The Apex Club

[atkins4725]

Afternoon gents,

I'm still in the process of constantly tweaking my setup to get it sounding at it's best and just wondered if when you guys put on a cd, do you set everything to direct, allowing the full frequency range to the front 2 A10's???

Rick.

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey Rick! I actually use 'All Channel Stereo' believe it or not, as I find just using 2.0 or even 2.1 with Apex won't cut it in my room. I want the music to fill my listeningspace and so that mode works surprisingly well through my Denon. Mine is a 4 year old model and it has individual channel level settings per source input (something newer models seem to have omitted - what a failure!) so I can easily balance the sound regardless of the original settings for film and tv. This way music sounds spacious and engrossing with a nice 'punch'. May not be 'correct' in pure hi-fi terms but it works for me.

:rockout:

 

[Anonymous]

I have heard in a Demo room using same Av receiver which was a Pioneer Lx 85 both apex + Kef Ls50's set up the apex were 4 x A10's ,A40 center , then 5 x kef Ls 50's both were very very good but I did feel the Kef's did stand out to be better definitely with the music side and just as good if not better in playing the movies even the staff all preferred the kef's sound :cheers:

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey stigi :wave:

Sounds like an interesting demo, even if I never been a fan of Pioneers receivers personally. I'm actually looking forward to demo the new KEF R series, even if I don't plan on changing speaker system. From having heard so much positive feedback of their new lines (R-series and LS50) I'm not surprised you liked them. The LS50's are also of a higher pricetag than Apex, so we should expect nothing less. I kinda like the idea of the Uni-Q technology for their large, multi-dimentional soundstage, and when I owned the 3005SE package I was rather impressed. These are of a higher class though.

 

[greedy]

Ricky> may i ask you, how many db is your subwoofers setting applied by Audyssey and did you change it to your preference?(if yes how many db?)

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey there greedy :wave: I actually re-ran my Audyssey calibration this weekend after having moved a few things around a bit and the system then set my subwoofers at +3.5db. I haven't made any manual changes to that in the Denon because it sounded just fine. Remember I have two AW-12's but XT ofcourse calibrates them as one. They were both set to 1/4 on their own volumeknobs prior to the calibration. I'm curious to know why you ask that? Do you have any issues with your settings?

 

[Simon Pinkney]

Was setting the subwoofer at only 1/4 volume recommended by MA?? The only reason I ask is I have a kef kube2 sub and Kef themselves say to set the frequency and volume on the sub to full. Admittedly my sub volume is on a minus compared to my speakers after running Pioneer speaker calibration so it may make no difference. I just wondered that's all!?

 

[RickyDeg]

Was setting the subwoofer at only 1/4 volume recommended by MA?? The only reason I ask is I have a kef kube2 sub and Kef themselves say to set the frequency and volume on the sub to full. Admittedly my sub volume is on a minus compared to my speakers after running Pioneer speaker calibration so it may make no difference. I just wondered that's all!?

Good question, Simon!

Everybody seems to recommend different things; Monitor Audio have their say, Denon another and Audyssey something else. In fact, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 not only recommends but and also does measurements to 75db volume setting for the sub and in my room that seems to work best. And it just so happens that 1/4 the volume on the Apex AW-12 equals 75db in my room. Since I currently don't have XT32 I use a sound pressure level meter just for the subwoofers before doing the calibration. Our ears and common sense should be the ultimate judge regardless of any recommendation though.

I'm not sure about KEF. When I had the 3005SE-system the included subwoofer (HTB2SE) didn't have any controls on it. Instead the receiver was left to take care of all of that. If I'm not mistaken KEF's other subwoofers in their rage don't have a filter bypass function? On the Apex AW-12 there is a flip-switch to deactivate the internal filter so the frequency knob become obsolete. After all, you only want the filter to be set by the receiver, not the subwoofer aswell. I suppose when you set the frequency knob to maximum it is bypassed? But also turning the volume to maximum seems a bit steep.

As long as it sounds ok then it's all good I suppose

 

[greedy]

Ricky> just interesting to know, i havent any problems with that.Audyssey Multeqxt32 set my subwoofer to -0,4db - it works fine, i cant detect where in my room the sub is.Sub is very good integrated.Sub volume knob is about ten o clock- similar to yours( to achieve 75db), thanks..

 

[RickyDeg]

Ok, greedy - BTW, you gotta get that Audyssey Pro kit very soon! I'm anxious!

How many spots in your room with the Apex speakers do you think you will measure once you get it? I suppose 32 positions is recommended for VERY large rooms (?). For me, the 8 'normal' spots is good in my small room but I think I could do at least 3-4 additional positions with Pro.

 

[greedy]

Ricky>i dont know when i will buy Audyssey Pro, because i am saving for my new Plasma Tv right now.( The plasma is in my equipment list like a dream Want to change my 32" Philips Lcd tv.. I want Panasonic 50VT50, but my wife worries, that it is too big.I think also about 42gt50..My room is not big too.. about 20 m2..I will ask Audyssey team how many measurements i must do in my room

 

[Chord_Freak]

I actually have the KEF KHT 2005.3 system with the Kube 2 subwoofer which I think is a pretty good system for the money.

I then upgraded to a 7.1 system and bought some Kef floorstanders - IQ50's from memory for the front L & R moving the egg speakers to the rear. Again, this works really well in my opinon. However, never satisfied and always looking to upgrade, I've just purchased an A40 for the centre. I was going to buy a Kef centre speaker but they were very big and very ugly!! The A40 is million times better looking than anything I was looking at and even better the sound is great too!

So, I'm thinking..... upgrade the surround speakers and surround back speaker from Kef Eggs to the A10's and maybe upgrade the front L&R at some point too!

What you think??

I upgraded from the Kef KHT 2005.3 5.1 speakers with the Kube 2 sub to the Apex 5.1 setup and the difference was immediately apparent! The Kefs were a good speaker package for the £800 but the £2500 Apex speaker package is in another league altogether (as you would expect for the price difference). There is a lot more detail from the apex, you will hear things with the Apex that you wouldn't hear with the Kefs - espcecially at the top-end and bottom-end of the frequency range. I was a bit dissapointed with the Kube-2 sub as it wouldn't go any lower than around 35hz (from memory?) - the Apex sub goes to <20hz and has twice the power. Having owned both setups I would say if you have the money to upgrade, do it - you won't be dissapointed!

 

[Simon Pinkney]

Chord Freak ..... Thanks for the comments. I sort of expected already that the apex system would be a better speaker if down to the price alone. However it's nice to hear from somebody who has direct comparison of the two different speakers. I definitely think this will be my next purchase!

 

[ellisdj]

Hey there greedy :wave: I actually re-ran my Audyssey calibration this weekend after having moved a few things around a bit and the system then set my subwoofers at +3.5db. I haven't made any manual changes to that in the Denon because it sounded just fine. Remember I have two AW-12's but XT ofcourse calibrates them as one. They were both set to 1/4 on their own volumeknobs prior to the calibration. I'm curious to know why you ask that? Do you have any issues with your settings?

surely it makes more sense to increase the volume knob on the subs themselves and not boost the level within the receiver past 0db. Receivers are not designed to have a high quality sub amp, just line level

if you check about and from experience boosting the level sounds far worse than actually driving the amp itself harder - most amps sound thir best when driven harder - then factor in you are driving a 12" speaker which is a large speaker. You want more amp power, not a higher input volume less power, even if it means calibrating again.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi, Joky, i have the same system as you From what are made your walls?Is it solid construction?or from gips (Knauf)?

Hi Greedy,

I'm finally all set up and it is sounding fantastic. I've wall munted the A10's and used Silver anniversary cables for all.

I've set up sing Audessey and will do another calibration i the new year....now that i have a couple of extra bits of funiture in the room.

I have an issue to iron out though, I get a slight picture judder when running sources through the Denon, have you experienced this at all? It is usually at the end of a frame when tracking. On the positve note the sound is amazing, o do need to turn it up to almost 75% volume to get some oomph from the Denon though.

The speakers are amazingly clear and i love them and the unobtusive look also.

I've also only used a HDMI for sky, and i beleive i need to use a optical cable to get digital from sky as its not passed throught he HDMI.

Overall amazing...I'll post some pics soon.

Joe

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Joe!

Soon we can welcome you to the club then! Exciting!

In regards to the Denon, since you are moving from traditional 2-channel to full fledged surround, I would strongly suggest you read the manual first (naturally) and excecute the Audyssey calibration procedure with patience and care to get the best out of it. If you have not already done so I'd urge you to get acquainted with Audyssey in general to find out more about it. Although automated, it is somewhat of a powerful calibration tool and reading up on it may prove beneficial.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/tour

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/home

1) use a steady tripod for the measuring microphone 2) make the room as quiet as possible and with no obstructions for the speakers (leave the room yourself, if possible) 3) place the mic according to the instructions by Audyssey/Denon 4) always utilize all 8 measuringpoints

Those are the basics. The whole idea is for Audyssey to gather as much information about your speakers and the acoustics of your room as possible. The more care you put into the set-up and speaker positioning the better results you'll get. Remember to experiment - every room is unique. But if you follow the basics and possibly re-calibrate a few times you'll understand better how the EQ-system works. Also laborate with the various Audyssey-settings once the calibration is complete ('flat'-setting sounds best in my room, for example). Keep in mind that settings done automatically sometimes need to be tweaked to your liking. Trust your ears. Worth remembering is also to re-calibrate when changing something in the room down the road. This is because things added or substracted to the room can have an effect on acoustics and may yield different EQ-results.

Let us know any other questions that might pop up! Enjoy the brilliance that is Apex!

Thanks for the Advice Ricky, I've put it all to good use.

The system is sounding awesome and i need to iron out some picture judder issues with the denon and get sky on a optical and I'm pretty much there.

I will be re-running Audessey in the new year to fine tune the sound however very happy. I really like the Denon amp its working great with the speakers. the Apex's are proving fantastic and pick out loads of detail.

If you have any other tips for improving the performance let me know.

thanks

joe

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey there greedy :wave: I actually re-ran my Audyssey calibration this weekend after having moved a few things around a bit and the system then set my subwoofers at +3.5db. I haven't made any manual changes to that in the Denon because it sounded just fine. Remember I have two AW-12's but XT ofcourse calibrates them as one. They were both set to 1/4 on their own volumeknobs prior to the calibration. I'm curious to know why you ask that? Do you have any issues with your settings?

surely it makes more sense to increase the volume knob on the subs themselves and not boost the level within the receiver past 0db. Receivers are not designed to have a high quality sub amp, just line level

if you check about and from experience boosting the level sounds far worse than actually driving the amp itself harder - most amps sound thir best when driven harder - then factor in you are driving a 12" speaker which is a large speaker. You want more amp power, not a higher input volume less power, even if it means calibrating again.

In theory your suggestion makes perfect sense, and in some rooms with some set-up's I'm sure it is the ideal solution. Not in my case however (I have tried this back-and-forth several times, since subwoofers are often the tricky part). Plus, as I stated in several other posts, setting my AW-12's to 1/4 of max volume happen to equal the suggested 75db recommendation by Audyssey when the Denon/Onkyo calibration tool measures the output volume.

Simply put; the setting I described sounds best in my room. When trying the opposite (your suggestion) low frequenzies have a slight tendency to sound a tad bloated and boomy. I'll be trying your suggestion again however as soon as I get XT32 with my next receiver/processor.

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey Joe :wave:

Great that you are happy with the results. Keep on experimenting with the Denon + Audyssey, possibly look into getting an Audyssey Pro kit to maximize the performance from your system. That's what I plan to do as soon as I have a new receiver/processor with XT32.

BTW: I just re-ran another 8-point Audyssey calibration this week during the holidays. I placed the tripod with mic in 5 straight-line positions in my 3-seat sofa and then the remaining 3 measurements right in front of it. Previously I've only done 3 measurements in the sofa (on each seat). The sound from the Apex has improved further now which is very interesting (larger soundstage + somewhat tighter bass). Seems I'm always discovering how 'sensitive' Audyssey is (in the positive sense).

In terms of the judder issues - are you sure it's caused by routing the signal through the Denon? Have you tried connecting the HDMI cable directly to the TV just to check if you can rule the Denon out? Suppose you could also try to disable any picture processing within the Denon (put it to 'through' or 'direct' in the picture menu settings). I'd suggest also updating the firmware in the Pioneer (I had the LX55 when I tested one of their receivers and the picture juddered terribly before I made the firmware update). Just a few tips. If that doesn't help, it may simply be the case of the Pioneer itself and the interaction with your particular TV. I have an Oppo player now and it judders slightly in certain 'difficult' scenes on my Samsung LCD, whereas when I had my old Denon blu-ray player I never had that problem (using exactly same TV/cables/connection method). This is partly why I am considering looking into a new Denon (or Marantz) blu-ray player. Love the quality of those machines!

 

[ellisdj]

Hey there greedy :wave: I actually re-ran my Audyssey calibration this weekend after having moved a few things around a bit and the system then set my subwoofers at +3.5db. I haven't made any manual changes to that in the Denon because it sounded just fine. Remember I have two AW-12's but XT ofcourse calibrates them as one. They were both set to 1/4 on their own volumeknobs prior to the calibration. I'm curious to know why you ask that? Do you have any issues with your settings?

surely it makes more sense to increase the volume knob on the subs themselves and not boost the level within the receiver past 0db. Receivers are not designed to have a high quality sub amp, just line level

if you check about and from experience boosting the level sounds far worse than actually driving the amp itself harder - most amps sound thir best when driven harder - then factor in you are driving a 12" speaker which is a large speaker. You want more amp power, not a higher input volume less power, even if it means calibrating again.

In theory your suggestion makes perfect sense, and in some rooms with some set-up's I'm sure it is the ideal solution. Not in my case however (I have tried this back-and-forth several times, since subwoofers are often the tricky part). Plus, as I stated in several other posts, setting my AW-12's to 1/4 of max volume happen to equal the suggested 75db recommendation by Audyssey when the Denon/Onkyo calibration tool measures the output volume.

Simply put; the setting I described sounds best in my room. When trying the opposite (your suggestion) low frequenzies have a slight tendency to sound a tad bloated and boomy. I'll be trying your suggestion again however as soon as I get XT32 with my next receiver/processor.

The suggestion is the same for every room - I dont see how raising the volume on the receiver or raising the volume on the sub is any different?

If you send it a larger signal it amplifies less - if you send it a smaller signal it amplifies more to achieve the same output???

However you are double amplying - I have never once heard that to be a good thing and it makes no sense as you have volume controls on the sub - set the subs higher and let the auto calibration reduce the volume to hit the correct db.

I think you hear boomy bass as your subs are actually trying to produce the lowest notes and correct amount and your room doesnt cope as is normal and your auto cal setup has not done a good enough job to tame the modes. So turning down is the only option.

I am saying all this as have been there before - I have just got to the point where I can run my sub hard 6db ish hot and I am getting completely clean bass down to about 35htz where it does mode, however I am getting away with it as its mostly effects, rumble etc and cant do anything about it without compromising the rest

I have a sealed box 12" sub and it has to work bloody hard to hit the low notes - thats why it has a lot of power. You have exactly the same sub so the same will apply.

Obviously you are running 2 so that helps with the very low end boost - but they still need turning up to properly do their thing - i.e. give you clean controlled textured bass - the same as any speaker, but worse as its larger and it has to move either really fast or really slow to do what it needs to do. It makes more sense to reduce the level on the amp set it at -5db and boost the levels on the subs

 

[michael hoy]

Ellisdj,

This is how i set my sub up as well, the volume is set to the 10 o'clock position and then the amp is reduced to - 6.5 ( my sub is close to the seating position).

The result is that a friend of mine came to visit recently and asked to listen to my system, and he could not tell where my sub was.

 

[RickyDeg]

ellisdj - like I said, I'm following Audysseys recommendation to set the subwoofer output volume to 75db (measured by the MultEQ microphone, although I've also used a sound pressure level meter to varify) and that happens to land at 1/4 the volume on the AW-12 in my room (both when using a Denon and Onkyo receiver with Audyssey). This might be because both subwoofers are placed in corners (front and back of the room) and thus the measured outbut is the result of a low frequency boost? Why the Audyssey calibration tool then sets the LFE volume in the receiver to +3.5db I cannot say. The end result sounds good to my ears though so at the moment I see no reason to experiment further at this point. However, having that said, things can always get better so I'm gonna take your recommendation under consideration when I get a new receiver/processor and Audyssey Pro kit.

Thanks for your input.

 

[michael hoy]

ellisdj - like I said, I'm following Audysseys recommendation to set the subwoofer output volume to 75db (which MultEQ calculates, although I've also used a sound pressure level meter to varify) and that happens to land at about 1/4 the volume on the AW-12 in my room (both when using a Denon and Onkyo receiver with Audyssey). This might be because both subwoofers are placed in corners (front and back of the room) and thus the measured outbut volume is the result of a low frequency boost? Why the Audyssey calibration tool then sets the LFE volume in the receiver to +3.5db I cannot say. The end result sounds good to my ears though so at the moment I see no reason to experiment further at this point. However, having that said, things can always get better so I'm gonna take your recommendation under consideration when I get a new receiver/processor and Audyssey Pro kit.

Grateful for your input.

Hi Ricky,

My sub is set to output 75db as well as with all my speakers.

Have you tried setting the sub volume higher, then running the Audyssey setup. This must reduce the amp output accordingly.

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey there Michael :wave: (Happy New Year, by the way!)

Oh yes, I have indeed done that experiment a few times. I've previsouly set the subwoofers alot higher than 1/4, or 9 o'clock, and yes the Audyssey calibration tool will then reduce the LFE output from the receiver to somewhere below 0db. However, in those situations my subs then sound a bit bloated and boomy (a bit easier to localize) as compared to the setting I have now. The trick is that when I had the Onkyo TX-NR5010 for testing and ran the pre-calibration of the subs reaching 75db simply landed at 1/4 in my case, but if I rotated the volumeknob higher the 75db mark was not met and I suppose Audyssey then had to compensate for the mismatch. I didn't like the end result.

 

[greedy]

People , we are talking about own preference v.s reference deal.Audyssey taking control that all speakers will give 75db sound pressure level, when you turn your volume to -0.0db ( reference level or ethalonic level, how we say).I prefer what Audyssey does- and doesnt do any bass manual tweaking.Sub sound very good, sounds powerfull, hits fast.If you want experience real feeling like "in the movie"- turn volume knob to near reference level - nowadays movie sound engineers like to tune movie soundtrack in that way - that all it beauty experiences at high sound pressure levels - like in movie theather :O

 

[atkins4725]

-0.0db??? My volume never really goes past -25.0 when watching Blu ray and that's with dynamic volume set to light, sometimes medium. I'd love to experience a Blu ray at "Referance level"