The Apex Club

[RickyDeg]

-0.0db??? My volume never really goes past -25.0 when watching Blu ray and that's with dynamic volume set to light, sometimes medium. I'd love to experience a Blu ray at "Referance level"

Gosh :O I'm not sure I would. My receivers volume knob never goes below -32db, and in my room that's certainly loud enough. To me personally I enjoy a good balance in volume, I don't like my ears being bombarted by insane volume levels, just ain't enjoyable for me.

But that's where Audyssey's brilliant Dynamic EQ comes in! 😉

 

[atkins4725]

If it wasn't for dynamic volume, I don't think the wife would allow any films, lol.

I've a question regarding subwoofer cable that I hope u can help with?

When I was buyin the cable for the sub I was advised from one of the local dealers that Chord didn't manufacture dedicated sub cables which I thought to be incorrect?? Anyways, i was sold the chord prodac. Just browsing the Chord website and I see they do infact have separate sub cables???

Am I missing out on anything not having a cable made for it's specific job or is the Chord Prodac ok???

 

[RickyDeg]

Dynamic Volume is handy for certain situations and material but for me it's Dynamic EQ in Audyssey that makes all the difference. Every time I've tried a non-Audyssey equipped receiver (Pioneer, Anthem, Primare, Yamaha) that is the function I find myself instantly missing. Seems a rather unique function not offered by other solutions? Surround presence, detail projection, immersion and overall balance regardless of volume is truly engaging on Apex with Dynamic EQ. I find that switching it off makes the soundstage collapse and take on a flat and thin character; quite bizarre in comparison. One could argue that a quality machine sound be able to sound terrific without this kind of loudness processing, but I donno what it is - seems to me that Audyssey equipped machines are constructed to be used with Dynamic EQ engaged and not the other way round. For music material it might be a different story depending on playback mode. As always though, it's an issue of preference.

 

[greedy]

Maybe, that situation with volume is because ,i playing movies from my Dune media player.That machine play blu-ray.iso files downloaded from torrents.Blu-ray.iso is a copy of original blu-ray disc on the hard drive.Sound and video quality is the same as original disc.Dialog in the movie becomes very clear when i turn about 27-30db.Is it normal?Usually i watch movies about -20-27db.Dynamic volume set to: day

 

[michael hoy]

Maybe, that situation with volume is because ,i playing movies from my Dune media player.That machine play blu-ray.iso files downloaded from torrents.Blu-ray.iso is a copy of original blu-ray disc on the hard drive.Sound and video quality is the same as original disc.Dialog in the movie becomes very clear when i turn about 27-30db.Is it normal?Usually i watch movies about -20-27db.Dynamic volume set to: day

I would not worry too much about the volume, more worryingly, are you admitting to pirated films on this forum.

 

[greedy]

michael>we havent very big choice of blu-ray discs in Lithuania...I buy blu-rays also.. 🙂

 

[ric71]

Happy New Year guys!!!

@ Ricky. Hope you had a great Christmas.

When you do get a processor/ receiver with XT32 it will EQ your subs much much better than MultiEQ XT as you prob already know. If you go down the pro route with XT32 even better. It ain't cheap but def worth it even with the Apex.

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey there ric71 :wave:

Great to hear from you! All the best for the New Year!

I'm currently considering two options; continuing the integrated route and get a Denon AVR-4520 partnered with the matching DBT-3313 (will allow budget for tweaking accessories) or go the separates route with dedicated processor Marantz AV8801 and amplifier NuForce MCH-300C7 (no budget for tweaking accessories). I've demoed a couple of NuForce amplifiers and they are damn spectacular, not to mention compact, efficient and powerful. Could possibly blow the Apex through the roof!

I reckon since I've enjoyed my current Denon so much and everything else has failed to wow me, that both these implementations ought to please me (Marantz being Denons sibling). As usual I won't buy anything until I've tried em at home first (within the next few months). So far I've heard good things about both options. Additionally I will purchase Audyssey Pro Kit aswell, regardless.

BTW, still discovering amazing things with Apex through your Anthem Statement amp? Tell me more!

 

[atkins4725]

Morning all,

I'm going to get an SPL meter to check the settings after the auto setup. I've read that the iphone apps are pretty much crap for this??? So was goin to head down to maplin and buy one, realistically how much needs to be spent??

Also, after having to watch Total Recall in LPCM due to Bitstream kept cutting the sound off i noticed the sound was so much better, more open and much more detail. When i switched back to Bitstream to double check my ears, the sound didn't have anywhere near as much impact. This has now got me doubting my Marantz :-(

 

[michael hoy]

Morning all,

I'm going to get an SPL meter to check the settings after the auto setup. I've read that the iphone apps are pretty much crap for this??? So was goin to head down to maplin and buy one, realistically how much needs to be spent??

Also, after having to watch Total Recall in LPCM due to Bitstream kept cutting the sound off i noticed the sound was so much better, more open and much more detail. When i switched back to Bitstream to double check my ears, the sound didn't have anywhere near as much impact. This has now got me doubting my Marantz :-(

If it helps I use
Radioshack Sound Level Meter Digital Display

 

[ric71]

Hey Ricky,

yep I agree that you should stick to Denon/ Marantz ha ha. The Pro kit will be the icing on the cake and well worth it.

I did consider changing The Apex for some MK's but the Apex fit perfectly in my room, sound great and I really don't feel i am lacking anything..one thing I am considering is adding a pair of front height speakers. I used to run them with my old Denon and kinda want them back. Just deciding whether to get another pair of A10's or use my existing A10's as front heights and then buy a pair of A 40's for main L&R. Don't know if I can justify the financial outlay of two A40's as I don't find the A10's lacking TBH. Hmmm decisions and better start saving.

I haven't discovered anything new but it's great to have a system that puts a smile on your face whenever you use it.

 

[RickyDeg]

Oy, well you know M&K's are fantastic systems for movies, music I haven't been too impressed with though (I've demoed the 950's and 750's). I can relate to you sticking with Apex for a while longer. I too have been keeping an eye on other speakers, namely Kef's R-series, but don't think I'll change anytime soon. I vote for you adding a pair of A40's to your front trio and going 7.1 with A10 heights!

It's cool knowing you miss the effect of those height-channels. I remember my very first Yamaha receiver back in the 90's with those 'presence' height channels, watching Jurassic Park on laserdisc - it was stunningly effective. The alternative new algorithms are good, although DTS Neo:X I think sounds the most natural in the demos I've had. Suppose you'll use the internal amplification in the MRX300 for the height-channels, or how witll you solve it since your Statement amp only has 5 channels?

 

[ellisdj]

Morning all,

I'm going to get an SPL meter to check the settings after the auto setup. I've read that the iphone apps are pretty much crap for this??? So was goin to head down to maplin and buy one, realistically how much needs to be spent??

Also, after having to watch Total Recall in LPCM due to Bitstream kept cutting the sound off i noticed the sound was so much better, more open and much more detail. When i switched back to Bitstream to double check my ears, the sound didn't have anywhere near as much impact. This has now got me doubting my Marantz :-(

I wouldnt worry too much about using your player feeding PCM - the conversion to PCM is a standard that all players amps etc will do, so it shouldnt be any better or any worse really. The theory that is has to be done in the receiver is not 100% correct

What is does do is free up / reduce the prcessing done within the receiver so that may mean a better overall sound depending on the receivers design components etc.

Meridian the inventor of the AV processor and many other things HiFi/ AV / Protocols etc their HD Audio systems only let you feed their systems PCM - they state its better to be done as early as possible in the player.

 

[MMW]

Anyone around here enjoys a Denon AVR4520-DBT3313UD / Apex combo?

I´m very curious about that combo (Denon HD link-Audissey LFC-all around 32 bit processing...)

Thanks!

 

[RickyDeg]

Anyone around here enjoys a Denon AVR4520-DBT3313UD / Apex combo?

I´m very curious about that combo (Denon HD link-Audissey LFC-all around 32 bit processing...)

Thanks!

Good question!

I plan on testing that very combo within the next couple months! I'll post my findings here, of course.

 

[MMW]

Hi RickyDeg!

You said in past posts you've tried Yamaha amps in your very own system. What Model and would you be so kind to elaborate in detail the sonic differences between the Yamaha and your Denon? Have you tried another Denon amp in your system? I´m very curious about your comments and experience because I think your room is almost like mine in size and system layout.

Thanks a lot in advance!!

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey MMV! :wave:

Basically I've had two receivers by Yamaha in the past but long before Apex and my current apartment came along. My very first one was in the mid-90's (whose modelname I can't remember). A number of years (and other brands) later came the RX-V2600. This was before the days of Blu-ray and HD soundtracks. My current Denon AVR-3808 became the replacement in 2008 and has been with me since. It's a little difficult to compare the two brands in this context since the Apex speakers are fairly new with me, and I've never used them with Yamaha, only heard a short in-store demo with the RX-A3020. The thing I remember vividly from my old Yamaha's was the natural immersion and theater-like feel the brought with movies. Music was fairly good too, in fact a tad better than my current Denon even. I never bothered with YPAO though. It was a disappointment in my situtation at that time as I didn't feel it improved upon anything, I'm sure it must have evolved alot since though.

But when I got to try the Denon with Audyssey I was sold. The big advantage for me is without doubt Audysseys Dynamic EQ (not to be confused with Dynamic Volume), which no other system seems to have, and soundtracks became even more engrossing than with the Yamaha.

I wouldn't say no to testing the RX-A3020 in my home but currently I got my eye set on Denon AVR-4520 or Marantz AV8801. I actually haven't tested any other Denon model, but rather two models by Onkyo (TX-NR5009/10), also featuring Audyssey.

 

[MMW]

Hey MMV! :wave:

Basically I've had two receivers by Yamaha in the past but long before Apex and my current apartment came along. My very first one was in the mid-90's (whose modelname I can't remember). A number of years (and other brands) later came the RX-V2600. This was before the days of Blu-ray and HD soundtracks. My current Denon AVR-3808 became the replacement in 2008 and has been with me since. It's a little difficult to compare the two brands in this context since the Apex speakers are fairly new with me, and I've never used them with Yamaha, only heard a short in-store demo with the RX-A3020. The thing I remember vividly from my old Yamaha's was the natural immersion and theater-like feel the brought with movies. Music was fairly good too, in fact a tad better than my current Denon even. I never bothered with YPAO though. It was a disappointment in my situtation at that time as I didn't feel it improved upon anything, I'm sure it must have evolved alot since though.

But when I got to try the Denon with Audyssey I was sold. The big advantage for me is without doubt Audysseys Dynamic EQ (not to be confused with Dynamic Volume), which no other system seems to have, and soundtracks became even more engrossing than with the Yamaha.

I wouldn't say no to testing the RX-A3020 in my home but currently I got my eye set on Denon AVR-4520 or Marantz AV8801. I actually haven't tested any other Denon model, but rather two models by Onkyo (TX-NR5009/10), also featuring Audyssey.

Hi again!

What do you think about your RX-A3020/apex store demo? (focusing in how do you feel about the tonal or "aural" differences vs you are getting right now with your denon/apex system at home). I know this is a hard to answer question if you have just heard a short demo...I have a brief experience too with the Onkyo 5010. Did you test the Onkyo 5010 at home? If so, how it compares vs your Denon/apex system?

Thanks for your kind and detailed comments!! 🙂

 

[ric71]

Hi Ricky,

yeah I will use the internal amplification of the MRX to drive the front heights. :dance:

 

[RickyDeg]

Hi again!

What do you think about your RX-A3020/apex store demo? (focusing in how do you feel about the tonal or "aural" differences vs you are getting right now with your denon/apex system at home). I know this is a hard to answer question if you have just heard a short demo...I have a brief experience too with the Onkyo 5010. Did you test the Onkyo 5010 at home? If so, how it compares vs your Denon/apex system?

Thanks for your kind and detailed comments!! 🙂

Hey again MMV!

Don't think I could give an honest opinion of that short 5 minute in-store demo I had of the Apex with RX-V3020. They were running 'War Of The Worlds' on Blu-ray and overall it sounded good, but I can never grasp a product by in-store demos only (even thorough ones) - I have to test them at home. In terms of the Onkyo TX-NR5010; I never posted my review of it here because it was so similar to the former 5009, which I reviewed earlier (see the link below - post #10 on that page):

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/the-apex-club?page=51

 

[atkins4725]

EllisDJ - thanks or the reply. Think I'll have to play a few Blu Rays compare the difference. Although, I do have my eyes on anthem.

Ricky - I've just checked my settings with an SPL meter and the front 3 speakers came back at 71db and the sub at 80db. Before I start fiddling and knocking out Audyssey's hard work I thought I'd ask if its worth upping the levels to read the 75db on the meter???

Thanks for the help.

 

[MMW]

Hey again MMV!

Don't think I could give an honest opinion of that short 5 minute in-store demo I had of the Apex with RX-V3020. They were running 'War Of The Worlds' on Blu-ray and overall it sounded good, but I can never grasp a product by in-store demos only (even thorough ones) - I have to test them at home. In terms of the Onkyo TX-NR5010; I never posted my review of it here because it was so similar to the former 5009, which I reviewed earlier (see the link below - post #10 on that page):

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/the-apex-club?page=51

Thanks RickyDeg! I´ve read your comments about the 5009 and found your experience very similar to mine regarding music listening. As I said I´m very curious about the AVR5020/3313UD combo cause right now I´m experimenting several and frustrating handshaking issues with my RX-A3020/Pioneer PDP-LX508D pairing (never happened with the 3010 or 2010) and I´m considering giving the Denon 4520/3313 combo a try. I´ll let you know if I arrange a home demo and I'll post my comments here for sure. The only problem is the Denon combo is a lot more expensive than the Yamaha... :?

 

[RickyDeg]

UGH! I understand you fully MMV! Handshake issues are no fun! 😡 It seems a very common problem for many users since it's one of the major issues between HDMI components for whatever technical reason. I'm experiencing it too between my current Oppo BDP-93 and Denon AVR-3808, but it's only related to bitstream audio in my case, not video. The audiosignal has a delay of about 1-2 seconds before it "locks" in the receiver, and thus intros of soundtracks are missing. No biggie, but still irritating. I recently connected dual HDMI cables from the Oppo and it aids the problem somewhat - one HDMI fed to my TV (sends video only) and another fed to the receiver (sends audio but also video).

Same as you I am curious aswell about the AVR-4520 / DBT-3313 combo because there often is a wonderful synergy between Denon machines that are constructed to play together as a team. Certainly one could argue that's nothing more than clever marketing but I think there's more to it. I never had any issues whatsoever when I used my old Denon 2500BT blu-ray player with my receiver, and it was beautifully built (but too big and slow, compared to the newer Oppo). The two most interesting features about the DBT-3313 is that it offers true separation of the HDMI signal - one for video only, and a separate one for audio only (Pure Direct A/V) - the Oppo doesn't quite do it the same way - plus the benefit of having Denon Link HD for jitterfree transfer. Not sure how effective it is on bitstream signals but I've read positive feedback from owners on the improvements. Subtle, sure, but then I'm all about subtleties! Also, since it's a 'transport-player' there's no waste on built-in multichannel decoders or excessive analog circuits that you likely don't need or would ever use. Still, it's not a cheap player!

In terms of the Yamaha/Denon receiver price difference I'd say this: Yamaha is one of those brands who don't rely much on third-party components or expensive licenses (THX, Audyssey etc) as they produce alot themselves and have expertise in that area. Thus they can keep their prices down a bit.

Like I've mentioned before though, if I were to try the RX-A3020 (which does seem like a fine machine) I bet I'll just end up missing Audyssey and Dynamic EQ, in particular, since I seem to be addicted to it. Hence the Denon AVR-4520 or the processor Marantz AV8801 seem the most logical choice for me. Not to mention upgrading to Audyssey Pro, which in conjunction with MultEQ XT32 really interests me!

 

[MMW]

Thanks for your kind comments RickyDeg! Right now I'm almost decided to try the 4520/3313 combo at home very soon. I'll let you know about it.

Thanks again!! :cheers:

 

[jcshutts]

I am slowly working my way through the 1300 posts on this thread but I cant find anything comparing the RW12 and AW12. I am sure its there.

I am looking to buy 7.1 Apex with 3x A40 at tge front and the rest on A10. I could do with a steer on the difference in the two subs. Sorry if this has been debated greatly already.