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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
p_m_brown said:CnoEvil said:
Can't imagine it is anywhere near as good as a laptop and some AVIs though...
It's just a matter of time until every other manufacturer flies a white flag and surrenders.
matt49
Well-known member
steve_1979 said:
Steve, I know you are passionate about fighting "foo", but there's no need to SHOUT.
You can improve the SQ of a streamer by addressing noise (chiefly from the PSU) and jitter (which has several origins, some negligible, some not).
These effects are measurable.
Matt
I have a Stream X2 and a Mac mini using Audirvana Plus.
The Stream X2 can be switched on quickly, controlled via an app. You can browse, stop and play at the whim of your index finger.
The Mac mini sounds just as good. I can use the Remote app to control I-Tunes just as I would to control the streamer. But I have to sign into the Mac mini (or leave it on / sleeping). The Mac mini has to be connected to a monitor if you don't have a tablet device. The Mac mini is often getting up to other things like back-ups, software updates.
The purist in me says the streamer is best.
Both options need a decent DAC.
The Stream X2 can be switched on quickly, controlled via an app. You can browse, stop and play at the whim of your index finger.
The Mac mini sounds just as good. I can use the Remote app to control I-Tunes just as I would to control the streamer. But I have to sign into the Mac mini (or leave it on / sleeping). The Mac mini has to be connected to a monitor if you don't have a tablet device. The Mac mini is often getting up to other things like back-ups, software updates.
The purist in me says the streamer is best.
Both options need a decent DAC.
I think big ticket streamers are a rip off, although it doesn't suprise me at all that some of them cost what they do. That's the hifi market for you. Bit perfect streams are easy to achieve, jitter can be reduced way below audible levels by any decent dac.
By decent dac, I mean something that has a variety of digital transports in mind in its design - if it needs a very low jitter transport to sound good I wouldn't consider it. The only dac I've personally heard that seemed jitter sensitive was a Cyrus dac-xp - sounded good with the matching CD transport, sounded like a cat being sick with my Mac mini.
By decent dac, I mean something that has a variety of digital transports in mind in its design - if it needs a very low jitter transport to sound good I wouldn't consider it. The only dac I've personally heard that seemed jitter sensitive was a Cyrus dac-xp - sounded good with the matching CD transport, sounded like a cat being sick with my Mac mini.
manicm
Well-known member
cheeseboy said:
As far as I can tell, it is not clear whether any streamers use Linux, or Windows or Unix blah blah blah - it's meaningless if they do or don't. And Linn's streamers are decidedly different from all others in that it commands the media server to push the data towards it, whereas the others pull the data from the media servers.
To simply equate streamers as PCs without external interfaces is patently rubbish - because this would be true of any electronic device. You just equate them for your own expediency. Companies like Naim have written specialised streaming software for their products. The most expensive Alienware and DAC pairing would not contain this.
And if you want to play hi-res audio the PC is the pits, because you have to manually fiddle with the settings to change back and forth. Oh there is software to automate this but you'll pay through the nose for it.
Also, would you also equate Cyrus's Stream X streamer as a PC? It has no DAC, no preamplifier, so what would you describe it as? According to all detractors' logic here modern amplifiers would also qualify as just 'stripped down PCs'.
NAD to all their fanboys offer great VFM, yet in their new digital range they reserved streaming for their more expensive amplifier. The D 3020 offers only poor old Bluetooth which even in AptX guise will not be the best in audio quality. And even the more expensive model handles only the half-fat 24/96 format for streaming. And it doesn't just come down to the DAC cost - as LG have proven with their new phone, and as WHF's review has proven it's not just the DAC that dictates quality.
Streamers also offer the convenience of dedicated remote controls. Yes this can be achieved via PC but again it's a pain. My main beef is just with those who summarily dismiss good streamers as offering no value whatsoever, when they clearly do for many people.
manicm said:
Can you expand on what you mean by Pushing data towards instead of pulling? You might say blah blah as to what it's running, but thae fact that it is running linux/windows inherently means it's a pc as it has to deal with networking protocols etc. These are usually embedded versions of the software stripped down and tailored to whatever people want them to do.
manicm said:
no, it's just a fact...
manicm said:
erm no, my amplifier is an electronic device but isn't a pc. Methinks you are trying to make everything absolute.
manicm said:
What has alienware got to do with naim? What do you think studois use to record albums on? Are you saying they should all be using hifi equipment?
manicm said:
That's just not true. You can load up windows, load say fubar and tell it to select your dac your output device and you're golden. Foobar is free.
manicm said:
yes it is as it has to deal with networks, codecs etc...
manicm said:
quite frankly, I don't listen to anything what hi fi have to say in the digital area as they like to apply outdated analogue stereo thinking in to the digital word.
manicm said:
It's not a pain anymore if you can use the tied in apps for some bits of software. But yes, if people want a standalone box and a dedicated remote then a standalone streamer is the way to go. However you can't have it both ways and have a go at people who dismiss streamers, then go and dismiss pc's as source, it;s just makes you a hypocrite.
CnoEvil said:
Yes, but how will we cope with a global audio industry with a total output of five pairs of speakers knocked together every now and then when the manufacturer isn't too playing with old cars and chuntering on like a retired colonel about how things were better when we had an empire? :rofl:
Tacty
Well-known member
Tacty
Well-known member
manicm said:
This sentence alone shows how much you are letting the PR gibberish pull wool over your eyes. As anyone with any knowledge of networking protocols knows, that sentence is utter and total gibberish.
No. Streamers have CPUs in them (usually as part of a "System on a Chip" or SoC design). This makes them computers, unlike many other electronic devices such as a traditional analogue amp. This is a fact, and not in any way detracting from what streamers are. The value of streamers is in that they are specialized SoCs. As a result they are lot more energy efficient (dissipating less heat!) than a full-fledged generic PC. Consequently, you can build them in them a smallish box with only passive cooling, which can be safely put in to a cabinet with the rest of the hifi kit.
I think streamers offer lots of value over playback through a PC, most in terms of convenience. I love sitting on my couch browsing with my laptop while my streamer (which I can control from said laptop, or from my phone) plays music on my hifi set.
However, if you are going to connect the streamer through an external DAC, there is no reason for it to cost thousands of GBP. The essential components cost a fraction of that. (A fully functional SoC streamer can be bought for 200 quid max.) Add a well engineered case and well-designed remote user interface, and I don't see ANY reason for a price tag over 1000 quid. (And I just love the people on here regurgitating the PR smoke that was blown up their ass, and violent defence of the ones that do.)
Tacty
Well-known member
TimothyRias said:
hm, i'm doing it just like that with mine pc and ipad...you have a choice of almost countless music players on pc and dedicated remote control apps on both ios and android. and since i'm using foobar and foobar remotes i can choose whether i play music from library or directly from mine music folders on nas/external hard drive...and it plays every music format unlike dedicated streamers...
BigH
Well-known member
Tacty said:
I wouldn't be able to do this with a PC, because I have no space near my HiFi kit to house a full-fledged PC, and that is sort of the point os streamers. There very compactly built and energy efficient PCs. This can come at some cost of versatility (as you say). Although that is debatable my streamer is essentially a smallbox running linux with an MPD server running. It currently plays most (of not all) file formats, and getting it to run new ones is as simple as updating MPD.(The only possible exception is proprietary file formats which require a licensing fee to playback, but that problem als exists for other free PC music players.)
In other words, sure you can build a dedicated streamer from normal PC components. The difference with a prebuild dedicated streamer becomes very small though. (The PC option will give you slightly more control over what software is running, while the prebuild option is likely to use less energy, produce less heat and boot faster.)
TimothyRias said:
well you can build a streamer out of a raspberry pi, so that kind of thows the size argument out of the window
Plus the new intel NUC units are tiny as well.But in general, yes, a dedicated streamer out of the box will probably consume a lot less power etc...
Tacty
Well-known member
i'm using netbook as mine pc streamer, and as far as space is considered, you cant get much smaller and you have 10" screen just in case...just look at the prices of dedicated streamers with such screen real estate...i still dont get it why netbooks met with such hatred...at least for audio purposes...and it can works on battery, which is a big thing for many audio freaks :clap: on paper, it looks like almost ideal solution for pc audio...
p.s. and it can run linux too...
p.s. and it can run linux too...
The_Lhc
Well-known member
Tacty said:
You still have to build it and configure it all yourself. For less than the cost of most netbooks I have a three inch square streamer that I forget is even there and plays all the formats I want (it doesn't play drm-apple formats but I don't have any apple format music anyway). It doesn't need a screen because that's in my hand, I just press play and that's it, I don't need to worry about configuring drivers or using a particular piece of software to get bit-perfect output and all that jazz. It couldn't get any easier.
Surely this is about choices, some people like to DIY with a PC software etc People with the knowledge and interest.
Others want a simple solution that they don’t need to research out loads of software etc.
Strange thing is we don’t use our PC with an external DAC as a CD player do we?
What about all the people who have not grown up with PC’s? All the streamer options and marketing “bull” must be a nightmare
Others want a simple solution that they don’t need to research out loads of software etc.
Strange thing is we don’t use our PC with an external DAC as a CD player do we?
What about all the people who have not grown up with PC’s? All the streamer options and marketing “bull” must be a nightmare
Tacty
Well-known member
The_Lhc said:
cmon...i dont have to build anything, it comes with operating system, and all i should do is to choose usb dac in sound properties...and asio in foobar...5 minutes tops...if someone has a problem with such a simple operation chances are they belong in the group 'how to set up mine vcr for recording', and they will certainly have problems with anything, be it microwave or dedicated network player...
Tacty said:
Yes that is a valid option. It is nearly twice as expensive as it needs to be though. (The cheapest streamer boxes retail for about 150 euro, cheapest netbooks around 300.)
Without substantial tweaking the netbook also will not work perfectly running 24/7. Wake-on LAN is probably not properly configured, so the thing will have to keep awake all the time. It will still use more power than the dedicated box. Windows update will require periodic reboots etc. Since this is a PC you can work around these things. (For example installing some light weight linux distribution with suitable software.) But this requires some work.
interesting thread.
I see the bulk of dispute revolves around functionality and ease of use. but what about actual audio performance? can any steamer supporter tell me how can a networked streamer offer a more reliable link to music data, since they rely on the network throughput, than a PC running RAM playback supporting software (like JPlay or JRiver) through an ASIO or KS driver all fed from an SSD internal drive, or at the very least a Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 enabled external one? I really can't see what sonic advantages a dedicated streamer might have over a dedicated music playback PC.
I see the bulk of dispute revolves around functionality and ease of use. but what about actual audio performance? can any steamer supporter tell me how can a networked streamer offer a more reliable link to music data, since they rely on the network throughput, than a PC running RAM playback supporting software (like JPlay or JRiver) through an ASIO or KS driver all fed from an SSD internal drive, or at the very least a Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 enabled external one? I really can't see what sonic advantages a dedicated streamer might have over a dedicated music playback PC.
Not sure if I replied here already (the memory's the first thing to go I hear...), however, I use the Onkyo as the point by which everything is routed. Music storage is on a 1TB Western Digital external HDD, a 2TB one would be my next purchase as a backup. The cost of that is now cheaper than the 1TB one was a couple of years ago! WD also do the MyBook NAS which is pretty much the same thing just attached to the network. The hard drive connects to the rear USB port on the 818 and the contents are displayed on the TV if I want to see the full listing more easily, or I can scroll through on the Onkyo's front panel readout.
Anything else - the ATV3, or the PS3 - goes through the TV and thereon to the 818 afterwards. Connectivity to the network is via Devolo Homeplugs which are an excellent solution.
Most of my music playback however is via CD. I occasionally use the HDD, but sound quality off the Arcam player works a treat.
Anything else - the ATV3, or the PS3 - goes through the TV and thereon to the 818 afterwards. Connectivity to the network is via Devolo Homeplugs which are an excellent solution.
Most of my music playback however is via CD. I occasionally use the HDD, but sound quality off the Arcam player works a treat.
oldric_naubhoff said:
It can't basically. Like I've said, a pc and streamer are bascially the same thing. It's all down to how you want to use it and what you want to use it for that would make you chose one over the other.
oldric_naubhoff said:
In properly configured wired network, data stream reliability is a non-issue. And since it is dedicated hardware there is no other processes competing for hard drive access. (Which is the (potential) problem RAM playback software on a PC is trying to solve.)
In short, both PCs and streamers are more than adequately equipped to feed a stable data stream to the DAC. If configured properly, both should be feeding exactly the same bit-stream to the DAC, and there is basically no difference in SQ.
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