I was wondering if the speaker levels arrived at after using auto room calibration (arc) can be manipulated without effecting the arrived at "EQ" to improve the overall sound output. On running the arc, I have final channel levels like -7 for FL, -8 for C, -7.5 for FR, etc. etc. Since I need to crank up the volume to around -25 to hear reasonable multichannel sound from a particular source, is it feasible to increase the speaker levels proportionately for all channels, say by +5, resulting in -2 for FL, -3 for C, -2.5 for FR, etc. etc. so as to increase the overall sound output without compromising the existing EQ. With this, will I hear now the same magnitude of sound at say -35 vol that I heard earlier at -25 volume from that source?
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Speaker level manipulation after auto calibration
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What you describe should be fine
But it will probably be at a slight loss of quality as amps work better when pushed
But it will probably be at a slight loss of quality as amps work better when pushed
Thank you for the advice. But will it resolve my basic intention of doing the whole exercise of trying to increase the magnitude of overall sound output at a relatively lower volume?
Thank you for the advice. But I am not very clear on the loss of quality. At -25 vol, I am still much below reference level with loads of reserve power remaining.
Yes it will be louder when at the same level on your amp
Generally speaking an amp will control a speaker better the more power it uses. Less power = less control (Obviously there is a thing as too high mind). Whether or not you could tell a difference remains to be seen. Reserve power is when it requires it (A huge explosion say), im talking about ALL sound
Generally speaking an amp will control a speaker better the more power it uses. Less power = less control (Obviously there is a thing as too high mind). Whether or not you could tell a difference remains to be seen. Reserve power is when it requires it (A huge explosion say), im talking about ALL sound
aliEnRIK:
Yes it will be louder when at the same level on your amp
Generally speaking an amp will control a speaker better the more power it uses. Less power = less control (Obviously there is a thing as too high mind). Whether or not you could tell a difference remains to be seen. Reserve power is when it requires it (A huge explosion say), im talking about ALL sound
I fully agree to that point of more power = more control. Infact by increasing the speaker level from -7 to -2, am I not providing more power? Then how will that lead to loss of quality?
Yes it will be louder when at the same level on your amp
Generally speaking an amp will control a speaker better the more power it uses. Less power = less control (Obviously there is a thing as too high mind). Whether or not you could tell a difference remains to be seen. Reserve power is when it requires it (A huge explosion say), im talking about ALL sound
I fully agree to that point of more power = more control. Infact by increasing the speaker level from -7 to -2, am I not providing more power? Then how will that lead to loss of quality?
Andrew Everard:Yes, you can adjust the speaker levels without affecting the EQ.
Thanks for your advice.
Is there anything called 'break-in' phenomenon (or period) for AVRs, especially for the Class D amps?
The reason for my asking is because my earlier Denon 2309 played reasonably loud at around -20 vol. And while buying the Pioneer SC LX83, I thought I would have comparable sound levels at much lower volume levels. However the '83, while sonically brilliant, isn't that loud at comparable volume levels with the Denon. Has this anything to do with standing wave correction in '83 which seem to have reduced the boominess (and hence the loudness) and the full band phase control which makes the sound smoother (reduces the harshness/loudness). Or was this my preconceived notion?
Thanks for your advice.
Is there anything called 'break-in' phenomenon (or period) for AVRs, especially for the Class D amps?
The reason for my asking is because my earlier Denon 2309 played reasonably loud at around -20 vol. And while buying the Pioneer SC LX83, I thought I would have comparable sound levels at much lower volume levels. However the '83, while sonically brilliant, isn't that loud at comparable volume levels with the Denon. Has this anything to do with standing wave correction in '83 which seem to have reduced the boominess (and hence the loudness) and the full band phase control which makes the sound smoother (reduces the harshness/loudness). Or was this my preconceived notion?
datta70:Andrew Everard:Yes, you can adjust the speaker levels without affecting the EQ.
Thanks for your advice.
Is there anything called 'break-in' phenomenon (or period) for AVRs, especially for the Class D amps?
The reason for my asking is because my earlier Denon 2309 played reasonably loud at around -20 vol. And while buying the Pioneer SC LX83, I thought I would have comparable sound levels at much lower volume levels. However the '83, while sonically brilliant, isn't that loud at comparable volume levels with the Denon. Has this anything to do with standing wave correction in '83 which seem to have reduced the boominess (and hence the loudness) and the full band phase control which makes the sound smoother (reduces the harshness/loudness). Or was this my preconceived notion?
datta70 -The reason for your earlier Denon 2309 being played reasonably louder at any given vol. compared to the pioneer lx83 , it,s simply because the Denon 2309 has the Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Vol. and what exaclty thise funtion do,s is that it monitor the audio signal and as the more you lower the vol. the more it boost the over all response! think of it as a loudness/booster in real time.
Back to the pioneer lx83 - sure it has the THX loudness on board and by defult it,s ON but it,s not as effective as the Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Vol. i would reccommand instead of raising the channel's level by that much , i would set them back to where they were after the auto setup , and then go to the EQ seting and raise the Trim for each speaker by 1 - 2 db,
just make sure that your AVR. is NOT in (A.L.C) mode and that you are tweaking the EQ that you normaly use , as you know in the pioneer lx83 you can save up to 6 different EQ, so if you using EQ -1 then choose that in the seting and than raise the trim for each speaker by 1 - 2 db.
Goodluck
Thanks for your advice.
Is there anything called 'break-in' phenomenon (or period) for AVRs, especially for the Class D amps?
The reason for my asking is because my earlier Denon 2309 played reasonably loud at around -20 vol. And while buying the Pioneer SC LX83, I thought I would have comparable sound levels at much lower volume levels. However the '83, while sonically brilliant, isn't that loud at comparable volume levels with the Denon. Has this anything to do with standing wave correction in '83 which seem to have reduced the boominess (and hence the loudness) and the full band phase control which makes the sound smoother (reduces the harshness/loudness). Or was this my preconceived notion?
datta70 -The reason for your earlier Denon 2309 being played reasonably louder at any given vol. compared to the pioneer lx83 , it,s simply because the Denon 2309 has the Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Vol. and what exaclty thise funtion do,s is that it monitor the audio signal and as the more you lower the vol. the more it boost the over all response! think of it as a loudness/booster in real time.
Back to the pioneer lx83 - sure it has the THX loudness on board and by defult it,s ON but it,s not as effective as the Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Vol. i would reccommand instead of raising the channel's level by that much , i would set them back to where they were after the auto setup , and then go to the EQ seting and raise the Trim for each speaker by 1 - 2 db,
just make sure that your AVR. is NOT in (A.L.C) mode and that you are tweaking the EQ that you normaly use , as you know in the pioneer lx83 you can save up to 6 different EQ, so if you using EQ -1 then choose that in the seting and than raise the trim for each speaker by 1 - 2 db.
Goodluck
marco_1, many thanks for the recommendation. I shall try raising the trim levels for each speakers and hear the result. Do I need to change anything on the subwoofer at the same time?
Not the same amp (Y2065) but when u look to trim the response after an auto calibration - all the settings are at zero - I guess its either auto PEQ or your on your own with trimming the frequencies from scratch. I guess the auto calibration is useful to set the correct distance and therefore phase tho even when the PEQ is turned off.
Cheers
Cheers
datta70:
marco_1, many thanks for the recommendation. I shall try raising the trim levels for each speakers and hear the result. Do I need to change anything on the subwoofer at the same time?
you don,t need to do the same for the subwoofer , unless you think that it,s not loud enough compared to the rest of the speakers.
by the way you won,t find the trim for the subwoofer in the EQ section but it,s there in the Standing wave section if you want to use it.
marco_1, many thanks for the recommendation. I shall try raising the trim levels for each speakers and hear the result. Do I need to change anything on the subwoofer at the same time?
you don,t need to do the same for the subwoofer , unless you think that it,s not loud enough compared to the rest of the speakers.
by the way you won,t find the trim for the subwoofer in the EQ section but it,s there in the Standing wave section if you want to use it.
marco_1, I could increase the trim for all the speakers by +1.5, also increased all the channel levels also by +2 and applied the DRC-max (for analogue sources) and have now got a much better overall response at -35 volume setting. I have also kept the midnight mode to "off" as putting it on does add some amount of extra bass and harshness to the sound while the high mid-high frequencies appear to get masked in that effect. BTW, as you mentioned earlier, the THX loudness while "on" by default, can be switched off once the midnight mode is turned "off". IMO the Virtual Height also helps to add some depth (I m using 7.1 currently), but only in those numbers with less low frequency information. VH is much better than S. Retreiver, I thought, though their purposes are different.
Interestingly I have come across some of the features of '83 under Manual MCACC few years back on a much cheaper model from Yamaha (RX-V450). I am not sure if Yamaha still continues to provide these facilities, but those were quite handly at that time as I used inexpensive Sony floor standing speakers then. After the Yamaha I used Denon 2309 which didn't allow any of these and forgot about them altogether.
My RSW-12 is still not singing to its potential, even after raising its trim. Maybe I have to run the full auto once again. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks
Interestingly I have come across some of the features of '83 under Manual MCACC few years back on a much cheaper model from Yamaha (RX-V450). I am not sure if Yamaha still continues to provide these facilities, but those were quite handly at that time as I used inexpensive Sony floor standing speakers then. After the Yamaha I used Denon 2309 which didn't allow any of these and forgot about them altogether.
My RSW-12 is still not singing to its potential, even after raising its trim. Maybe I have to run the full auto once again. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks
datta70:marco_1, I could increase the trim for all the speakers by +1.5, also increased all the channel levels also by +2 and applied the DRC-max (for analogue sources) and have now got a much better overall response at -35 volume setting. I have also kept the midnight mode to "off" as putting it on does add some amount of extra bass and harshness to the sound while the high mid-high frequencies appear to get masked in that effect. BTW, as you mentioned earlier, the THX loudness while "on" by default, can be switched off once the midnight mode is turned "off". IMO the Virtual Height also helps to add some depth (I m using 7.1 currently), but only in those numbers with less low frequency information. VH is much better than S. Retreiver, I thought, though their purposes are different.
Interestingly I have come across some of the features of '83 under Manual MCACC few years back on a much cheaper model from Yamaha (RX-V450). I am not sure if Yamaha still continues to provide these facilities, but those were quite handly at that time as I used inexpensive Sony floor standing speakers then. After the Yamaha I used Denon 2309 which didn't allow any of these and forgot about them altogether.
My RSW-12 is still not singing to its potential, even after raising its trim. Maybe I have to run the full auto once again. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks
datta70 -That sounds very reasonable setting for the speakers, though i found it strange the way that THX loudness and Midnight mode interact with each other, i know on my LX82 those 2 function has no effect on each other and by default the Midnight mode is OFF while THX loudness is ON....maybe something has changed there with the LX83?. i wouldn,t use the S. Retreiver as thise is only ment to be use with low qaulity sources such as mp3 elc. anyway i don,t think that u can even switch it to ON if you feeding the AVR. some lossless audio format.
datta70 -when u say( RSW-12 is still not singing to it,s potential) iam assuming that u are talking about your subwoofer and that it,s still not playing loud and deep enough for you? -if that is the case, try and set the (DRC) back to Auto as seting this to Max u are actaully strangling/preventing the deep bass from playing as loud and deep as it should , u can also try and tweak the standing wave, just go to the standing wave choose the subwoofer and than lower the db by 1 - 2 for each freq. if all that failed , then i think your sweet spot could be in a problem and that u are seating in the middle of a nasty Peak/Dip and so as a result when you runing the MCACC auto setup from the same seating position , it,s cuting too much . there is a way around thise and sometime it realy works , i know it did for me , run the MCACC and place the Mic. about 20-35cm either left or right, back or forward from your seating position and then run the auto setup , try them all if you wish and see what will works best for you.
Interestingly I have come across some of the features of '83 under Manual MCACC few years back on a much cheaper model from Yamaha (RX-V450). I am not sure if Yamaha still continues to provide these facilities, but those were quite handly at that time as I used inexpensive Sony floor standing speakers then. After the Yamaha I used Denon 2309 which didn't allow any of these and forgot about them altogether.
My RSW-12 is still not singing to its potential, even after raising its trim. Maybe I have to run the full auto once again. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks
datta70 -That sounds very reasonable setting for the speakers, though i found it strange the way that THX loudness and Midnight mode interact with each other, i know on my LX82 those 2 function has no effect on each other and by default the Midnight mode is OFF while THX loudness is ON....maybe something has changed there with the LX83?. i wouldn,t use the S. Retreiver as thise is only ment to be use with low qaulity sources such as mp3 elc. anyway i don,t think that u can even switch it to ON if you feeding the AVR. some lossless audio format.
datta70 -when u say( RSW-12 is still not singing to it,s potential) iam assuming that u are talking about your subwoofer and that it,s still not playing loud and deep enough for you? -if that is the case, try and set the (DRC) back to Auto as seting this to Max u are actaully strangling/preventing the deep bass from playing as loud and deep as it should , u can also try and tweak the standing wave, just go to the standing wave choose the subwoofer and than lower the db by 1 - 2 for each freq. if all that failed , then i think your sweet spot could be in a problem and that u are seating in the middle of a nasty Peak/Dip and so as a result when you runing the MCACC auto setup from the same seating position , it,s cuting too much . there is a way around thise and sometime it realy works , i know it did for me , run the MCACC and place the Mic. about 20-35cm either left or right, back or forward from your seating position and then run the auto setup , try them all if you wish and see what will works best for you.
marco_1, many thanks for your valuable inputs. The RWS-12 subwoofer problem is solved now, but it was all for my fault (or my son's
). He somehow managed to switch off the subwoofer's power mode on the back panel while I was away during the day and I wasn't even aware to check the green light while setting up the new '83 later.
Anyway I have re-run the MCACC full auto and things are spot on now after raising the speaker trim levels. Only that the subwoofer still sounds boomy for my liking in some instances. Apart from trying to relocate the SW, do you think this has anything to do with the standing waves and running the multi (3) point standing wave correction might help resolve this? I would prefer not to change the trim or SW level as the SW is quite near to my listening position (cannot place the SW near the fronts due to space constraints).
BTW, how do you use your speaker setting - (i) all set to small and subwoofer setting on receiver at 80hz/100hz crossover or (ii) fronts & centre as large, rest as small and subwoofer as yes/plus with crossover at 80/100hz on receiver settings?
As regarding the THX loudness, though I initially did see it as 'on', it is 'off' now. I am not sure how it happened, but while changing the midnight mode using audio parameters button on remote, I saw it coming on as I switched on the midnight mode and it went off as I switched off the midnight mode. I use the DRC-max for analogue signals as the DRC-auto is meant only for Dolby TrueHD sources while for all other sources it would remain ineffective until changed to either max/min/off (as per manual).
Cheers
Anyway I have re-run the MCACC full auto and things are spot on now after raising the speaker trim levels. Only that the subwoofer still sounds boomy for my liking in some instances. Apart from trying to relocate the SW, do you think this has anything to do with the standing waves and running the multi (3) point standing wave correction might help resolve this? I would prefer not to change the trim or SW level as the SW is quite near to my listening position (cannot place the SW near the fronts due to space constraints).
BTW, how do you use your speaker setting - (i) all set to small and subwoofer setting on receiver at 80hz/100hz crossover or (ii) fronts & centre as large, rest as small and subwoofer as yes/plus with crossover at 80/100hz on receiver settings?
As regarding the THX loudness, though I initially did see it as 'on', it is 'off' now. I am not sure how it happened, but while changing the midnight mode using audio parameters button on remote, I saw it coming on as I switched on the midnight mode and it went off as I switched off the midnight mode. I use the DRC-max for analogue signals as the DRC-auto is meant only for Dolby TrueHD sources while for all other sources it would remain ineffective until changed to either max/min/off (as per manual).
Cheers
Glad you have sorted it out though
you can try the multi 3 point standing wave that might help, but in general pioneer MCACC it dosn,t do a good job on the subwoofer's , just like every other auto set found on every AVR. (Apart from audyssey) i think audyssey it do,s a kind of decent job on the subwoofer's not a perfect result but a good one, some auto setup like MCACC allmost do nothing to the subwoofer! in my case i have been analyzing the result for before and after calibration with a measurment kit and the graph for the curv for before and after it was totally identical! it did nothing for the subwoofer! so i had to solv some of the problem by adding a paramatric EQ -just remember it,s realy hard to get a perfect bass in a room that is untreated infact it,s allmost impossible ,just try to take the worst out of it.
Regarding the speakers size -Personally i would set everything to SMALL and even though i have a big size floor stander speakers that are capable of producing bass down to 35HZ -but that is realy only on paper's in the real world trust me every speakers willl start rolling off long before what they claim on paper's. there are very few speakers that are capable of playing flat all the way down and usually they are very expensive, there are some addvantage and reason for seting speakers to small: first let,s say u have a speakers that play flat down to 40HZ what will happen to the rest of the bass from 40-20HZ ?...it,s lost forever!! so by seting the speaker to small and specifying a crossover , u are actually relieving both your amp. and speaker's! and in return u will get more Headroom and more Clean sound in the Mid & Hight while your subwoofer is doing what it,s best at doing and which's taking care of all the deep bass!
I have my crossover at 100HZ , u can try between 80-100HZ and listen to what sounds best for you
cheers
you can try the multi 3 point standing wave that might help, but in general pioneer MCACC it dosn,t do a good job on the subwoofer's , just like every other auto set found on every AVR. (Apart from audyssey) i think audyssey it do,s a kind of decent job on the subwoofer's not a perfect result but a good one, some auto setup like MCACC allmost do nothing to the subwoofer! in my case i have been analyzing the result for before and after calibration with a measurment kit and the graph for the curv for before and after it was totally identical! it did nothing for the subwoofer! so i had to solv some of the problem by adding a paramatric EQ -just remember it,s realy hard to get a perfect bass in a room that is untreated infact it,s allmost impossible ,just try to take the worst out of it.
Regarding the speakers size -Personally i would set everything to SMALL and even though i have a big size floor stander speakers that are capable of producing bass down to 35HZ -but that is realy only on paper's in the real world trust me every speakers willl start rolling off long before what they claim on paper's. there are very few speakers that are capable of playing flat all the way down and usually they are very expensive, there are some addvantage and reason for seting speakers to small: first let,s say u have a speakers that play flat down to 40HZ what will happen to the rest of the bass from 40-20HZ ?...it,s lost forever!! so by seting the speaker to small and specifying a crossover , u are actually relieving both your amp. and speaker's! and in return u will get more Headroom and more Clean sound in the Mid & Hight while your subwoofer is doing what it,s best at doing and which's taking care of all the deep bass!
I have my crossover at 100HZ , u can try between 80-100HZ and listen to what sounds best for you
cheers
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