The Apex Club

[RickyDeg]

Hello!

I currently have an Arcam AVR350 with Quad L-ites 5.1 and I'm looking to replace my front 3 speakers. As the speakers will need to be wall mounted, I'm considering the Apex. For now I will only be replacing the LCR speakers with perhaps the sub and sourrounds in the next year (so the Quad L-ite sub will have to do for now).

I can most probably afford 3 x A40's but I'm concerned that perhaps I cannot fit all 3 and may have to buy a pair of A10's instead for left and right. See the below image.

I'm planning to mount my screen above a radiator and is it is 194cm (76.5") wide. Unfortunately it is the only wall in the room where the screen will fit. To the left of the screen is my 46" TV which is wall mounted. I sit 11" from the screen which means the left/right speakers should be around 9" apart optimally.

So my dilemma.

1) Buy 3 x A40's and mount them all horizontally under the screen with around a 5cm (2") cap between them. One issue: with the speakers so close together, will that ruin the soundstage?

2) Buy 3 x A40's and mount the centre under the screen and the left/right speakers vertically high up so the top of the speakers are in line with the top of the screen. Two issues: a) Will sounds bounce off the back of the TV on the left hand side and b) with the speaker that high, how do I angle the two vertical speakers down slightly to point at the listening position.

3) Buy 3 x A40's and mount them all horizontally with the left/right above the screen and the centre below it.

4) Buy 2 x A10's as left/rights and do either 1) or 2) above.

One other question..... how will the Apex speakers react to being mounted above a radiator and have warm air rising around it? I'm sure they must be designed to be used in hot countries where the air temperature would be warmer than anything coming off he radiators?

Appreciate any and all input!

Hey sjeire :wave: thought I'd jump in here cause no one has yet to offer any input.

First, your room is a real challenge in terms of placement, which I can sympathize with. Second, my initial reaction in your particular case would be to go with example 1) > mounting all 3 A40's horizontally directly under the screen. That may provide a neater looking arrangement. But yes, the soundstage might be compromised somewhat. I say might, because every room and the acoustics within it are different from the next (as are our expectations of the result). Given how fairly well Apex disperse the sound you might end up not experiencing an issue at all. In fact, if I had 3 A40's in the front that's probably how I would place them myself. This comes down to personal preference, but I believe the benifit of putting all three front speakers aligned on an equal plane with eachother in close proximity to the screen makes panning effects/dialogue appear more unified and seamless. Placing them at different levels and/or very wide apart often "break" that illusion.

However, traditional 2-channel stereo through front L/R speakers placed close together may prove less than ideal. But I see no way around a compromise. You could still enjoy the result.

In terms of your other concern about the radiator I dare say nothing :O

Let us know how you get on & good luck whatever you decide to do!

 

[greedy]

Stigi> i know, about what your talking..There is confrontation below me and my wife, because i want to get 50inch Panasonic plasma, she thinks its to big..She hates my Playstation 3, because i like gaming.. Likes only Apex with my AVR-4311 because they sounds good..First time, when saw Apex set, she dont like aw-12..Now its ok..Goddamn pus*yy riot |(

Atkins> for my wife, i say something like you, when talking about price.I think she cant detect this tv is panasonic 50st50 or 50vt50 :clap:

Ricky> can i ask you, what is the distance from your tv to your main sitting position?i'm asking, because want to buy new 50inch plasma tv..

 

[Anonymous]

Just read your post and it had me in stitches as me and my wife are having exactly the same debate (argument) about the TV. I think a 50” plasma will fit but she doesn’t.

 

[RickyDeg]

Hey greedy - my sofa is about 2.3 meters from the 52" Samsung LCD-screen. It's pretty close because of my fairly small room, but it feels really great (only view HD-material so the resolution is teriffic). Actually, I wanna go a few inches larger for my next screen; 55" (possibly the Panasonic TX-P55VT50... although personally I've yet to be very impressed with plasma).

BTW, today I returned the Onkyo TX-NR5010 to my dealer after test-driving it with Apex for about 3 weeks. Just like the previous model TX-NR5009 it was stellar with movie soundtracks but didn't work for me with music.

 

[greedy]

Chritsmas Jones>why your wife dont like 50" tv?My wife worries about that can be uncomfortable to view such large tv from 2.7m distance.Only that..what about yours?

RickyDeg>Thank you for your reply.Do you have plans to test avr-4520?I'm very happy with my Denon and Apex.I will buy Audyssey Pro kit and recalibrate Avr-4311.But i have a dream to buy Focal Electra Be in the future, i fall in love with that Berylium tweeter..

 

[RickyDeg]

No such plans at the moment, greedy, but it is interesting! Thought I'd wait until you've tested yours with Audyssey Pro first, hehe. Will be great to hear your feedback on that one! I'm confident it's gonna squeeze even more performance out of the Apex. Will you do the Pro calibration yourself or will you get a dealer/installer professional to do it for you?

Oh yes, those Berylium tweeters by Focal are rather addictive, right?! But also costly! I have actually been keen to listen to KEF's new R-sereis myself (though I still love Apex of course). The design is minimalistic and sleek. They are said to have a very threedimentional sound.

 

[greedy]

Ricky> I will do Audyssey Pro calibration myself, because its simple.Only you need a laptop, all other parts are in the kit.I'm thinking to get Panasonic plasma first of all, then i'll buy Audyssey Pro kit.Focal Electra Be is expensive for me, too.But anyway, i'll buy it in the future.My friend from Lithuania hdtv forum owns Focal Electra 1008 Be with Denon AVR-4311.He is extremally happy I dream to get 5.1 full set of Electras, with 1028 fronts, maybe only sub not Focal, but Velodyne DD series..And Panasonic 65 inch plasma.Then will need to replaning my room and i already know, what i will use to AMp them

 

[RickyDeg]

Well greedy, in such case that we switch speakers we won't be members of this club anymore hehe

All I know is Apex have made me realise what truly well-made sub/sat-systems are capable of. Yes, there are shortcomings aswell (what speaker does not have shortcomings?) but until I hear something substantially better around the same pricepoint Apex are my reference for this type of system. I perfectly understand your love for the Electra's, 10 years ago I owned the Focal Electra 926 floorstanding speaker and adored it. The new models are an improvement I'm sure.

 

[greedy]

Ricky>After i buy Electras- it will be not soon( or maybe after a month ,if i win lottery), i will place my Apex set to my bedroom 8)Hope my wife will like my idea :wave: I havent heard any sub/sat system that can outperform Apex..Electras are brilliant with Aire components http://www.ayre.com/products.htm , but they are expensive too...

 

[Anonymous]

Wow what a thread, interesting reading. I’m planning a mayor upgrade of my complete AV setup and was looking at a set of B&W M1’s with the ASW608 or PV1D sub and either the Pioneer SC-LX56 or Onkyo TX-NR818 amp running them.

But after reading most of the 77 pages of this massive thread I’m now starting to wonder if the Apex A10’s would be a better speaker, with a AW12 sub.

I was going to go with the Pioneer but after reading how RickyDeg got on auctioning the amps, I’m now wondering if the Onkyo would be better bet, and a bit cheaper.

Just like to say great thread.

 

[greedy]

Christmas Jones> Try Apex and decide If comparing between Apex and Bowers sat/sub system , first of all, look at the center channel.Apex center is superior in my opinion, its very important, because its a main channel in movies soundrack.Second thing is AW-12 is a great sub.Very good integration between sub and satelites.I recommend you to buy receiver with MULTEQXT32, and buy higher class receiver like Denon AVR-4520.OR AVR-4311 you may find now , at a very good price..I'm afraid of Onkyo, because i heard in the forums, and not only in the forums, that Onkyo nowadays has quality issues.Some time ago Onkyo recalled many receivers.But that only my personal opinion.. :shhh:

 

[RickyDeg]

Wow what a thread, interesting reading. I’m planning a mayor upgrade of my complete AV setup and was looking at a set of B&W M1’s with the ASW608 or PV1D sub and either the Pioneer SC-LX56 or Onkyo TX-NR818 amp running them.

But after reading most of the 77 pages of this massive thread I’m now starting to wonder if the Apex A10’s would be a better speaker, with a AW12 sub.

I was going to go with the Pioneer but after reading how RickyDeg got on auctioning the amps, I’m now wondering if the Onkyo would be better bet, and a bit cheaper.

Just like to say great thread.

Hey Christmas Jones Welcome to the thread! Hope you'll end up also joining the club!

Personally I can't say anything about the B&W's as I've yet to hear them, let alone ever done any kind of comparison. But I know people who have and the majority voted Apex as their favorite of the two. As always you'll never know what suits you and your preferences unless you try them out first, hopefully in your own home surroundings (although that is often tricky with speaker packages). I'll just advice you to demo, demo and demo again if possible. But Apex do kinda rock!

If Onkyo and Pioneer are your primary choices I would pick the former of the two mostly cause I favour Audyssey. That's not to say other systems like MCACC, YPAO or ARC can't do great things - they just didn't suit my personal taste or work well in my room. As you may have already seen throughout the thread I've tested the TX-NR5009 and the 5010 and were mighty impressed by their engrossing and forceful reproduction of movie soundtracks, but less so for music. I listen to 50/50, so both gotta 'pop' in order for me to invest. For you it might be different.

In terms of Audyssey and MCACC, they are two different animals when it comes to calibration and EQ. Just know that you may have to prepare to do some heavy manual tweaking of the EQ in Pioneers MCACC in case the automated one doesn't float your boat (natually you don't have to use it at all if you don't want to). Despite my efforts with both the SC-LX83 and 85 I never managed to make them sing with Apex in my room so I sadly had to ditch em. But lots of folks swear by MCACC and enjoy Pioneer with Apex. There is not much tweaking possible in Audyssey, but I've never felt like I've needed that either. And Dynamic EQ (included in Audyssey) is a feature I find myself missing with every other system I've tested and in this context that feature seems rather unique.

 

[michael hoy]

Wow what a thread, interesting reading. I’m planning a mayor upgrade of my complete AV setup and was looking at a set of B&W M1’s with the ASW608 or PV1D sub and either the Pioneer SC-LX56 or Onkyo TX-NR818 amp running them.

But after reading most of the 77 pages of this massive thread I’m now starting to wonder if the Apex A10’s would be a better speaker, with a AW12 sub.

I was going to go with the Pioneer but after reading how RickyDeg got on auctioning the amps, I’m now wondering if the Onkyo would be better bet, and a bit cheaper.

Just like to say great thread.

Hi and welcome,

The Apex are without doubt an amazing sub sat combination, there is alot of debate on here about the vertues of Denon with XT32 and Pioneer's MCACC.

I have had a Denon previously and currently have a Pioneer, if you want the amp to complete the setup for you and you do not want to tweak further buy the Onkyo because it is cheaper.

If however you like to get your hands dirty and reap the rewards buy the Pioneer, the sound is very clear and engaging.

I personally would not just let any amp make all the settings and not then tweak until I am completely happy.

Before I purchased the Apex, I demoed them with a Onkyo and a Arcam AVR 500. The Onkyo was good but the Arcam was in a different league, once I had purchased the Apex I had a Pioneer LX72 on home demo which gave me food for thought and ended up with the LX85.

The Apex / Pioneer combo works very well with both movies and music.

Have a demo if possible of the Onkyo, Denon and Pioneer, but make sure the dealer does calibrate the amps correctly or you may well be disapointed with the demo.

All the best in your choice.

 

[Anonymous]

There is no doubts Apex are a great speaker for there size in same price range have a good look at the Kef Ls 50's 5x Ls 50's are around the £3k little more expensive than Apex but Wow and I mean Wow you got to here them there a little bigger than Apex but the sounds unbeliable,there is plenty info and reveiews I would defiantly have a look :cheers:

 

[Anonymous]

There is no doubts Apex are a great speaker for there size in same price range have a good look at the Kef Ls 50's 5x Ls 50's are around the £3k little more expensive than Apex but Wow and I mean Wow you got to here them there a little bigger than Apex but the sounds unbeliable,there is plenty info and reveiews I would defiantly have a look :cheers:

 

[paulbroke]

Hi Everyone,

Banana Plugs or Bare Wire cable connection, which is the best performance for us? (I use bare wire connection, will this cause the oxidation problem and poor sound quality)?

 

[RickyDeg]

Hi Everyone,

Banana Plugs or Bare Wire cable connection, which is the best performance for us? (I use bare wire connection, will this cause the oxidation problem and poor sound quality)?

Without any doubt - use banana or spade connection in both ends (amp & speaker), if possible. That more than often will secure a tight fit for best possible signal transfer + the risk of oxidation is mute.

 

[paulbroke]

Thanks RickyDeg

 

[michael hoy]

Hi Everyone,

Banana Plugs or Bare Wire cable connection, which is the best performance for us? (I use bare wire connection, will this cause the oxidation problem and poor sound quality)?

+1 on the banana plugs.

 

[greedy]

Stigi> if Kef,s - i better buy Kef r100 5.1 package.In my opinion Kef ls 50 is for hi-fi mini monitor use.It's not for home theater..It doesnt have matching centre speaker which is the main thing in home theather setup.I suggest think about that..Another thing you can buy if dont want floorstanders is Monitor audio gx50 or gx100 with matching center- i like that speaker very much.. http://www.hometheater.com/content/monitor-audio-gold-gx50-speaker-system

Michael> about tweaking setting, that are made by calibration system.It depends on what user likes..But its preference vs reference deal.I done automatic Audyssey calibration and i`m completely happy with that.I think system must reproduce soundtrack this way, like films sound engineer created.Can you tell what kind of manuall tweaking you done?What you dont like in your auto-calibration?In which ranges, what you changed?

 

[michael hoy]

Greedy,

You can use a single LS50 as the centre, it would give a perfect match and tonal quality across the front soundstage.

Check the LS50 thread here.

As far as the Pioneer tweaking is concerened, it is initially about producing the flat reponse curve that the MCACC allows you to export as a graph and work out what needs changing.

Hard surfaces (wooden floors, glass coffee tables and walls) all create reflections and these need to be ironed out.

The only room correction software I have not tried is the ARC built into the Anthem amps, but both the Pioneer and the Denon I have had experience with.

 

[greedy]

michael> yes, we can use it as a center..it`s maybe only my personal preference- dont like that type use as a center...

 

[gunny]

Wow what a thread, interesting reading. I’m planning a mayor upgrade of my complete AV setup and was looking at a set of B&W M1’s with the ASW608 or PV1D sub and either the Pioneer SC-LX56 or Onkyo TX-NR818 amp running them.

But after reading most of the 77 pages of this massive thread I’m now starting to wonder if the Apex A10’s would be a better speaker, with a AW12 sub.

Hi Christmas,

I was in the exact same situation as you are with regards to speaker choice. I was coming from B&W DM-603 S3's so assumed that the B&W M-1 package would be my best bet. After having a first demo with them I found them to be a bit lacking; something was missing.

After a lot of online reading I heared about the Apex series and found a dealer that had both the old M-1's, the new M-1's and the Apex series.

I auditioned all 3 standalone (so without sub) to hear what they were capable of when being fed with some nice songs, and both myself AND THE WIFE (!!!) were blown away by the difference between the M-1's and the Apex's. The Apex range is much more transparant and has a wider sound stage, along with the ability to go lower compared to the M-1's.

Needless to say that the choice was an easy one after that.

One word on the choice of the sub.

I tend to disagree with most people here when it comes to choosing a sub to go along with the Apex.

There is no such thing as a matching sub, any proper sub will do just fine as long as it is adjusted properly to take over when the Apex's start to struggle (so low freq). In my eyes (and this is a very big IMO) the AW-12, although a very capable sub, is way overpriced. For that kind of money you can buy a sub that will run circles round the AW-12 and then some.

After having reviewed a full Apex set with the AW-12 sub, I opted to buy the BK XXLS400 sub. I can honestly say that this sub is at least the equal of the AW-12, at a far lesser cost! Which means more money that you can spend on a proper AV amp (remember, Apex LOVES power, so take the extra money you saved on the sub and spend it on a proper amp).

One of the good things about the BK subs is that they come in a very wide range of finishes (both matt and gloss color or wood finish) and you can even choose between Front firing or down firing, which is a good thing is the wife isn't very keen on having a woofer in plain sight.

We have the Down firing flavour and the wife has already adopted it to put a nice lamp, plant or whatever on top of it (a customer made glass plate ensures that there's no damage to the top when putting things on top).

Just my 2 cents; of course demoing is very important as you might actually like the new B&W over the Apex (the new M-1's I have to say are a major improvement over the old ones).

 

[RickyDeg]

I definitely agree with michael hoy about using identical speakers. That will guarantee perfect match and tonal quality. As good of a match as the A10 and A40 are with each other, having 3 x A10 or 3 x A40 in the front (or preferably all-round) will always be better than mixing them togehter. That goes for all kinds of speakers, so I the KEF LS50 would work perfectly in that configuration.

I think sometimes people underestimate (or have no experience of) the importance of absolute tonal match between every speaker in a multichannel set-up. Try to experience a demo of a system using exactly the same speaker in a 5.1 set-up and then after a while switch out the center to a different type and/or configuration and simply listen - even if the difference is minor you "break up" the illusion of a fully homogeneous soundfield that only identical speakers can create. Example: listen to the timber of voices as they pan across the front three channels; with identical speakers voices are kept completely cohesive, which is seldom the case when using a different configuration as the center. This is why mixing studios often use identical speakers for the entire system. I've been to demos like this and while casual listners may not notice, discernible listeners often will.

Granted, I myself am using a mix of A10 and A40, which I still consider a "compromise" in my case, but that is only because I cannot house or integrate any other solution at this time. Sadly.

If I could I would use 5 x A40

 

[Anonymous]

Well what can I say but a very big thank you to all the users that took the time to comment on my post.

I’ve decided, I’m going to purchase the TV as I’ve already have the money, and then audition the Apex with some different amps to see how they sound.

Been looking for Apex dealer where I live and came across Sevenoaks Sound and Vision, has anybody got any feed back on what they are like to deal with?

They sell the TV I want so I’m planning on auditioning the speakers when I see them about the TV.