Soundstage challenge

[Gaz37]

Inspired by commennts in another thread I'm carrying out an experiment on perception of 3D soundstage.

I'd like everbody to listen to Money for Nothing by Dire Straits and post where they perceive the position of the bass guitar in relation to the other instruments. For example- to the left of and in front of the drummer.

Lets do it.........

 

[Gaz37]

Surely it's an easy one?

 

[davidf]

Why the bass player specifically? It should be hard to pinpoint bass, unless there's any high frequency information attached to the bass (or "dirty" sounding bass) that give away where it is.

 

[Gaz37]

First of the excuses lol.

Ok lets go for rhythm guitar in Guns N Roses You Could Be Mine.

 

[davidf]

First of the excuses lol.

From your post in the other thread, I understood you were looking to understand what a three dimensional soundstage is - this response just looks to me like your mind is already set.

 

[Gaz37]

First of the excuses lol.

From your post in the other thread, I understood you were looking to understand what a three dimensional soundstage is - this response just looks to me like your mind is already set.

As such I'm curious if everbody interprets the same recording in the same way, hence what should be a simple test.

Audio version of where's Whally.

Where's Izzy Stradlin?

 

[Vladimir]

I don't think this song is recorded in one take with all band members at the same time. Like most overproduced music, there is no stage and instrument locations.

 

[Gaz37]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

 

[Gaz37]

I don't think this song is recorded in one take with all band members at the same time. Like most overproduced music, there is no stage and instrument locations. 

Most studio albums are recorded like that.
Often different instruments on different days.

 

[Vladimir]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

Everything is in a phantom center behind the speakers.

Try a jazz trio, you can easily pick instruments appart.

 

[Gaz37]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

Everything is in a phantom center behind the speakers.

Try a jazz trio, you can easily pick instruments appart. 

I agree with you but on another thread it was suggested that 3D soundstage was there on any recording.

Odd.

So who's telling the truth?

Quote-
My stereo system and room is capable of creating an image that sounds like the size of the original venue with unlimited depth, width and height, it adds it all to the end of my room in a way that make my room boundarys and speakers completely dissapear .

I am not talking about special recordings either, run of the mill spotify recordings do it just as well, but obviously the better the recording the more pronounced the effect.

Unquote

 

[nick8858]

You won't win with this guy. He's just out for an argument at any cost.

Suggestion everyone - don't post anything else on the thread and before long it will have dissapeared before your very eyes...

 

[Electro]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

Everything is in a phantom center behind the speakers.

Try a jazz trio, you can easily pick instruments appart.

I agree with you but on another thread it was suggested that 3D soundstage was there on any recording.

Odd.

So who's telling the truth?

Quote- My stereo system and room is capable of creating an image that sounds like the size of the original venue with unlimited depth, width and height, it adds it all to the end of my room in a way that make my room boundarys and speakers completely dissapear .

I am not talking about special recordings either, run of the mill spotify recordings do it just as well, but obviously the better the recording the more pronounced the effect.

Unquote

To be honest there is no point trying to explain further, the only way you will understand is to listen for yourself.

I am in Essex about 10 mins from junction30 0f the M25.

If you like you can come and have a listen, let me know if you would like to visit and we can arrange something . .*smile*

 

[Gaz37]

You won't win with this guy. He's just out for an argument at any cost. 

Suggestion everyone - don't post anything else on the thread and before long it will have dissapeared before your very eyes...

Didn't realise this was a competition.

Isn't it amazing how some people can't handle somebody disagreeing with them?

 

[Vladimir]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

Everything is in a phantom center behind the speakers.

Try a jazz trio, you can easily pick instruments appart.

I agree with you but on another thread it was suggested that 3D soundstage was there on any recording.

Odd.

So who's telling the truth?

Quote- My stereo system and room is capable of creating an image that sounds like the size of the original venue with unlimited depth, width and height, it adds it all to the end of my room in a way that make my room boundarys and speakers completely dissapear .

I am not talking about special recordings either, run of the mill spotify recordings do it just as well, but obviously the better the recording the more pronounced the effect.

Unquote

When I had a larger room with speakers positioned 1/3 away from walls, I still had flat artificially panned sound on most music, simply because that is how it is produced. Especially when they patch instruments together all the nuances of instruments and players interacting next to each other in the same room are lost.

Money For Nothing - even the drums are not in one take. Good luck getting 3D in Night Fly or Aja.

 

[Gaz37]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

Everything is in a phantom center behind the speakers.

Try a jazz trio, you can easily pick instruments appart. 

I agree with you but on another thread it was suggested that 3D soundstage was there on any recording.

Odd.

So who's telling the truth?

Quote- My stereo system and room is capable of creating an image that sounds like the size of the original venue with unlimited depth, width and height, it adds it all to the end of my room in a way that make my room boundarys and speakers completely dissapear .

I am not talking about special recordings either, run of the mill spotify recordings do it just as well, but obviously the better the recording the more pronounced the effect.

Unquote

When I had a larger room with speakers positioned 1/3 away from walls, I still had flat artificially panned sound on most music, simply because that is how it is produced. Especially when they patch instruments together all the nuances of instruments and players interacting next to each other in the same room are lost. 

Money For Nothing - even the drums are not in one take. Good luck getting 3D in Night Fly or Aja. 

Glad it's not just me.

In spite of the assumptions being drawn although I'm sceptical I'm not decided that 3D soundstage isnt a tangible illusion, hence the challenge.
If a few people had come forward placing an instrument in the same position it would have been pretty conclusive.
Guess I'll have to remain sceptical

 

[Gaz37]

Two complaints over choice of track & one question over the motivation for the challenge.

Ok shall we try Pink Floyd?

Pulse, the live album.

Learning to Fly.

Tell me the positions of the instruments

Everything is in a phantom center behind the speakers.

Try a jazz trio, you can easily pick instruments appart. 

I agree with you but on another thread it was suggested that 3D soundstage was there on any recording.

Odd.

So who's telling the truth?

Quote- My stereo system and room is capable of creating an image that sounds like the size of the original venue with unlimited depth, width and height, it adds it all to the end of my room in a way that make my room boundarys and speakers completely dissapear .

I am not talking about special recordings either, run of the mill spotify recordings do it just as well, but obviously the better the recording the more pronounced the effect.

Unquote

To be honest there is no point trying to explain further, the only way you will understand is to listen for yourself.

I am in Essex about 10 mins from junction30 0f the M25.

If you like you can come and have a listen, let me know if you would like to visit and we can arrange something . .*smile*

 

Thank you for the kind offer but I'm not curious enough to drive 3 hours each way.

 

[Vladimir]

This reminds me of dynamic vs planar-magnetic drivers in headphones. Once you hear good planars you think the heavens have opened. But in time you will (should) realize that it is an effect from how the transducers work. It's their character, the party trick.

I have no doubt Electro's PMCs have room filling, enveloping effect that immerses you in the music. However, if there is no recorded soundstage, what soundstage are you hearing then?

 

[davidf]

The problem is that a 3D soundstage is associated with surround sound and multiple speakers - that's not what we're talking about here. Maybe there's a better phrase than "three dimensional"? How about "presence" or "projection"? I'm not talking about an instrument that has had reverb or delay added to it to make it sound like it's in a large venue, I'm talking about speakers that dont hold back the instruments to a flat plane across the face of the speakers. The electronics used will also play their part in this.

Some speakers, not all, I can sit in front of, close my eyes, and if I forget about where I am in relation to the speakers, it sounds like I'm sitting much closer to them than I actually am - I remember my Celestion Kingstons were capable of that.

 

[Gray]

I heard a few pairs of speakers in a demo at Audio T's Enfield branch.

With Proac Tablette Ref 8 small standmounts I was very impressed by the spatial positioning of an acoustic guitar between the speakers.

You could say it was '3D' or 'Holographic'....as if the speakers weren't there (surely the holy grail)

I'd heard nothing like it before (or since) and I subsequently used those same Proacs in my own home for a while.

It was no doubt a result of a great recording, ideal for demo, but, more importantly the room - optimised for the purpose, speakers well out into the room, with much space all round them and, here's the thing, absolutely nothing between the speakers.

The setup was impractical for the majority of domestic situations (even if you haven't got a partner directing your every move)

Bottom line is, even if the music is good enough, I suspect many aren't experiencing optimum soundstage effects - I'm certainly not, in this respect I know my reproduction is being compromised.

 

[Gaz37]

Genuine question.

Is what people refer to as 3D soundstage the same as the sound not appearing to come from two boxes?

If so I have definitely heard this.

I have never however been able to accurately place instruments.

 

[Vladimir]

Ideally you want the speakers 'speaking' the truth. Not all music is produced to be holographic, with 3D soundstage, or present and lively in front of you. If the speakers make more or less everything sound like that, it's an effect of designer voicing, beyond making engineering compromises. But if you like that sort of thing and you are into particular genre of music more than others, this may be an advantage.

 

[insider9]

Imaging is very affected by early reflections (up to 20ms) when we're talking about playback. I've spent a good week or so working on acoustic treatment for my modest system to deal with that. For best imaging you need direct sound only that decays fast and no reflections. That means side walls, back and front and most importantly floor and ceiling for early reflection points. Low reverberation times, which are room specific and can be dealt with using acoustic treatment, also help. All of this with assumption that distortion levels are low enough. Frequency response is also important.

It's quote easy to check out this theory. Grab a chair toe in your speakers more and sit in between them so that the distance is low and nothing is obstructing direct path from speaker to you. I'd be very surprised if you didn't notice a difference.

When it comes to recording imaging itself depends on how instruments were mic'ed, their volume and any effects used particularly reverb and delay. That's to determine the depth.

How instruments are placed left to right depends on how the balance knob was turned during mixing. And again effects which can be placed in another channel. For example "Money for Nothing" Mark Knocker guitar is mainly in the left channel at the beginning but most of it's reverb is in the right.

When it comes to height I can't quite explain it other than it affects certain frequencies in a different way. I've never worked that psychoacoustic phenomenon myself. On my system the most noticeable height is in vocals that can be higher in some tracks. Other differences if they exist i don't pay that much attention to. Height is particularly noticeable for me on Joni Mitchell album "Blue" where vocal is above the instruments.

As I said my system is very modest I'd even say cheap by forum or any standards. Currently listening to a £5 amp and £80 speakers with a decent source and I can pick out spatial queues where there are ones. Depends on a recording really.

EDIT for auto correct
It's Mark Knopfler and not Mark Knocker... :biggrin:

 

[Vladimir]

We can define 3D as the ability of the system in interaction with the room to make speaker boxes 'dissappear' and create a soundstage where depending on production one can generate an image of sorts. Yes?

 

[Infiniteloop]

I find that Valve Amps generally pull off the 3D effect very well.