Sugden A21SE Finally!

[plastic penguin]

Sorry guys was going to reply today, but never got round to it. Mainly due to it being not entirely positive. I don't no what I was expecting but it does not seem a huge improvement. It's very powerful no problem there, I thought the bass a little fuller it might have a little more harmonic content but that's it. Build and looks are fantastic. So I may get some Harbeth P3 on eBay at the moment and see if things change between the two amps then, and decide which one to sell. Just shows what a cracking amp the Pulse is?

It could be a synergy thing. I wouldn't have put Sugden and PMC as natural soul mates, in the same way Proac and Harbeth would be (and apparently Pulse + PMC).

Sometimes a different sound takes a while to appreciate.....and somtimes you just prefer what you had. My advice is to hear the Sugden with Proac and Harbeth, before passing judgement.....but always go with what gives you the most enjoyment.

This is the problem: I can't pass judgement on the Sugden anymore than you can with PMC 'i's, but I would guess, from what I've read on here, the tonal qualities of the DB1i would be a good match for the Sugden: A crisp top end and fairly smooth midrange. As you and I know this game is strange and not everything is that black and white.

However, I would hate to see Boggit buy a pair of speakers only to find they make little or no difference.

 

[plastic penguin]

I would say you need to give it time. It has only been a couple of days and it can take a few days just to get familiar with the different sound.

As regards synergy -- yes I'm sure that could be a part of it, but I would guess the synergy not too bad at all.

Also, if you were expecting night and day differences then this could be where the issue is. Unless you go from a, let's say, a £300 amp to a £3k example, then the uplift is generally subtle. This is why I am so reluctant to change the Pulse, fearing any amp in my price bracket won't give me a big enough difference I need.

Above all else, the Pulse is a shiny cookie.

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry guys was going to reply today, but never got round to it. Mainly due to it being not entirely positive. I don't no what I was expecting but it does not seem a huge improvement. It's very powerful no problem there, I thought the bass a little fuller it might have a little more harmonic content but that's it. Build and looks are fantastic. So I may get some Harbeth P3 on eBay at the moment and see if things change between the two amps then, and decide which one to sell. Just shows what a cracking amp the Pulse is?

It could be a synergy thing. I wouldn't have put Sugden and PMC as natural soul mates, in the same way Proac and Harbeth would be (and apparently Pulse + PMC).

Sometimes a different sound takes a while to appreciate.....and somtimes you just prefer what you had. My advice is to hear the Sugden with Proac and Harbeth, before passing judgement.....but always go with what gives you the most enjoyment.

This is the problem: I can't pass judgement on the Sugden anymore than you can with PMC 'i's, but I would guess, from what I've read on here, the tonal qualities of the DB1i would be a good match for the Sugden: A crisp top end and fairly smooth midrange. As you and I know this game is strange and not everything is that black and white.

However, I would hate to see Boggit buy a pair of speakers only to find they make little or no difference.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make, is that for the Sugden to (possibly) outlass the Pulse, it needs the best match possible with the speakers......and even then, it will be with a different presentation, by excelling at certain genres of music.

 

[chebby]

It tells me that the differences between good amps, at a similar price, are very small. (Whatever their 'class' or topology.)

 

[plastic penguin]

It tells me that the differences between good amps, at a similar price, are very small. (Whatever their 'class' or topology.)

That's possibly true, although with the normal retail price of Sugden A21SE version at around £2400 and the Pulse retailed at £1250-£1280 ish, I'd hardly call that similar price.

 

[chebby]

It tells me that the differences between good amps, at a similar price, are very small. (Whatever their 'class' or topology.)

That's possibly true, although with the normal retail price of Sugden A21SE version at around £2400 and the Pulse retailed at £1250-£1280 ish, I'd hardly call that similar price.

Then it reinforces the point even more that the differences between good amps are very small. (A point that Alan Shaw of Harbeth* is always making when questioned about the 'best' amps for his speakers.)

Example.

*Since Harbeth speakers were mentioned as the next option.

 

[plastic penguin]

It tells me that the differences between good amps, at a similar price, are very small. (Whatever their 'class' or topology.)

That's possibly true, although with the normal retail price of Sugden A21SE version at around £2400 and the Pulse retailed at £1250-£1280 ish, I'd hardly call that similar price.

Then it reinforces the point even more that the differences between good amps are very small. (A point that Alan Shaw of Harbeth* is always making when questioned about the 'best' amps for his speakers.)

Example.

*Since Harbeth speakers were mentioned as the next option.

Interesting read, although unsure what he means by "are we now in a post-Naim era?". I'm assuming he either uses Sudgens (again) or a another brand.

 

[plastic penguin]

It tells me that the differences between good amps, at a similar price, are very small. (Whatever their 'class' or topology.)

That's possibly true, although with the normal retail price of Sugden A21SE version at around £2400 and the Pulse retailed at £1250-£1280 ish, I'd hardly call that similar price.

*Since Harbeth speakers were mentioned as the next option.

Not really sure if that is important when your system is isolated in a normal living room. Neat say Naims are tested (or t'other way round), as are Focals now... Arcam used to test their amps with MAs, but Monitor Audio now suggest using Cyrus and Leema* over Arcam... PMC always recommend Bryston, but the popular choice appears to be Naim.

*This is what MA told me when I phoned them about 18 months ago.

 

[chebby]

Interesting read, although unsure what he means by "post-Naim era". I'm assuming he either uses Sudgens (again) or a another brand.

He is not talking about what he personally uses but the 'trends' on the HUG for amp recommendations from it's users over the years. He observes that they have swung from Sugden to Naim and not that he personally uses or endorses either.

It's on record that he developed some of his speakers with the use of 100 Watt Quad amps from the 1980s (44/405 possibly) but I have never seen him endorse any particular manufacturer.

He does endorse stable, well designed amps that measure straight across the audible frequencies with very little measurable distortion. He endorses amps made by companies who have the resources to support and service their products over a long period of time. He endorses using appropriately powered amplifiers that are used (and behave well) within their specified parameters and are chosen sensibly for the size of room, musical content and volume requirements of the listener.

 

[matt49]

One problem I have with Alan Shaw (and I'm a big fan of Harbeth speakers) is trying to square his view that amp clipping is at epidemic proportions (e.g. http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2113-Amplifier-clipping-an-epidemic) with the amp power recommendations on the Harbeth web pages: for instance the SHL5 "works with a wide range of amplifiers, ideally from 25W/channel" (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=superhl5&model=Super%20HL5).

Of course, from a marketing point of view it makes perfect sense to say that Harbeth speakers work well with any amps ...

 

[chebby]

One problem I have with Alan Shaw (and I'm a big fan of Harbeth speakers) is trying to square his view that amp clipping is at epidemic proportions (e.g. http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2113-Amplifier-clipping-an-epidemic) with the amp power recommendations on the Harbeth web pages: for instance the SHL5 "works with a wide range of amplifiers, ideally from 25W/channel" (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=superhl5&model=Super%20HL5).

Of course, from a marketing point of view it makes perfect sense to say that Harbeth speakers work well with any amps ...

There are going to be some people who partner their Harbeths with 25Watt class A amplifiers (valve or SS) for instance and who don't need any more because they play music at moderate levels in smaller rooms.

It's all about using the amp/speakers within their performance 'envelope' (his word I think) and choosing both appropriately.

There are quite a few people successfully using Naim UnitiQutes (30 Watts?) with P3ESRs. I doubt they expect to get concert levels of volume in large rooms. (They'd be a bit deluded if they did.)

 

[plastic penguin]

In my defence though, I have constantly mentioned about the small differences between amps. I even mentioned this as a response to Boggit on the previous page where I wrote: "Also, if you were expecting night and day differences then this could be where the issue is."

I've often banged on about managing expectations of any component, and I think this is where Boggit maybe tripping up a little. So there my views chimes mainly with yours and Alans.

 

[matt49]

There are going to be some people who partner their Harbeths with 25Watt class A amplifiers (valve or SS) for instance and who don't need any more because they play music at moderate levels in smaller rooms.

It's all about using the amp/speakers within their performance 'envelope' (his word I think) and choosing both appropriately.

There are quite a few people successfully using Naim UnitiQutes (30 Watts?) with P3ESRs. I doubt they expect to get concert levels of volume in large rooms. (They'd be a bit deluded if they did.)

Agreed.

My next quibble will be that stated power output is far too narrow a specification of an amp's performance envelope. For instance, we also need to know about peak power output and impedance curve handling.

AS has repeatedly said he doesn't want his website swamped with discussion of other manufacturer's products. From a marketing point of view that's entirely understandable: the website exists to promote knowledge of the Harbeth brand and its 'philosophy'. But I can't see that he offers a sufficient technical justification for not wanting people to discuss amps.

 

[sa2013]

Then it reinforces the point even more that the differences between good amps are very small. (A point that Alan Shaw of Harbeth* is always making when questioned about the 'best' amps for his speakers.)

Example.

*Since Harbeth speakers were mentioned as the next option.

Just had a read of that thread, interesting. I was having similar thoughts after listening to two similarly priced amplifiers from different manufactures and not being able to hear any difference.

BTW this guy Alan is hilarious, but probably not very popular amongst sales / marketing people

 

[iQ Speakers]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

 

[plastic penguin]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

I still say play with the Sugden for the next week or two before deciding A) To upgrade the speakers and B) whether the Sugden will be a permanent feature.

TBH, I'm hoping the Sugden is right for you otherwise there could be a lot of additional money spent and not feeling totally satisfied.

Good luck and keep us all informed.

 

[iceman16]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

When assessing the Sugden, listen for things like the timbre of violins, piano and sopranos, the realism and emotion conveyed by the musicians and the breathy nature of woodwind. These are subtle things, that when you get used to, are very hard to give up. In fact, it is only when you switch back to what you had, that you realize that you are missing them.

Some amps give analytical clarity, some seismic bass, some huge dynamics.....and some have a way of getting under the skin of the musicians by conveying their emotion and intentions. Sugden does the latter, which on first hearing, is not always that impressive (compared to the other traits that I've mentioned)...unless you are actively looking for it. When you then match that with speakers that major on the same thing, what you get is a very addictive and emotive listening experience.

I will make a small bet, that once you have got fully attuned to what you have (possibly with different speakers), you will start to find other amps sound a bit unrefined and uninvolving. I suspect all those who have loved their Sugdens (or similar) know exactly what I'm on about.

Also, don't forget the impact of a good source can have, which can make or break a system like you have.....so it's often worth borrowing a good CDP (possibly Electro/Sugden/Pathos) to see if that brings the whole thing into focus. Remember, your amp and speakers are pretty revealing.

Can't agree more Cno..

When I first listened to the AMS(which replaced the Naims), the presentation is quite different from what Im used to. I thought Im missing something compared to the Naims( forwardness, snap etc.) But after a while there's the grin on my face and something captured my attention. The holographic, warmth and fluidity of the AMS which the Naims can't quite deliver. I suggest to the OP to listen to the Sugden for a couple more days and play some music which you are familiar with.

 

[CnoEvil]

Can't agree more Cno..

When I first listened to the AMS(which replaced the Naims), the presentation is quite different from what Im used to. I thought Im missing something compared to the Naims( forwardness, snap etc.) But after a while there's the grin on my face and something captured my attention. The holographic, warmth and fluidity of the AMS which the Naims can't quite deliver. I suggest to the OP to listen to the Sugden for a couple more days and play some music which you are familiar with.

I suppose, that simply put....Listen to what the musicians are doing and not what the hifi is doing. It's a simple, but fundamental shift of focus.

 

[Macspur]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

When assessing the Sugden, listen for things like the timbre of violins, piano and sopranos, the realism and emotion conveyed by the musicians and the breathy nature of woodwind. These are subtle things, that when you get used to, are very hard to give up. In fact, it is only when you switch back to what you had, that you realize that you are missing them.

Some amps give analytical clarity, some seismic bass, some huge dynamics.....and some have a way of getting under the skin of the musicians by conveying their emotion and intentions. Sugden does the latter, which on first hearing, is not always that impressive (compared to the other traits that I've mentioned)...unless you are actively looking for it. When you then match that with speakers that major on the same thing, what you get is a very addictive and emotive listening experience.

I will make a small bet, that once you have got fully attuned to what you have (possibly with different speakers), you will start to find other amps sound a bit unrefined and uninvolving. I suspect all those who have loved their Sugdens (or similar) know exactly what I'm on about.

Also, don't forget the impact of a good source can have, which can make or break a system like you have.....so it's often worth borrowing a good CDP (possibly Electro/Sugden/Pathos) to see if that brings the whole thing into focus. Remember, your amp and speakers are pretty revealing.

Words of wisdom from the Sage one as ever.

Smiley

Mac

www.macsmusic.blgbubble.net

 

[CnoEvil]

Words of wisdom from the Sage one as ever.

Smiley

Mac

www.macsmusic.blgbubble.net

I'm afraid I do waffle on a bit! *biggrin*

 

[Macspur]

Words of wisdom from the Sage one as ever.

Smiley

Mac

www.macsmusic.blgbubble.net

I'm afraid I do waffle on a bit! *biggrin*

Not at all and it's never boring.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[CnoEvil]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

When assessing the Sugden, listen for things like the timbre of violins, piano and sopranos, the realism and emotion conveyed by the musicians and the breathy nature of woodwind. These are subtle things, that when you get used to, are very hard to give up. In fact, it is only when you switch back to what you had, that you realize that you are missing them.

Some amps give analytical clarity, some seismic bass, some huge dynamics.....and some have a way of getting under the skin of the musicians by conveying their emotion and intentions. Sugden does the latter, which on first hearing, is not always that impressive (compared to the other traits that I've mentioned)...unless you are actively looking for it. When you then match that with speakers that major on the same thing, what you get is a very addictive, seductive and emotive listening experience.

I will make a small bet, that once you have got fully attuned to what you have (possibly with different speakers), you will start to find other amps sound a bit unrefined and uninvolving. I suspect all those who have loved their Sugdens (or similar) know exactly what I'm on about.

Also, don't forget the impact of a good source can have, which can make or break a system like you have.....so it's often worth borrowing a good CDP (possibly Electro/Sugden/Pathos) to see if that brings the whole thing into focus. Remember, your amp and speakers are pretty revealing.

 

[plastic penguin]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

Some amps give analytical clarity, some seismic bass, some huge dynamics.....and some have a way of getting under the skin of the musicians by conveying their emotion and intentions. Sugden does the latter, which on first hearing, is not always that impressive (compared to the other traits that I've mentioned)...unless you are actively looking for it. When you then match that with speakers that major on the same thing, what you get is a very addictive, seductive and emotive listening experience.

...you will start to find other amps sound a bit unrefined and uninvolving. I suspect all those who have loved their Sugdens (or similar) know exactly what I'm on about.

Also, don't forget the impact of a good source can have, which can make or break a system like you have.....so it's often worth borrowing a good CDP (possibly Electro/Sugden/Pathos) to see if that brings the whole thing into focus. Remember, your amp and speakers are pretty revealing.

I am arguably one of the foremost owners of the Pulse on this forum, having heard God knows how many integrated amps over countless years... and read numerous reviews on the Leema. Now while I admit and hold my hands aloft in appreciation of the Sugden's ability beyond the Pulse, I do get a little frustrated that you assume the Pulse to be relatively sterile or uninvolving or unrefined.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread the Pulse is unique in its price catagory, in that, contrary to reviews, it doesn't demonstrate a lack of refinement, analytical clarity, seismic bass, but does have an uncanny way to engauge the listener.

The OP spent around £1200 on the Pulse and PMCs, but now you and others (Class A fans by the look of it) are suggesting Harbeth (a good shout) and a better source. Even if he goes s/hand, with the £1600 cost of the Sugden (That's around the same as my amp, CDP and speakers), I doubt he'll have much change from 3k +. Unless you are getting a hefty upgrade that's sounds a lot of sheckles.

Anytime you come to London you're more than welcome to see and hear what the Pulse can do -- and I'll cook you some wonderful grub. (I know you've heard the Pulse firing a pair of Focals, TB2is are a different animal altogether. Never know, you might actually like it. *wink*)

 

[plastic penguin]

You are right i did expect a big jump in performance. Which may be more prounounced if i upgrade speakers. The Leema may not shine as well, though this i doubt. Reading old reviews of the Pulse it mentions pace and its ability with voices somthing the Sugden is renound for.

However there are other considerations when buying products, its looks, build, residule values and other intangiable factors like pride of ownership its history etc somthing the Sugden has in spades. I doubt you will see it replaced with the Sugden A21 mi SE or A22SE and the A21 sold off at £1000 off RRP.

I'm still happy with my decision to buy one, but felt I should be honest about my findings. I suspect i would of found the same had i bought a Electrocompaniet.

When assessing the Sugden, listen for things like the timbre of violins, piano and sopranos, the realism and emotion conveyed by the musicians and the breathy nature of woodwind. These are subtle things, that when you get used to, are very hard to give up. In fact, it is only when you switch back to what you had, that you realize that you are missing them.

Some amps give analytical clarity, some seismic bass, some huge dynamics.....and some have a way of getting under the skin of the musicians by conveying their emotion and intentions. Sugden does the latter, which on first hearing, is not always that impressive (compared to the other traits that I've mentioned)...unless you are actively looking for it. When you then match that with speakers that major on the same thing, what you get is a very addictive and emotive listening experience.

I will make a small bet, that once you have got fully attuned to what you have (possibly with different speakers), you will start to find other amps sound a bit unrefined and uninvolving. I suspect all those who have loved their Sugdens (or similar) know exactly what I'm on about.

Also, don't forget the impact of a good source can have, which can make or break a system like you have.....so it's often worth borrowing a good CDP (possibly Electro/Sugden/Pathos) to see if that brings the whole thing into focus. Remember, your amp and speakers are pretty revealing.

Can't agree more Cno..

When I first listened to the AMS(which replaced the Naims), the presentation is quite different from what Im used to. I thought Im missing something compared to the Naims( forwardness, snap etc.) But after a while there's the grin on my face and something captured my attention. The holographic, warmth and fluidity of the AMS which the Naims can't quite deliver. I suggest to the OP to listen to the Sugden for a couple more days and play some music which you are familiar with.

With respect I would say that Naim and Focal wasn't the best synergy. This is where IMHO the MF and Focal shine.

I would suggest that your old Naims would sound far better with a change of speaker, even though I'm a huge Focal fan, the likes of PMC and Neats or Totems would've given you a very different impression.

 

[plastic penguin]

Sorry Cno, I was just blowing off some pent-up frustration. I don't doubt for one moment the Sudgen is better... the point I was really making was just because the Pulse isn't a Class A, it doesn't automatically mean it'll sound analytical or unrefined.

I've had the Pulse since 2010, and have to admit my one will sound slightly different to other Pulses because Leema souped it up when I had the headphone problem: They changed some of the circuitry and all the earthing with the MKIII configuration. Haven't heard the MKIII but while having a conversation with the chaps from Leema at the time its leanings is more towards the MKIII than the original MKI, resulting in a little more clarity and overall oomph. I would guess, though, these differences are pretty subtle.

In addition I've heard the Leema with loads of different speakers over the 4-years and yet to hear it sound less than very good. A versatile amp.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. Enough spouting.