the bass much better than mccac can, thats mccac's biggest weakness

 

[RickyDeg]

After that you will never listen to stereo in a surroundmode ever again - you will hear why that sounds very wrong soon enough

Well, I'm hoping. But the room itself is also a problem for the acoustic treatment because I have no wall on the left side of the speakers (it's an open architecture type apartment). This means I can only place panels on the front wall, right wall, right front corner and in the ceiling. That's it. Nothing to the left side whatsoever. That's apparently a challenge. An acoustic consultant have already seen photos and drawings of my listeningroom and is stopping by next week to measure. Apparently he have treated other rooms that also housed Apex speakers so that bodes well I think!

 

[ellisdj]

I would have thought the space is even though not ideal is combatible as long as there is some absorption when it gets to the first hard surface.

You will have differing reverb times for Front L and R but you have that now so you will be used to hearing that. You might find you get different sounding side imaging down the left to the right or maybe the other way around in stereo.

Either way listening in stereo is awesome - what can be achieved in stereo in the right envinronment - well it shocked me the first time I heard it - i dont mean in my home. Turn eq off except for the bass and have a good listen.

The fact your getting a pro in, you would expect the best from what you've got.

Start a new thread on the project - I am very keen to see how and what he does for you - what panels he uses where, thicknesses dimensions and then of course your thoughts.

I will eat my hat if your not blown away

 

[RickyDeg]

I will eat my hat if your not blown away

:rofl: Just for that I'll be tempted to say "I'm NOT blown away" even if I will be... haha. You are likely right though. My placement of the front left/right A10's is a compromise however, one I cannot change for the time being, as they are placed quite low ontop the a/v cabinet and not very far apart from one another. They do create a 'perfect' triangle to the seatingpositon, so that's good at least.

The acoustic consultant was careful not to promise things this early on (which I apprecitate as he seems legit and serious) but he hinted at greatness that others with even trickier rooms than mine have experienced. He mentioned improvements in soundstage, focus, low-frequency control. Bascially less "distortion" as less of the room will play a part in the speakers reproduction of audio. Makes perfect sense. His professional measuring equipment and seeing how my speakers are placed will give him the answers to what material of the panels is to be used, what shape/size and where to best place them. So called "bass traps" were a must, he claimed, and I have no reason not to believe him. Will be fun to see how I experinece the AW12 with "bass traps". I will start a new thread soon! Good idea! And I will make one with the NuForce units also... geesh... so much to do, so little time.

HAPPY WEEKEND! CHEERS! :cheers:

 

[ellisdj]

bass traps are what its all about - but they are big - oh did I say big and they need to go in ideally all corners and there are more corners in a room than you first think.

Great video for you to watch - whe I see pictures after your project I expect them to look like this room.

Dont be put off by the geekiness of this guy / quality of the video - he knows his stuff!!

http://realtraps.com/video_setup.htm

 

[RickyDeg]

Thanks for that terrific video ellisdj - fascinating and informative! He would be a geek! Then, in a way, so are we! HA! I'd love to experience sound in that environment. Looks like hell though, but who cares? Well, I'd never make my current listeningroom look like that since it's a livingroom as well, but if I'd have the option of a dedicated room... then we're talking! So, no, I reckon the up-coming pictures you'll see of my room with acoustic treatment will not be like that! HA! I checked out some of the basstraps that the consultant works with and some are quite discrete I have to say. Can't wait! Here is one manufacturer: http://www.sofsci.com/ I also emailed with a former client of the same consultant and he was taken by the improvements, paricularly soundstage and bass depth and control. He too had an open architecture type listeningroom with limited options, although much bigger speakers than me.

BTW, watched "The Hobbit" last night and AW12 have never sounded this detailed or bonecrushing! What is it about separates!

 

[draenor]

It's been long overdue, but I promised you guys some pictures, and I hate not to deliver

The sound so far is great, but I'm only monday getting the sub. Anticipation is killing me as there's a huge deal of the sound missing yet.

Sound & picture is solely hdmi from a computer. Cables are not more than ~8m so 1.6mm^2 cabling are used.