Sonus Faber Venere S and room size

[LDTM]

Tarja is my favourite too, I love her voice. Floor is great but hers is a more visceral style whilst Tarja leans towards the ethereal.

I bought her solo albums but it's just not the same. Tuomas is such a masterful composer.

 

[lindsayt]

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating:
I've never heard a Sonus Faber I didn't like.

Speakers are such a highly personal choice. I've not heard a Sonus Faber that I actually liked.

I've not heard the Venere S yet. £4800 does seem like an awful lot to plonk on a pair of speakers, especially when they will depreciate a lot.

It should be easy for Dr LDTM to find better speakers than his GS20's. There's nothing to stop him hosting a speaker bake-off to get a better perspective on what's what in the speaker world.

 

[Al ears]

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating:
I've never heard a Sonus Faber I didn't like.

Speakers are such a highly personal choice. I've not heard a Sonus Faber that I actually liked.

I've not heard the Venere S yet. £4800 does seem like an awful lot to plonk on a pair of speakers, especially when they will depreciate a lot.

It should be easy for Dr LDTM to find better speakers than his GS20's. There's nothing to stop him hosting a speaker bake-off to get a better perspective on what's what in the speaker world.

I sort of agree but feel, a bit like cars, there are speakers that are going to depreciate more than others and Sonus Faber are not in the fast depreciation group. Also some people just cannot do second-hand ;-)

 

[lindsayt]

Even at a slow depreciation rate, what are we looking at? £1000 the second anyone pays for them? £1500 in the first year? £2000 in the first 2 years? £2400 in the first 5? £3500 in 10 years? For a pair of speakers. For someone that's just got their doctorate.

 

[Al ears]

Even at a slow depreciation rate, what are we looking at? £1000 the second anyone pays for them? £1500 in the first year? £2000 in the first 2 years? £2400 in the first 5? £3500 in 10 years? For a pair of speakers. For someone that's just got their doctorate.

Best to keep them then. ;-)

 

[nopiano]

Even at a slow depreciation rate, what are we looking at? £1000 the second anyone pays for them? £1500 in the first year? £2000 in the first 2 years? £2400 in the first 5? £3500 in 10 years? For a pair of speakers. For someone that's just got their doctorate.

Best to keep them then. ;-)

Indeed! My sonus fabers were about £2200 in 1998. They seem to sell for between £600 and a grand a pair currently. I cannot compare with many other speakers, but I'm pleased with the long term value, which wasn't on my agenda when I purchased them.

 

[lindsayt]

Best to keep them then. ;-)

It doesn't take a PhD to work out that it's better if you let someone else keep them first.

 

[Al ears]

Best to keep them then. ;-)

It doesn't take a PhD to work out that it's better if you let someone else keep them first.

It doesn't take a PhD to work out that if everyone only ever buys second hand we would soon be in a right mess.

 

[lindsayt]

It doesn't take a PhD to work out that if everyone only ever buys second hand we would soon be in a right mess.

It doesn't take a PhD to work out that that isn't the case. IE that there are enough people buying new to make 2nd hand viable.

And that any logical buying decision should be based on the actual state of play today and not some hypothetical situation that will probably never happen.

 

[Vladimir]

Even at a slow depreciation rate, what are we looking at? £1000 the second anyone pays for them? £1500 in the first year? £2000 in the first 2 years? £2400 in the first 5? £3500 in 10 years?

So?

 

[LDTM]

On the utility you ascribe to buying new or second hand. There's a rational argument to make about buying used for any sort of consumer good, but there's also a utility in buying new. If and when I commit to buying a new pair of speakers, I would prefer to buy new. In the same breath, however, I would also consider the cost a sunk one and hence keep them until they die or are simply of no further value.

One could (rightly) argue that for a given outlay I could potentially buy a superior-sounding product but then they wouldn't have the same amount of sentiment attached to them. I bought an old (as in 1960's) Victor SEA equalizer for the downstairs kit; it serves the purpose I bought it for and any damage it may suffer is inconsequential. The stuff I have upstairs is a different matter - even though the speakers are going on 9 years old.

It's an interesting line of discussion, talking about personal decisions on the one hand and market dynamics on the other. Quite rightly, we could say that the anecdote does in no way trump (see what I did there? LOL) the statistical average in terms of what more accurately describes reality, but when we get down to the micro-level of decision making anecdotes or personal experience become so much more important and they drive purchasing decisions just as much.

For myself, I know there exists a vibrant market for second-hand gear in Japan and yet I've not seen a listed price for a piece of gear that makes me want to disregard my preference for 'new' goods. Yet.

Our second car, however, was a different story. Ah, the joys of plotting individual utility functions - such consistency.

Nonetheless, I think I'll *** over to the next prefecture and try out some other alternatives. No harm in gathering data...

 

[Infiniteloop]

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating:
I've never heard a Sonus Faber I didn't like.

Speakers are such a highly personal choice. I've not heard a Sonus Faber that I actually liked.

I've not heard the Venere S yet. £4800 does seem like an awful lot to plonk on a pair of speakers, especially when they will depreciate a lot.

It should be easy for Dr LDTM to find better speakers than his GS20's. There's nothing to stop him hosting a speaker bake-off to get a better perspective on what's what in the speaker world.

I sort of agree but feel, a bit like cars, there are speakers that are going to depreciate more than others and Sonus Faber are not in the fast depreciation group. Also some people just cannot do second-hand ;-)

I bought my current SFs (I've also owned Concertos, which I bought new in 1998 and sold for two thirds of their price in 2012) off a fellow Forumite who hasn't been on here for ages. They are in immaculate condition and sound sublime. In combination with the Devialet, or especially the S8, the emotional impact they are capable of when playing something like Joni Mitchell's 'Sire of Sorrow' from her 'Travelogue' album is extraordinary.

 

[lindsayt]

InfiniteLoop, adjusted for inflation, in real terms you sold your Concertos for 45% of their initial price.

Concertos sold for what? £1800? For someone on an average UK wage, losing £1000 over 14 years isn't so bad.

The Veneres retail at £4800. Losing £2600 - on a pair of speakers - over 14 years is harder to swallow. If we adjusted the Concerto's for inflation, if they sold for £1800 new in 1998, that's the equivalent of £3000 today.

And for Sire of Sorrow, check out the less compressed version on Turbulent Indigo.

 

[Vladimir]

£2000 over 14 years is £0.39 per day.
Would you pay £0.39 per day to have immaculate new speakers and be the first owner?

 

[nopiano]

£2000 over 14 years is £0.39 per day. Would you pay £0.39 per day to have immaculate new speakers and be the first owner?

I would. And recently did! (Not forgetting unlimited demos, home demo loans, 6 year warranty, etc.). However, used gear, like my SACD player, can be a good way to save with little risk.

 

[LDTM]

I understand the argument you are making, but respectfully must disagree for we are beginning to discuss in logical terms what could be argued to be an emotional decision.

If we were discussing a business transaction with, for example, the depreciation of fixed assets then I would side with you because in such an instance our concerns would be aligned vis-a-vis profitability. For hi-fi gear, however, I would counter that it is the emotional pleasure we derive from the hobby and listening to music that is key. Trying to logically justify and emotional response is perhaps not so easily cut and dried.

In any case, it seems that Mrs LDTM isn't entirely happy with the outlay at the moment. Credit where credit is due though, she made a highly logical counter to my emotional desire. The funny thing is, when I said to her "You're right, I can't really logically justify buying them right now" she seemed almost disappointed that I had conceded the point. Almost as if she was spoiling for a 12 round slug out and upset having won it in the 2nd (figuratively speaking, of course).

So, for the meantime I'll carry on squirreling away. Should have enough saved up by December.

 

[nopiano]

If it's any consolation, I knew about five years before I got my first Sonus fabers they were what I wanted. It was worth the wait, and lower cost models arrived in the meantime.

I'd have happily had some newer ones this time around - my ATC are new this year - had I more disposable income. The challenge to better my old ones without bankrupting myself was actually quite rewarding. You know when a speaker is right for you.

 

[Al ears]

If it's any consolation, I knew about five years before I got my first Sonus fabers they were what I wanted. It was worth the wait, and lower cost models arrived in the meantime.

I'd have happily had some newer ones this time around - my ATC are new this year - had I more disposable income. The challenge to better my old ones without bankrupting myself was actually quite rewarding. You know when a speaker is right for you.

+1

There's always a time and a reason to buy new.

 

[CnoEvil]

You know when a speaker is right for you.

Sometimes it's having the confidence to "know that you will know"....especially if buying for the first time. Almost everybody that I have guided into buying their first system has said, "I know nothing about hifi, so won't know what I'm listening to."

....and then when the demo starts, surprise themselves by having clear opinions.

 

[Infiniteloop]

InfiniteLoop, adjusted for inflation, in real terms you sold your Concertos for 45% of their initial price.

Concertos sold for what? £1800? For someone on an average UK wage, losing £1000 over 14 years isn't so bad.

The Veneres retail at £4800. Losing £2600 - on a pair of speakers - over 14 years is harder to swallow. If we adjusted the Concerto's for inflation, if they sold for £1800 new in 1998, that's the equivalent of £3000 today.

And for Sire of Sorrow, check out the less compressed version on Turbulent Indigo.

And your point is what?

'Sire of Sorrow' on Turbulent Indigo is a completely different version. The version on Travelogue sounds excellent, regardless of whether it's compressed or not.

 

[lindsayt]

£2000 over 14 years is £0.39 per day. Would you pay £0.39 per day to have immaculate new speakers and be the first owner?

Given a choice I'd rather own hi-fi equipment that would pay me 40p per day if I sold it.

Just like buying a house that will pay the owner a certain amount of money per day.

And, as LDTM quite rightly says, it's all about "the emotional pleasure we derive from the hobby and listening to music that is key". Being the first owner of a pair of speakers will not you give you any more musical pleasure than being the second, third, fourth or fifth owner.

And if, for whatever reason, you have a preference for having new shiny consumer goods in your house, then buying used still makes more sense as there are so many used items of hi-fi equipment that are indistinguishable from new. In a sighted test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

[LDTM]

You raise a valid point regarding position in the ownership chain.

As for used goods being indistinguishable from new, you may well be right. Still, if the buyer is not favourable located (as in my case) it's not quite as easy to find such quality kit.

Say, however, that a pair of Venere S came up and were as good as new in the strict sense of the word: it would be foolish at least not to consider them. If a warranty is still valid, even better. In such a case it would put into sharp focus what premium an individual attaches to being the first owner; there is a utility in that. Whether that premium is worth paying or not - I suppose it comes down to personal preferences.

 

[Al ears]

You raise a valid point regarding position in the ownership chain.

As for used goods being indistinguishable from new, you may well be right. Still, if the buyer is not favourable located (as in my case) it's not quite as easy to find such quality kit.

Say, however, that a pair of Venere S came up and were as good as new in the strict sense of the word: it would be foolish at least not to consider them. If a warranty is still valid, even better. In such a case it would put into sharp focus what premium an individual attaches to being the first owner; there is a utility in that. Whether that premium is worth paying or not - I suppose it comes down to personal preferences.

You bring up a valid point about second-hand buying and that is, quite often, the inability to audition, although you may be able to get to audition a new version of that item, you are unlikely to be able to take something second-hand home to audition. I wouldn't worry too much about warranty, this is more a buying from new thing, as many warranties are not transferable.

 

[lindsayt]

Buy at the right price - so that your equipment pays you 40p per day if you sell it - and auditioning before buying is irrelevant.

Auditioning at dealers leaves you up to the mercy of whatever else the dealer happens to stock, plus whatever you own already and are happy to take to the dealer. Dealers have woefully limited product ranges. Making dealer auditions all too often a Hobson's choice.

This is where meet-ups and bake-offs come in.

 

[LDTM]

Evening everyone,

An unexpected trip to Osaka left me with a day to bumble around and see what I could find. Sadly, because it was the end of a certain holiday period quite a few of the high end specialists were shut but I still got to listen to fair range of kit. Not necessarily stuff I was keen enough to consider purchasing, but products that have been talked about and featured here. Still, a good day out and I managed to find a pair of 12AX7 tubes for my little kit downstairs so all in all, quite pleasing. Highlights:

New B&W 800 series: Stand-mount and first floorstander. Very crisp presentation, almost no discernable difference in the balance between the two (excluding the bass of course) so they would work very well together in a (very high end) home theatre set up. Glad I had a chance to listen to it, but not sorely tempted.

Kef R900 (I think): First time hearing the UniQ driver. Imaging is very good, definite impression of an invisible centre. Treble was softer than the B&Ws so perhaps less fatiguing in the long term but that's only conjecture - short listening test. Interesting.

JBL - a whole raft of studio monitors & Tannoy's Prestige range: Horn tweeters just aren't my thing, sorry. Prestige range is certainly pretty enough though.

ATC SMC 11: First time I'd had a chance to listen to these. Very musical. I understand why they are used for monitoring: you hear everything. I can also understand why they are accused of being clinical/straight laced. With these, I think of Max Planck (reference will make sense in minute). One thing that bugged me though, the badge on one of the speakers wasn't straight and this left me thinking, 'Dude, if you don't take to time to bother getting your badge straight, then what does that say about your attention to detail elsewhere?'

Dali Epicon 2: Very close to ATCs level of detail retrieval but more enthusiasm in the presentation. With these I think of Einstein (yes, that picture with the epic hair and tongue poking out). Given the choice, I'd rather have the Dalis over the ATC.

Dali Rubicon 6: Most preferred speaker of the day. That hybrid tweeter assembly works well with my ears and the balance throughout the spectrum felt 'right'.

Still, from what I've heard I'm still leaning towards the Sonus Fabers as a viable replacement for the 'twins'.

Non-audio related observation about Osaka 'Nihonbashi' area: it really surprised me how frequently one would pass (and I really mean 'pass' - no insinuations otherwise thank-you-very-much, Vladimir ) an adult DVD shop whose direct neighbour happened to be specialist retailer of security cameras... one wonders...