Streamers - What is the point?

[CnoEvil]

Beware, it is not quite that straightforward.

IME. This statement appllies to most things hifi, despite what some people may say.

 

[inbox4]

Thanks to all who have contributed. This has been a very interesting thread.

I was particularly interested in the comments about computers being more complicated in terms of settings adjustment and also the BitPerfect software.

My experience of streaming with my MacBook Air has been the definition of simplicity. The first time I ever connected the computer I selected my DAC in the audio output settings and set the '2ch - 24 bit Integer' to 192000.0 Hz. That was it. I've never had to do it since. These settings have been retained and it sounds great!

Can anyone explain how with these settings I wouldn't be getting a bit perfect stream to my DAC and what benefit BItPerfect software would offer?

 

[TimothyRias]

My experience of streaming with my MacBook Air has been the definition of simplicity. The first time I ever connected the computer I selected my DAC in the audio output settings and set the '2ch - 24 bit Integer' to 192000.0 Hz. That was it. I've never had to do it since. These settings have been retained and it sounds great!

Can anyone explain how with these settings I wouldn't be getting a bit perfect stream to my DAC and what benefit BItPerfect software would offer?

With those settings you will only get a bit-perfect stream if the file played back is 2 channel/24bit/192kHz. For anything else the system will remix/resample it resulting in a bit-stream that does not exactly match the the source file.

Is this bad?

Not necessarily. With decent interpolation resampling, from 44.1 kHz (CD quality) to 192 kHz should give quite good results. I would be very surprised if anyone could pick out the difference. (And if they can, it is not unimaginable that the upsampled stream sounds slightly better due to smoothing out digitization artifacts in the source.)

The more problematic case of resampling is where (as in many machines by default) a 44.1 kHz stream is resampled to 48 kHz, which can lead to audible conversion artifacts. (especially with high speed interpolators that trade quality for speed).

 

[inbox4]

TimothyRias - thank you very much, that makes perfect sense.

I had wrongly assumed that the setting meant the computer would correctly play anything up to 192KHz files.

What settings would you recommend for a bit perfect stream of Spotify (Premium)?

Everyone - what are the best sounding 24/192 albums in your experiences? I was reading about it at the weekend and it seems dynamic range/ sound quality varies as much if not more in this format than others.

I would like to find an absolutely cracker of a recording just to hear how good things can sound when the stars align and everything is mastered perfectly etc...

 

[cheeseboy]

With those settings you will only get a bit-perfect stream if the file played back is 2 channel/24bit/192kHz. For anything else the system will remix/resample it resulting in a bit-stream that does not exactly match the the source file.

depends on the soundcard or dac you use as well. If it supports 24bit 192khz it won't have to re-sample.

 

[cheeseboy]

What settings would you recommend for a bit perfect stream of Spotify (Premium)?

shouldn't really matter as spotify premium is compressed at 320kps anyways iirc.

 

[TimothyRias]

With those settings you will only get a bit-perfect stream if the file played back is 2 channel/24bit/192kHz. For anything else the system will remix/resample it resulting in a bit-stream that does not exactly match the the source file.

depends on the soundcard or dac you use as well. If it supports 24bit 192khz it won't have to re-sample.

Not sure how you view a soundcard outputting a 44.1kHz file at 192kHz without resampling. (You probably misread what I said.)

 

[cheeseboy]

With those settings you will only get a bit-perfect stream if the file played back is 2 channel/24bit/192kHz. For anything else the system will remix/resample it resulting in a bit-stream that does not exactly match the the source file.

depends on the soundcard or dac you use as well. If it supports 24bit 192khz it won't have to re-sample.

Not sure how a you view a soundcard outputting a 44.1kHz file at 192kHz without resampling. (You probably misread what I said.)

yep totally did

What I meant was still the same though, IE it won't need to resample if it supports the rate that it's in. (probably makes no sense but I think you know what I mean)

 

[inbox4]

My experience of streaming with my MacBook Air has been the definition of simplicity. The first time I ever connected the computer I selected my DAC in the audio output settings and set the '2ch - 24 bit Integer' to 192000.0 Hz. That was it. I've never had to do it since. These settings have been retained and it sounds great!

Can anyone explain how with these settings I wouldn't be getting a bit perfect stream to my DAC and what benefit BItPerfect software would offer?

With those settings you will only get a bit-perfect stream if the file played back is 2 channel/24bit/192kHz. For anything else the system will remix/resample it resulting in a bit-stream that does not exactly match the the source file.

Is this bad?

Not necessarily. With decent interpolation resampling, from 44.1 kHz (CD quality) to 192 kHz should give quite good results. I would be very surprised if anyone could pick out the difference. (And if they can, it is not unimaginable that the upsampled stream sounds slightly better due to smoothing out digitization artifacts in the source.)

The more problematic case of resampling is where (as in many machines by default) a 44.1 kHz stream is resampled to 48 kHz, which can lead to audible conversion artifacts. (especially with high speed interpolators that trade quality for speed).

Following the useful lesson above, can anyone confirm the setting I should choose on my Mac for a bit perfect output of Spotify Premium (via USB to async DAC)?

Would it be 44.1Khz?

 

[the record spot]

TimothyRias - thank you very much, that makes perfect sense. I had wrongly assumed that the setting meant the computer would correctly play anything up to 192KHz files. What settings would you recommend for a bit perfect stream of Spotify (Premium)? Everyone - what are the best sounding 24/192 albums in your experiences? I was reading about it at the weekend and it seems dynamic range/ sound quality varies as much if not more in this format than others. I would like to find an absolutely cracker of a recording just to hear how good things can sound when the stars align and everything is mastered perfectly etc...

Be sure, if you can, to compare the same mastering, else you're just comparing apples and oranges.

 

[inbox4]

TimothyRias - thank you very much, that makes perfect sense. I had wrongly assumed that the setting meant the computer would correctly play anything up to 192KHz files. What settings would you recommend for a bit perfect stream of Spotify (Premium)? Everyone - what are the best sounding 24/192 albums in your experiences? I was reading about it at the weekend and it seems dynamic range/ sound quality varies as much if not more in this format than others. I would like to find an absolutely cracker of a recording just to hear how good things can sound when the stars align and everything is mastered perfectly etc...

Be sure, if you can, to compare the same mastering, else you're just comparing apples and oranges.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you suggesting the sample rate Spotify streams at isn't consistent?

 

[the record spot]

TimothyRias - thank you very much, that makes perfect sense. I had wrongly assumed that the setting meant the computer would correctly play anything up to 192KHz files. What settings would you recommend for a bit perfect stream of Spotify (Premium)? Everyone - what are the best sounding 24/192 albums in your experiences? I was reading about it at the weekend and it seems dynamic range/ sound quality varies as much if not more in this format than others. I would like to find an absolutely cracker of a recording just to hear how good things can sound when the stars align and everything is mastered perfectly etc...

Be sure, if you can, to compare the same mastering, else you're just comparing apples and oranges.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you suggesting the sample rate Spotify streams at isn't consistent?

It's more to do with the work that's done at the CD production stage. You could have the same title of a CD, but not necessarily mastered byt he same person and that'll influence the resulting sound you hear. Probably moreso than the bitrate, or streamer, or streaming service that you use. Here's a brief explanation from Wikipedia:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_mastering

And here's an interview with the guy who's work I probably enjoy the most, Barry Diament. He used to be the mastering engineer at Atlantic and you've maybe got some of his CDs at home. He's usually, or at least, very often credited in the booklet:-

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-barry-diament-soundkeeper-recordings

...and here's a list (sorry for all the links, but you get the idea by now maybe!):-

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Barry+Diament

 

[Craig M.]

Following the useful lesson above, can anyone confirm the setting I should choose on my Mac for a bit perfect output of Spotify Premium (via USB to async DAC)?

Would it be 44.1Khz?

Spotify premium streams at 320kbps (I think), no matter what you set your Macs output at it is going to be converted. There isn't a 'bit perfect' in this case. As the record spot has said, the quality of mastering is what's important regards sound quality. More important even then the kit you're listening to it through.

 

[davedotco]

Following the useful lesson above, can anyone confirm the setting I should choose on my Mac for a bit perfect output of Spotify Premium (via USB to async DAC)?

Would it be 44.1Khz?

Spotify premium streams at 320kbps (I think), no matter what you set your Macs output at it is going to be converted. There isn't a 'bit perfect' in this case. As the record spot has said, the quality of mastering is what's important regards sound quality. More important even then the kit you're listening to it through.

Spotify is not exactly forthcoming in explanation of the technology it uses to stream music.

It is generally considered to use the Ogg Vorbis codec which is arguably the best sounding, particularly at higher bitrates, ie 320 kbit/sec, Spotify's Premium service.

Lower bitrates, still Ogg Vorbis, are used as standard on mobile platforms but Premium users can select higher quality though apparantly many do not do so.

It is more complicated for those who use a web browser rather than a Desktop App, since all browsers do not support Ogg Vorbis it is believed that MP3 codecs are used in that instance, though Spotify seem reluctant to confirm this.

For what it is worth, I use Spotify a lot and the differencies between different 'releases' (of the same album) is sometimes quite apparent, obviously so in some cases.

 

[TimothyRias]

[...]

Spotify premium streams at 320kbps (I think), no matter what you set your Macs output at it is going to be converted. There isn't a 'bit perfect' in this case. As the record spot has said, the quality of mastering is what's important regards sound quality. More important even then the kit you're listening to it through.

Decoding is not quite the same as converting. A 320 kbps ogg vorbis stream will always decode to exactly the same PCM stream. That stream can or cannot be communicated "bitperfectly" to the digital output.

Of course, the lossy coding to 320 kbps has degraded the SQ much more than resampling would.