Soundstage challenge

[Gaz37]

The theory of sound coming from behind the speakers or indeed depth of sound between the speaker & the listener is entirely down to the mix at recording?

That being the case how well that is reproduced in the listening environment must be governed by the system's accuracy?

 

[Vladimir]

A girl singing in a microphone without any music can be produced to sound larger than life, stunning, mezmerizing. If you actually stood there infront of her as she sings, nothing that impressive happened really. She may have a nice voice, but the production effects make things really spectacular.

So a hifi system will reproduce the recording almost perfectly. The audiophile will be pleased how good his hifi sounds, so lifelike, as if she was in the room with him. Simply amazing presence, clarity and projection of vocals. But it's the production effects really. How are we suposed to know how produced vocal should sound? It's augmented reality.

 

[Gray]

Binaural works so well because it's just 2 mics (inside ears).

That and the fact that there are no room effects during playback.

 

[chebby]

Only hi-fi show I ever went to in Brighton (organised by a local chain called Jeffries) in the early 1980s when we were just barely out of our teens. (Boy was that a mistake!)

Anyhoo. Pregnant GF - getting a bit feint and woozy from lack of air - was swept into private (ticket only) enclave reserved by 'Absolute Sounds' to recover. They had masses of windows and lots of fresh air from the beach and a welcome cup of tea was hussled up from his crew by a rather dapper fellow whom I later learned was called Ricardo Franassovici.

Whilst Mrs c chugged down her tea I got shown the AS system of Oracle Delphi, Black Widow arm, Koetsu Gold Signature, Audio Research pre, Krell mono blocks and some big Belgian speakers called 'Etudes' (Etude Kronos I think) and we had a little performance of it's talents whilst they tested it out for the upcoming 'all ticket' sessions.

OMG!! About £38,000 (1980s £s mind you) of sheer effortless power with an insane soundstage that went up and over, under, around and even inside us (!) or so it seemed. Paul Young's 'Common People' 12" single sounded like 'the voice of the gods' to someone who had a new Rega Planar 3 (1st version to sport the RB300 arm) and a NAD 3020 at home!

The volume control should have been re-named the 'bigness control' because it seemed designed to make the apparent acoustic space larger rather than just go louder.

You got the impression it would go louder/bigger infinitely without ever running out of power.

It was certainly an experience. We left the hotel and enjoyed the rest of the day on the beach and away from the claustrophobia of tiny, airless rooms stuffed full of 'freebie hunters'.

I've never wanted to go to another show in the 33 years since but i'll always remember the impression that Absolute Sounds system left. (And the tea and friendliness they showed to my partner.)

 

[Vladimir]

 

[Gray]

(See the previous photo)

Converted wardrobes!

 

[insider9]

The theory of sound coming from behind the speakers or indeed depth of sound between the speaker & the listener is entirely down to the mix at recording?

That being the case how well that is reproduced in the listening environment must be governed by the system's accuracy?

Regarding first question.

No, not entirely. Mixing is only part of it and can enhance the material but usually doesn't sound right if you're trying do too much too late (when mixing). It needs to be done while recording. At that point distance to microphone and the venue will have a major impact. The venue's size and type. Consider recording the same in a small vocal booth in a recording studio where there's little natural reverb and recording the same in a cathedral or outdoor opera concert hall. Each room will contribute massively to the recording. Studios will have different rooms to record vocals and drums as well as orchestras. Each more suited to specific needs.

Then there is the elephant in the room which is the sound you're recording. For example you usually don't want to be recording clean sounding guitars then to add distortion to them later. You go with as close to the sound you can to then slightly enhance it to make it sound and blend in better.

No entirely sure what you mean buy the second question.

 

[Vladimir]

Volt + Dynaudio + Audax , all high quality drivers. Cabinets similar size to AR-9. Bigly. Maybe they were a different model?

BTW, Absolute Sound played a fitting song for the young couple.

 

[Gray]

The theory of sound coming from behind the speakers or indeed depth of sound between the speaker & the listener is entirely down to the mix at recording?

That being the case how well that is reproduced in the listening environment must be governed by the system's accuracy?

Regarding first question.

No, not entirely. Mixing is only part of it and can enhance the material but usually doesn't sound right if you're trying do too much too late (when mixing). It needs to be done while recording. At that point distance to microphone and the venue will have a major impact. The venue's size and type. Consider recording the same in a small vocal booth in a recording studio where there's little natural reverb and recording the same in a cathedral or outdoor opera concert hall. Each room will contribute massively to the recording. Studios will have different rooms to record vocals and drums as well as orchestras. Each more suited to specific needs.

Then there is the elephant in the room which is the sound you're recording. For example you usually don't want to be recording clean sounding guitars then to add distortion to them later. You go with as close to the sound you can to then slightly enhance it to make it sound and blend in better.

No entirely sure what you mean buy the second question.

The second question is asking if the accuracy of the reproducing system affects the depth perception for the listener.

To which the answer is of course yes. At it's best it'll let you hear it. (If there's not something stupid like an armchair in front of a speaker like you see in some houses)

 

[nopiano]

I find that Valve Amps generally pull off the 3D effect very well.

That's true in my experience too, but I think some of the impression will be because of the high output impedance altering the overall frequency response. (See Vladimir's recent speakers cable thread for more on this).

Plenty of speakers have a suckout that throws a spurious but very ear-tickling depth to most recordings.

 

[nopiano]

The second question is asking if the accuracy of the reproducing system affects the depth perception for the listener.

To which the answer is of course yes. At it's best it'll let you hear it. (If there's not something stupid like an armchair in front of a speaker like you see in some houses)

Yes, though see my post above, where inaccuracy can enhance perception of depth. Truly accurate depth obviously requires as good a phase response as possible.

 

[Gray]

The second question is asking if the accuracy of the reproducing system affects the depth perception for the listener.

To which the answer is of course yes. At it's best it'll let you hear it. (If there's not something stupid like an armchair in front of a speaker like you see in some houses)

Yes, though see my post above, where inaccuracy can enhance perception of depth. Truly accurate depth obviously requires as good a phase response as possible.

Yes, I was going to add that the system could change but not improve the spatial information. (By improve we mean make it more true to the original of course) Although, depending on the listener a change can be (and often is) perceived as an improvement. e.g. a speaker that over emphasises bass. Inaccurate, not faithful to the source but preferred by some.

 

[Vladimir]

I've checked rise time, slew rate and 10kHz square wave specs on amps to learn their resolution. If the square wave doesn't have clean, sharp edges [ ], it may result in a smooth possibly muddy sound ( ). If the square wave has overshoots it may add some harmonics to the sound, audible/inaudible, desirable/undesirable. Some make this effect with higher capacitance cables, which @nopiano mentioned, as desirable coloration. Often they would criticize clean sounding, fast resolving amps as clinical or unmusical.

Fisher 500-C [like melting icecream on a nice sunny day, everything sounds good through oldschool Fishers]

Shanling MC-30 [overshoot and ringing, WHF review: "wonderfully rich, refined and sweet presentation"]

Onkyo A-9555 [overshoots but no ringing]

Bryston 7B ST [surgical precision, will track a signal perfectly]

Manley Laboratories 250 Neo-Classic [valve amp with 10kHz square wave like you would expect]

PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium [valve amplifier with 10kHz square wave like you wouldn't expect]

 

[Leif]

I won't perform this test due to the choice of music, and I'm not going out and buying it just for you.

I've checked rise time, slew rate and 10kHz square wave specs on amps to learn their resolution. If the square wave doesn't have clean, sharp edges [ ], it may result in a smooth possibly muddy sound ( ). If the square wave has overshoots it may add some harmonics to the sound, audible/inaudible, desirable/undesirable. Some make this effect with higher capacitance cables, which @nopiano mentioned, as desirable coloration. Often they would criticize clean sounding, fast resolving amps as clinical or unmusical.

Fisher 500-C [like melting icecream on a nice sunny day, everything sounds good through oldschool Fishers]

Shanling MC-30 [overshoot and ringing, WHF review: "wonderfully rich, refined and sweet presentation"]

Onkyo A-9555 [overshoots but no ringing]

Bryston 7B ST [surgical precision, will track a signal perfectly]

Manley Laboratories 250 Neo-Classic [valve amp with 10kHz square wave like you would expect]

PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium [valve amplifier with 10kHz square wave like you wouldn't expect]

I do wish that equipment reviews would present the sort of information given above. Knowing the frequency response and square wave reproduction does tell you something very useful albeit not the complete picture e.g. is there an enhanced bass, and high resolution, or a sudden treble drop off and a muddiness. So much of this audio world is flim flam, and smoke and mirrors with claims and counter claims rife.

 

[Gaz37]

I won't perform this test due to the choice of music, and I'm not going out and buying it just for you

Spoilsport lol

Don't worry we're three pages & nobody's managed it lol.

 

[insider9]

I won't perform this test due to the choice of music, and I'm not going out and buying it just for you

Spoilsport lol

Don't worry we're three pages & nobody's managed it lol.

Gaz, I have a page of notes from yesterday. First 4 minutes of "Money for Nothing".

I'm happy to post but would like to know if you tried what I wrote in one of my earlier posts. Sitting in between speakers reasonably close with nothing causing reflections. And posting your thoughts.

I appreciate you may think it's all rubbish but psychoacoustics is a science and whether you agree or not is a completely different matter.

I assume you can hear in both ears?

 

[jonathanRD]

I was bored so I tried it - but I found the production on the album not that great - in terms of instruments changing position during a track. So I just chilled and let the album play out - knodding off towards the end.

Then put on Tom Jones 'Praise and Blame' - wow what a difference! Tom was in my room belting out the tracks, with the drums behind him slightly right, and a guitar over on the left-hand side. The band clearly removed my speakers when they came on - as they disappeared. On some tracks the drums and guitar changed positions, but each track gave a consistent presentation as a band. Some height too from Tom's voice and the sensation that the bass drum notes were coming at me low down from behind Tom.

On a roll I then put on John Owen-Jones 'Rise'. With a musical theatre theme, where the band is in a pit in front of the stage, you don't always get to pick out where the instruments are, but again John's voice was centre stage, with a wall of sound supporting his vocals. Some rousing stuff on this album and some classic MT songs too.

So I enjoyed my little session, no idea if I answered your question*unknw*

 

[Gaz37]

I won't perform this test due to the choice of music, and I'm not going out and buying it just for you

Spoilsport lol

Don't worry we're three pages & nobody's managed it lol.

Gaz, I have a page of notes from yesterday. First 4 minutes of "Money for Nothing".

I'm happy to post but would like to know if you tried what I wrote in one of my earlier posts. Sitting in between speakers reasonably close with nothing causing reflections. And posting your thoughts.

I appreciate you may think it's all rubbish but psychoacoustics is a science and whether you agree or not is a completely different matter.

I assume you can hear in both ears?

I'm very limited in terms of speaker positioning, the room they're in is fairly narrow so getting them 12" from the side walls ( wall one side, tall dresser the other) puts them only 4' apart.

 

[insider9]

I won't perform this test due to the choice of music, and I'm not going out and buying it just for you

Spoilsport lol

Don't worry we're three pages & nobody's managed it lol.

Gaz, I have a page of notes from yesterday. First 4 minutes of "Money for Nothing".

I'm happy to post but would like to know if you tried what I wrote in one of my earlier posts. Sitting in between speakers reasonably close with nothing causing reflections. And posting your thoughts.

I appreciate you may think it's all rubbish but psychoacoustics is a science and whether you agree or not is a completely different matter.

I assume you can hear in both ears?

I'm very limited in terms of speaker positioning, the room they're in is fairly narrow so getting them 12" from the side walls ( wall one side, tall dresser the other) puts them only 4' apart.

Fair enough. Just get a chair and sit closer than you normally would. Might not even have to toe them in more. Try a couple of tracks and see if it makes a difference. As long as the speakers are not obstructed you should hear an improvement with more direct sound coming and less early reflections.

 

[insider9]

Imagine a line drawn between speaker and sit no more than two feet from it. Your setup is quite narrow. I have a nearfield setup with speakers 6' apart and same distance to listening position.

 

[Gaz37]

Imagine a line drawn between speaker and sit no more than two feet from it. Your setup is quite narrow. I have a nearfield setup with speakers 6' apart and same distance to listening position.

2' from speakers 4' apart?

I was lead to believe that you should be the same distance from the speakers as the gap between them?

 

[insider9]

Imagine a line drawn between speaker and sit no more than two feet from it. Your setup is quite narrow. I have a nearfield setup with speakers 6' apart and same distance to listening position.

2' from speakers 4' apart?

I was lead to believe that you should be the same distance from the speakers as the gap between them?

With this scenario speakers where speakers will be 4' apart and your distance to each speaker will be 3'.

It's only so you can see if reflections are causing the issue. It should improve the image considerably.

 

[insider9]

Try Led Zeppelin "No Quarter" or just about anything by Pink Floyd. I'm sure you probably at least have "The Dark Side of the Moon".

 

[Gaz37]

Imagine a line drawn between speaker and sit no more than two feet from it. Your setup is quite narrow. I have a nearfield setup with speakers 6' apart and same distance to listening position.

2' from speakers 4' apart?

I was lead to believe that you should be the same distance from the speakers as the gap between them?

With this scenario speakers where speakers will be 4' apart and your distance to each speaker will be 3'.

It's only so you can see if reflections are causing the issue. It should improve the image considerably.

I'll give that a try but probably when Mrs Gaz isn't due home from work any minute as she is now lol
Thanks

 

[Gaz37]

Try Led Zeppelin "No Quarter" or just about anything by Pink Floyd. I'm sure you probably at least have "The Dark Side of the Moon".

Got Dark Side on CD & have a couple of Led Zep albums somewhere, if not they're probably on Spotify