The Apex Club

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Anonymous

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Cheers Rick. My sub is a BK XLS200 and I'm happy with it, compliments the APEX well.

Re: the power Amps the Rotel is available used for <£1K and looks like good value. Do you think I'm approaching this correctly i.e. Amp upgrade before receiver/processor?
 
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Anonymous

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ric71 said:
Cool I think it would be worth the upgrade.

I used to run Parasound power amps and they would sound great with the Apex, mind you so would the Bryston!!!

A few may say that these kind of power amps would be overkill but I don't see it that way.

Just because the Apex are satellite speakers does not mean that they do not deserve some seriously good power Amps to run them.

The detail you would get from Movies and music will be fantastic and having the power reserve will allow them to shine as long as you don't play them to stupid above reference levels they will be fine.
That's my thinking, more headroom and power when needed. What I'm trying to work out is how much better will it be than what I have today, my 985 is THX which means I do get 5 x 100 watts and to be fair it sounds good. But those above will be better, but which would be best? I'm not changing my speakers, I like them and they fit into my room really well.
 
jb001e9634 said:
Cheers Rick. My sub is a BK XLS200 and I'm happy with it, compliments the APEX well.

Re: the power Amps the Rotel is available used for <£1K and looks like good value. Do you think I'm approaching this correctly i.e. Amp upgrade before receiver/processor?

Hi JB

Your welcome.

If the RMB-1095 is available for around £750 and provided it is in full working order and in good condition then it would be good value. I feel £1k is a little too much.

Yes, i would look at a power amp such as the RMB-1095 first and then a processor. Using the RX-V2065 as a processor will be good enough for a while yet.

Alternatively (thinking out of the box) as a one box solution how about Yamaha's still superb DSP-Z11?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 
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Rick - final question, do you know when Rotel stopped making the 1095, i.e. how new the most recent ones would be?

Cheers
 

RickyDeg

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So I finally got the much-talked-about Anthem receiver (MRX700) home for personal evaluation. Been running it back-n-forth like crazy for the past few days. After all the hoopla that's been said over this receiver (and the brand in general) I was very anxious to see how well it would perform in my room with the kick-ass Apex speakers. Sadly, it hasn't impressd me. I agreed with my dealer for a 14-day trial, but I'm thinking it'll go back first thing monday morning. And here's why...
I went about the set-up of the advanced room correction system (ARC) with a lot of care and patience, as I knew this was key to exploring the supposed benifits of the receiver. Fresh in my mind was my evaluation of Pioneer's SC-LX83 and its MCACC this past summer, and how it failed to perform as I had hoped. It left a bitter aftertaste. And let's just say after the first 30 mins minutes of listening to some well-known music I was already missing my Denon AVR-3808. Not a good sign. But first impressions can be wrong. I tweaked a bit here, a bit there. Ran ARC thoughrougly a second time. Watched a bunch of blu-ray sequences. Ugh. The overall sound had a somewhat thin, slightly hollow, non-immersive character. A very un-inspiring listen and total difference compared to the results I get with Denon and it's Audyssey MultEQ, which works wonders with the Apex in my room.After the second day I switched back to the Denon, ran Audyssey all over, and everything simply fell into place. There was that palpable sense of power, scale, presence, dialogue delicacy and delightful vibrant tone to the sound I knew the Apex was capable of delivering. And the surround-channels were full of life in ways the Anthem was nowhere close to. Ok, my subwoofer weren't as firm and in a similarly tight grip as with the Anthem, but atleast it didn't lack the impact and integration I'd gotten to love. Again, I decided to put the Anthem to work and put it back. So I ran ARC yet again and continued to listen and tweak some settings and speakerpositions for a couple of days. Still no way near the Denon with Audyssey. And turning ARC off wasn't an improvement either.Some have said that it may take time getting use to the sound of the Anthem, but after what I've experienced there's no way I'd even want to get use to that sort of sound. Why should I when it came off so lackluster compard to what I had? Sure, one might argue that Audyssey's Dynamic EQ adds a bit of a loudness character to the reproduction. Perhaps its not a fair comparison. But never once have I felt as though Audyssey made things sound distorted, distracting or wrong to my ears. Quite the opposite infact. And yes, the Anthem with ARC might be more pin-point accurate but what good does accuracy do if it doesnt make your speakers sing and have you keep listening out of pure joy? Just the fact that the impact and immersiveness just dropped with the Anthem had me scratching my head. Not at all what I was expecting.Just like with the Pioneer I cant help ask myself what others possibly see in this machine and why it I didn't have anywhere near the same experience as they did? Now, I'm fully aware of the positive word-of-mouth and reviews for Anthem all over the place, and I'm glad some get alot of joy out of these machines (a select few have even called it em "game-changers"). I just shake my head at that after this trial. In my A/B comparison there is no way it tops the Denon in my room, with my speakers. In this case, there truly is a night-and-day difference. Perhaps its simple; the Anthem doesnt like my speakers? Or could it be my room, or whatever else? I dont know. So... another disappointing reciever to match my Apex. I doubt I'll try out another one for quite a while. The Denon is a match made in heaven it seems, and like they say: if it ain't broke don't fix it. But I cant imagine there aint nothing else out there that can not only match what I experience with the Denon but actually up the ant a bit. Perhaps it'll be another Denon model?And please dont get me wrong, I wasn't born a Denon Fanboy or anything, its just that ever since I got this receiver time and time again there hasn't been a single other machine that have won me over. I'll gladly switch to another brand, as long as it brings to the table what the Denon has, and then some. To ric71 - I know you were interested in this piece so don't take my word for it, but if I may say so I think you made the right choise going for the Arcam instead of this Anthem. You might have had a completely different experience than me though (would be cool if you got to test it aswell so we could compare, lol).So I finally got the much-talked-about Anthem receiver (MRX700) home for personal evaluation. Been running it back-n-forth like crazy for the past few days. After all the hoopla that's been said over this receiver (and the brand in general) I was very anxious to see how well it would perform in my room with the kick-ass Apex speakers. Sadly, it hasn't impressd me :-( I agreed with my dealer for a 14-day trial, but I'm thinking it'll go back first thing monday morning. And here's why...So I finally got the much-talked-about Anthem receiver (MRX700) home for personal evaluation. Been running it back-n-forth like crazy for the past few days. After all the hoopla that's been said over this receiver (and the brand in general) I was very anxious to see how well it would perform in my room with the kick-ass Apex speakers. Sadly, it hasn't impressd me. I agreed with my dealer for a 14-day trial, but I'm thinking it'll go back first thing monday morning. And here's why...
2gv2byc.png


I went about the set-up of the advanced room correction system (ARC) with a lot of care and patience, as I knew this was key to exploring the supposed benifits of the receiver. Fresh in my mind was my evaluation of Pioneer's SC-LX83 and its MCACC this past summer, and how it failed to perform as I had hoped. It left a bitter aftertaste. And let's just say after the first 30 minutes of listening to some well-known music I was already missing my Denon AVR-3808. Not a good sign. But first impressions can be wrong. I tweaked a bit here, a bit there. Ran ARC thoughrougly a second time. Watched a bunch of blu-ray sequences. Ugh. The overall sound had a somewhat thin, slightly hollow, non-immersive character. A very un-inspiring listen and total difference compared to the results I get with Denon and it's Audyssey MultEQ, which works wonders with the Apex in my room.

After the second day I switched back to the Denon, ran Audyssey all over, and everything simply fell into place. There was that palpable sense of power, scale, presence, dialogue delicacy and delightful vibrant tone to the sound I knew the Apex was capable of delivering. And the surround-channels were full of life in ways the Anthem was nowhere close to. Ok, my subwoofer weren't as firm and in a similarly tight grip as with the Anthem, but atleast it didn't lack the impact and integration I'd gotten to love. Again, I decided to put the Anthem to work and put it back. So I ran ARC yet again and continued to listen and tweak some settings and speakerpositions for a couple of days. Still no way near the Denon with Audyssey. And turning ARC off wasn't an improvement either.

Some have said that it may take time getting use to the sound of the Anthem, but after what I've experienced there's no way I'd even want to get use to that sort of sound. Why should I when it came off so lackluster compard to what I had? Sure, one might argue that Audyssey's Dynamic EQ adds a bit of a loudness character to the reproduction. Perhaps its not a fair comparison. But never once have I felt as though Audyssey made things sound distorted, distracting or wrong to my ears. Quite the opposite infact. And yes, the Anthem with ARC might be more pin-point accurate but what good does accuracy do if it doesnt make your speakers sing so you keep listening out of pure joy? Just the fact that the impact and immersiveness just dropped with the Anthem had me scratching my head. Not at all what I was expecting.

Just like with the Pioneer I cant help ask myself what others possibly see in this machine cause I didn't have anywhere near the same experience as they did. Now, I'm fully aware of the positive word-of-mouth and reviews for Anthem all over the place, and I'm glad some people do get joy out of these machines (a select few have even called em "game-changers"). I just shake my head at that after this trial. In my A/B comparison there is no way it tops the Denon in my room, with my speakers. In this case, there truly is a night-and-day difference. Perhaps its simple; the Anthem doesnt like my speakers? Or could it be my room, or whatever else? I dont know.

So, another disappointing reciever to match my Apex. I doubt I'll try another one for a while. The Denon is a match made in heaven in my case it seems, and like they say: if it ain't broke don't fix it. But I cant imagine there aint nothing else out there that can not only match the I experience I get with the Denon but actually up the ant. Perhaps another Denon model? And please dont get me wrong, I wasn't born a Denon Fanboy or anything, just ever since I got this receiver time and time again there hasn't been anything to win me over. I'll gladly switch to another model, as long as it brings to the table what the this one has, and then some.

To ric71 - I know you were interested in this piece but if I may say so I think you made the right choise going for the Arcam instead of this Anthem. You might have had a completely different experience than me though (would be cool if you got to test it aswell so we could compare, lol).
 

michael hoy

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RickDeg,

Have you thought about trying a Yamaha amp, it would be interesting how the Yamaha would sounf in your environment with the Pioneer and Anthem being a dissapointment.

I am not getting at you when I say this, it does sound strange that amps / receivers other people swear by dissapoint you so much.

Maybe it is just the acoustics of your room.

As i said just interested.
 

Frank Harvey

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RickyDeg said:
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
RickyDeg said:
Well, it's done - I've ordered the highly praised Anthem MRX700 for at-home-testing from my (kind) dealer. I'll be running it for about 2 weeks to see what it can do for my Apex and indeed my room with it's much-hyped ARC room correction system.

Here's to hoping it won't leave me with that same lame impression I got of the Pioneer SC-LX83 when I tested it this summer...

Having heard both in our demo rooms, I'll be interested to see what you think of it... :)

Hey David, I remember you mentioning a couple months ago your experience of the Anthem MRX700 in conjunction with Apex. It was not directly in the Anthems favour, saying the sound was "quite hard and edgy"- you still stand by that impression or has it changed? Did that set-up play with ARC engaged or without, do you know? Will post my findings as soon as I can.

Sorry Ricky, I've not been around here too much over the past few weeks, been a little busy with various things!
I do still stand by that impression. I didn't get to play about with the set up as the rep set it up for us. Looking at the results for the room EQ (which was engaged for audition), it definitely produced a more accurate in-room response, but the top end - which the Anthem doesn't alter - just sounded too forward, and I like a forward sound for my AV!
 

Frank Harvey

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Rickydeg - seeing as you like the Denon and it's Audyssey, I'd recommend you look at the top Onkyo's - the 3009 or 5009 - which use Audyssey XT32, which is far and away THE best Audyssey out there.
 

RickyDeg

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michael hoy said:
RickDeg,

Have you thought about trying a Yamaha amp, it would be interesting how the Yamaha would sounf in your environment with the Pioneer and Anthem being a dissapointment.

I am not getting at you when I say this, it does sound strange that amps / receivers other people swear by dissapoint you so much.

Maybe it is just the acoustics of your room.

As i said just interested.

Hey michael hoy, thanks for the input! Actually I been interested in testing some of the latest Yamaha-models (RX-A3010, for example) and possibly an Onkyo or Arcam model aswell. But after these two let-downs I think I'll wait a while. With my last speakersystem from KEF (before I got the Apex) I tried a Yamaha RX-V3900 and didn't find it triumph the Denon either, so that's why I was looking towards Pioneer and Anthem first. And believe me, I been scratching my head over the results I've gotten when comparing to what so many others say they experience from both those modes. But that's the way it is. It's also a question of taste. On the other hand all this testing have made me laugh at the people who claim there is little audible differences from receiver to receiver. That is so NOT true (and never has been).
 

RickyDeg

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Rickydeg - seeing as you like the Denon and it's Audyssey, I'd recommend you look at the top Onkyo's - the 3009 or 5009 - which use Audyssey XT32, which is far and away THE best Audyssey out there.

Hey David, and thanks or reading my evaluation of the Anthem! You have a good point, and indeed the new XT32 sounds alluring. Actually had the Onkyo TX-NR5009 under consideration, but I'll hold off for a while I think. I'd like to add that today I invited my dealer over (who is also a personal friend) to join me in yet another A/B comparison between my Denon AVR-3808 and the Anthem MRX700. I asked him to do the set-up procedure and ARC-measurements so I could rule out any user-mistake I might have made (which was not the case). As we sat down to listen (he knows how well the Denon performs) he too was surprised at the result. Sadly they dont run the Anthem with any Monitor Audio speakers at the dealer showroom, but when they use it with large floorstanding Paradigms it sounds pretty impressive there (cant say its necessarily 'better' than Apex with Denon though).

Another question for you - have you any experience with the brand Primare, and the SPA22 in particular?
 

gosalh

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Ive started to notice my apex sounding brighter with my denon to the point i have to use the cinema eq feature on my denon to make the treble sound softer. I havent messed around with any settings, could this be a mechanical fault? Anyone have any suggestions on what to try to make the sound warmer or what could be the problem? Im using auto configuration using XT32 but i have the crossover set to 80hz but changing this doesnt affect the warmth of the sound.
 

RickyDeg

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gosalh said:
Ive started to notice my apex sounding brighter with my denon to the point i have to use the cinema eq feature on my denon to make the treble sound softer. I havent messed around with any settings, could this be a mechanical fault? Anyone have any suggestions on what to try to make the sound warmer or what could be the problem? Im using auto configuration using XT32 but i have the crossover set to 80hz but changing this doesnt affect the warmth of the sound.

Oi, now THATS a weird occurence, gosalh. Your set of Apex must surely have been fully run-in a while ago right??? Was just thinking that if they weren't the tweeters have just now reached their full potential, and that is why you get the impression of "brightness"? Not that I feel mine a bright with my Denon, so I've not experienced this myself, and your finding sounds rather troubling.
 

gosalh

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Hey Ricky,

Thanks for the reply. You maybe right, it could be that the speakers or specifically the A40 has reached its optimum run-in. I've done about 400 hours on the system, maybe even less. Its weird that its only more noticable on DTS-HD soundtracks. When people are speaking in the Bluray movie 'Limitless' for example, it sounds very uncomfortable and bright for my ears, so i have to enable the Cinema EQ function on my Denon to soften out the treble. And this seems to be the pattern for most DTS-HD movies now. Tweeter sounds more dominant than the mid-range and subwoofer. :-(

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this?

Prologic and TrueHD sound a bit warmer.
 

RickyDeg

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gosalh said:
Hey Ricky, Thanks for the reply. You maybe right, it could be that the speakers or specifically the A40 has reached its optimum run-in. I've done about 400 hours on the system, maybe even less. Its weird that its only more noticable on DTS-HD soundtracks. When people are speaking in the Bluray movie 'Limitless' for example, it sounds very uncomfortable and bright for my ears, so i have to enable the Cinema EQ function on my Denon to soften out the treble. And this seems to be the pattern for most DTS-HD movies now. Tweeter sounds more dominant than the mid-range and subwoofer. :-( Not sure if anyone else has noticed this? Prologic and TrueHD sound a bit warmer.

Hmm, most curious! You think it could simply be the higher resolution and bit-rate of DTS HD Master Audio? Most discs are now encoded in that format so it would be unfortunate if you had to live with it, but I guess you could simply keep the Cinema EQ enabled. I should be around 400 hrs myself by now aswell, but I have not noticed any excessive brightness from my Apex. You think it could be related to a fault in the Denon?
 

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It could well be a fault with the Denon. Lucky i've got a 5 year guarantee on it lol. I may re-run my Audyssey setup again, usually cleanses the system, from what i've seen in the past. I still love my Apex, they still sound awesome regardless of the bright sound. Thanks mate
 

RickyDeg

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gosalh said:
It could well be a fault with the Denon. Lucky i've got a 5 year guarantee on it lol. I may re-run my Audyssey setup again, usually cleanses the system, from what i've seen in the past. I still love my Apex, they still sound awesome regardless of the bright sound. Thanks mate

Do that! Good luck & let us know how it turns out! I've re-run my Audyssey countless times, and also increased the number of positions as I've also found that doing the max of 8 measuringpoints definitely betters the end-result.
 

gosalh

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Will do mate.

Ricky replying to your earlier posts. Go for an Amp with Audyssey Multeq XT32. Its the best room correction product i've heard so far. Plus it would be perfect for your setup as you have two subwoofers.

The one thing i found after each Audyssey setup was that the bass was too low as it sets it at reference level and during the setup you have to turn the subwoofer volume down to an acceptable level following the on screen instructions. So Denon normally say set the subwoofer volume at the half way mark, but for XT32 you have to bring it down to get to reference level.

After my setup, i contacted Audyssey as i wasn't happy with the bass, so they advised me to increase the bass through the AV receiver's channel level (but not on the subwoofer) to get it to a level that sounds good to my ears and clean i.e. 0db. Whatever you do don't increase the subwoofer volume if the bass isnt good enough after setup, as it will start to sound unclean and generally nasty.
 

Andrew Everard

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gosalh said:
Ive started to notice my apex sounding brighter with my denon to the point i have to use the cinema eq feature on my denon to make the treble sound softer. I havent messed around with any settings, could this be a mechanical fault? Anyone have any suggestions on what to try to make the sound warmer or what could be the problem?

This just in from Monitor Audio's Alex Brady, who's been – umm – monitoring this thread:

'I've noticed that other users have expressed surprise at this comment. Now of course it could just be system matching or even be software specific but it could also be just that he's using the Apex's with grilles off and others are using them grilles on. When we voiced the range, we optimised them 'grille on', as we took a view that more customers would prefer to use the product in a discreet fashion. Its as much a personal taste thing as anything else but you will get around an extra 1dB on the top end with the grille off.

I couldn't see in any of the threads if he uses grilles or not but that may solve his problem if he isn't. Hope that helps.'
 

RickyDeg

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Andrew Everard said:
gosalh said:
Ive started to notice my apex sounding brighter with my denon to the point i have to use the cinema eq feature on my denon to make the treble sound softer. I havent messed around with any settings, could this be a mechanical fault? Anyone have any suggestions on what to try to make the sound warmer or what could be the problem?

This just in from Monitor Audio's Alex Brady, who's been – umm – monitoring this thread:

'I've noticed that other users have expressed surprise at this comment. Now of course it could just be system matching or even be software specific but it could also be just that he's using the Apex's with grilles off and others are using them grilles on. When we voiced the range, we optimised them 'grille on', as we took a view that more customers would prefer to use the product in a discreet fashion. Its as much a personal taste thing as anything else but you will get around an extra 1dB on the top end with the grille off.

I couldn't see in any of the threads if he uses grilles or not but that may solve his problem if he isn't. Hope that helps.'

I'm certain gosalh will be interested in hearing this! Very interesting information from Mr Alex Brady. Thanks for posting this Andrew. Much appreciated. As for me, I've always been lead to think that 'grilles are OFF' for optimal sound, and normally I prefer speakers "naked". I'm not having any excessive brightness issues at all and I've never used Apex with the grilles.
 

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I always use grilles on. I took the grilles off and tested and the brightness sounded more obvious at the time. I've never had a problem with the superb sounding Denon A-100 and there's been no software update to it for a very long time. So not sure what has changed recently.
 

Frank Harvey

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Of course, to counteract this 1dB HF lift, the user could always reduce HF on their AV receiver by 1dB. Regardless of the settings the AV receiver's room EQ circuitry sets, they can be tweaked by the user. If you want more treble, raise it. If you want less bass, lower it. There are no hard and fast rules here, everything can be set to your own personal preference :)
 

gosalh

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Yeah sure i understand that. The point i was trying to make in my first post was that my setup has been working wonderfully since the initial setup and i couldn't be happier, but all for a sudden it sounds different to how i am normally used to hearing it. Nothing has been changed, no settings have changed, on software updates etc.

But its very obvious to me that something has changed, to the point it feels uncomfortable to listen to HF, but the Cinema EQ helps a bit without messing around with anything else.
 

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