So who won the great bake off?

[luckylion100]

It pays to read closely. The DM 10s were used with a subwoofer.

I think people forget that this is just one passive speaker that bettered the AVIs. In practice, there are many, many more both passive and active, which will sound better than the AVIs. That's not decrying those who love them at all: like me with my Sonus Fabers, they've found the ideal speaker for them. I'm well aware there are lots better than mine, and have heard quite a few, but nothing that makes me want to change. If the sound is satisfying, that's all that counts, it doesn't have to be perfect, since that really doesn't exist in the HiFi world.

It would also pay for the enthusiasts to be a little more sceptical of the sales manager's claims. In some cases he is simply wrong, for instance in his comments on the Sentrys, while other times he tries to dismiss people's opinions by implying it was lindsayt's forceful character that caused the PA speaker (his terms) to win. He is a salesman, after all.

I think this discussion is extremely interesting. Let me just say that. I think it's only good to disagree, if it's done in a civil manner!

Concerning the thing that there are "many, many speakers" that will sound better than the AVIs: You're obviously right. But my experience is that speakers have certain "weight classes": Speakers of a comparable design will often sound roughly similar. Small two-ways with dome drivers have certain characteristics. Horn speakers with compression drivers have certain characteristics. Electrostats have certain characteristics. Dipoles have certain characteristics. Etc. Within these "weight classes", I certainly think we can speak of some speakers as being better than others. If a large number of listeners prefer some speakers to others, it is a testament to the fact that it's well-made, at least. (and then you can back that up with measurements etc, if you want)

As I've stated a couple of times, the DM10s are not the best speakers I've heard - or, it's not the system that has suited my ears the best. That prize would have to go to a DIY horn system with compression drivers. I also think that some other speaker designs - the LX521 of Siegfried Linkwitz - sound better. I've also heard one other small-ish box speaker that sounded better to me, the Kii Three. But compared to almost all other small two-way dome speakers that I've heard, I think the AVIs are among the absolute best. In their own weight class - a relatively affordable, small speaker - I think they will be very hard to beat. But they do need a sub, no doubt about that.

This discussion has at times reminded me of a conversation akin to declaring the Greatest boxer Of All Time or perhaps the best Pound for Pound out there (perhaps easier to liken to this topic to PFP/VFM)... Some of it is totally irrelevant to me, some of it seemingly impossible to prove but a topic that could be never ending because despite the science continually being quoted most of it is based on personal likes/dislikes and the need for exposure to the many different speakers types/systems, some of which many of us haven't had the pleasure of experiencing first hand. As in all walks of life there's always faster, stronger, fitter, better, bigger out there... ;-)

I'm glad others have mentioned it now, The DM10's to my thinking are designed to be used with a sub (in many home environments). I bought mine as such, just as the ATC's need a decent amp to feed them. We're buying into systems not just speakers in isolation. I can't wait to add a decent sub, I'm using a cheapo one at present, experimenting...

In my cave of musical isolation I'm very happy with my set up as I'm sure each and every one of you are. Call me blissfully happy in my state of musical ignorance. Happy listening.

 

[luckylion100]

Horned speakers like the EV Patrician 800's are about as tonally neutral as you can get if you look at the whole picture between 20 hz and 20 khz. They've done this by going huge - 30" drivers - and by using the corners of the room as part of a rudimentary bass horn. The Patricians are not fatiguing speakers to listen to (I usually use them with the Korneff amp).

Never heard of them before, much less heard them. But they look completely and mindblowingly kick-ass. Congrats on having some of the coolest speakers I've ever seen.

Mansion, warehouse or castle to house those monsters. But yes impressive and rather imposing.

 

[Andrewjvt]

 

Estimated cost of materials

Construction Plans .................................................... $1554 Tweeters, 4 Midranges, 4 Woofers ....................  $1600Wiring, connectors, passive xo, speaker cables ..  $200Wood, screws, glue, paint .......................................  $200    miniDSP 4x10HD ....................................................  $520----------------------------------------------------  Subtotal   $2675 6x180W Power amplifier ........................................  $1850---------------------------------------------------------- Total   $4525

Not bad price but im sticking to my original k100s as ive heard them. After that who knows

Ps i thought it was an active speaker?

 

[ellisdj]

Noone has sniffed at $1600 for wiring

 

[Electro]

Estimated cost of materials

Construction Plans .................................................... $1554 Tweeters, 4 Midranges, 4 Woofers .................... $1600Wiring, connectors, passive xo, speaker cables .. $200Wood, screws, glue, paint ....................................... $200 miniDSP 4x10HD .................................................... $520---------------------------------------------------- Subtotal $2675 6x180W Power amplifier ........................................ $1850---------------------------------------------------------- Total $4525

Not bad price but im sticking to my original k100s as ive heard them. After that who knows

Ps i thought it was an active speaker?

Westlake also do active versions of their speakers, at a price! *shok*

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Professional_Series/sm-1.html

 

[Frank Harvey]

You don't get much warranty with these big ugly buggers do you...

 

[Electro]

You don't get much warranty with these big ugly buggers do you...

You're right only a year !

I think I will stick with PMC with a 20 year warranty. *smile*

Mind you looking at the list of pro users they must be bl@@dy good and reliable.

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/User_List/user_list.html

 

[Frank Harvey]

I bet studios get treated well though...

 

[ellisdj]

Do they get the Westlake Audio Cable Muff thrown in for free?

 

[oivavoi10]

Yes they are active. In the sense that they have an active crossover. But both the amplifiers and the crossover are external, they are not built into the cabinet of the speaker. If you build it yourself, Linkwitz recommends a box from minidsp. If you purchase it as a ready-built speaker, it comes with a single box that has both amplifiers and crossover/dsp built into it.

 

[davedotco]

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/User_List/user_list.html[/url]

There is still a requirement for big f**k of recording monitors as these and others show.

It is still easy to see the develovement from the 'classic' two/three ways of the 70s. The twin bass drivers have been upped to 18inch, allowing a smaller mid bass cone driver to fill the gap up to the big 4 inch compressiondriver/horn which is simply the old design using the latest components. The 1.75 in unit covers the high frequencies with the super tweeter adding 'air' to the top octave.

Nothing new here, though I would expect that the crossover is something special as they are claiming a linear phase response over a wide bandwidth. A clever trick given such a diverse range of drive units.

 

[steve_1979]

to be fair Steve, there's another AVI forum member steve-z.. he prefers Gemini II over Avi sub as BK " does not appear to excite the room boom problems which led to my selling the AVI sub"

True.

But he's the exception to the rule rather than the the norm. It's probably due to a particular issue with his rooms acoustics which are excited by a larger/deeper sub hence the smaller sub works best for him. Everyone else (as far as I'm aware) say the ADM9/DM10s sound best with the AVI sub.

I've only ever used the AVI one so would be interested to hear just how much difference it makes compared to other subs. My guess is that it probably wouldn't be all that much TBH.

 

[shadders]

Earlier in the thread HG said that the DM10 us a near standard OEM driver. This is not true.

On the left is a OEM driver that was modified to AVIs specification and was used int he ADM9. On the right is a custom made driver designed from scratch specially for the DM10.

Hi,

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Romulus]

The bake off was very interesting, and for the system incuding the EV Sentry 111 raised interests from all three participants. However I have heard the DM10's in audition and they are certainly not flat and boring as has been mentioned in this thread. For me they do very well in many aspects of sonic quality, from the thread it has been mentioned that EV Sentry reproduction of the violin sound very direct and quite realistic but what about other things as depth, soundstage, rhythm, clarity, distortion. Can the EV play well all genre of music? Also can they be used for long periods, I ask this since Lindsay implied they are not smooth like the AVI active system?

 

[steve_1979]

Hi,

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

Regards,

Shadders.

Sorry?

I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not sure what specific question you're trying to ask here.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

Regards,

Shadders.

Sorry?

I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not sure what specific question you're trying to ask here.

Hi,

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[steve_1979]

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

You'll have to ask Ash for the exact details. But as far as I'm aware every single part of the DM10 driver is a totally unique design. I think the only exception to this might be the chassis.

Interesting fact: They couldn't use the chassis from SB Acoustics top of the range Satori drivers because the huge magnet that AVI needed for the DM10 driver wouldn't fit onto it.

 

[davedotco]

Hi,

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

Regards,

Shadders.

Sorry?

I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not sure what specific question you're trying to ask here.

Hi,

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

A conventional 6.5 inch driver is made up of many components, all of which can be specified separately.

The 'basket' (frame) magnet size, coil diameter, gap size, coil type, cone, etc, etc, can all be specified separately, so it is perfectly possible to build a unique, 'custom' driver out of what are, effectively, stock parts.

If the driver specified in this way is only supplied to one customer, then it is, in effect a custom unit.

For example, if a magnet assembly normally used on a bigger basket is modified to fit a smaller basket then maybe only the fitting bolts need to be relocated, this is then a 'custom' driver. I have no specific knowledge of the AVI driver, but I do know how quality drive units are built and the variations that can be made.

 

[shadders]

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

You'll have to ask Ash for the exact details. But as far as I'm aware every single part of the DM10 driver is a totally unique design. I think the only exception to this might be the chassis.

Interesting fact: They couldn't use the chassis from SB Acoustics top of the range Satori drivers because the huge magnet that AVI needed for the DM10 driver wouldn't fit onto it.

Hi,

OK - so unique design except the chassis, but could not use the top of the range Satori chassis due to the magnet used.

So, this may mean :

1. Cost of neodymium is much higher than ferrite, so the magnet used on the DM10 driver is ferrite.

2. Ferrite magnets are "possibly" greater in size than neodymium magnets for the same flux density, hence a bigger chassis is required.

3. The Satori chassis which is top of the range is usually coupled with neodymium magnets, but since DM10 uses ferrite, then a lower range chassis is used to accommodate the bigger magnet.

4. DM10 driver uses lower cost materials - which is still engineering wise, acceptable. Could mean a drop in sensitivity, or same sensitivity, or possibly higher sensitivity (if the magnet is much bigger).

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

Hi,

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

Regards,

Shadders.

Sorry?

I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not sure what specific question you're trying to ask here.

Hi,

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

A conventional 6.5 inch driver is made up of many components, all of which can be specified separately.

The 'basket' (frame) magnet size, coil diameter, gap size, coil type, cone, etc, etc, can all be specified separately, so it is perfectly possible to build a unique, 'custom' driver out of what are, effectively, stock parts.

If the driver specified in this way is only supplied to one customer, then it is, in effect a custom unit.

For example, if a magnet assembly normally used on a bigger basket is modified to fit a smaller basket then maybe only the fitting bolts need to be relocated, this is then a 'custom' driver. I have no specific knowledge of the AVI driver, but I do know how quality drive units are built and the variations that can be made.

Hi,

Thanks. In essence a custom driver is a variation on existing components.

I had transformers made and they were custom - still roughly the same cost as an off the shelf unit.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[steve_1979]

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

You'll have to ask Ash for the exact details. But as far as I'm aware every single part of the DM10 driver is a totally unique design. I think the only exception to this might be the chassis.

Interesting fact: They couldn't use the chassis from SB Acoustics top of the range Satori drivers because the huge magnet that AVI needed for the DM10 driver wouldn't fit onto it.

Hi,

OK - so unique design except the chassis, but could not use the top of the range Satori chassis due to the magnet used.

So, this may mean :

1. Cost of neodymium is much higher than ferrite, so the magnet used on the DM10 driver is ferrite.

2. Ferrite magnets are "possibly" greater in size than neodymium magnets for the same flux density, hence a bigger chassis is required.

3. The Satori chassis which is top of the range is usually coupled with neodymium magnets, but since DM10 uses ferrite, then a lower range chassis is used to accommodate the bigger magnet.

4. DM10 driver uses lower cost materials - which is still engineering wise, acceptable. Could mean a drop in sensitivity, or same sensitivity, or possibly higher sensitivity (if the magnet is much bigger).

Regards,

Shadders.

As I say; you'd be better off asking these questions directly to AVI. Either Ash or Martin will be able to answer them considerably better than I could.

What I can confirm is that the DM10 driver is both better performing and more expensive than SB Acoustics own top of the range 6.5" Satori driver.

 

[steve_1979]

Most of you will have already seen this on the AVI forum but I think it's worth posting here too for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Earlier in the thread HG said that the DM10 uses a near standard OEM driver. This is not true.

On the left is a OEM driver that was modified to AVIs specification and was used int he ADM9. On the right is a custom made driver designed from scratch specially for the DM10.

 

[davedotco]

Hi,

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

Regards,

Shadders.

Sorry?

I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not sure what specific question you're trying to ask here.

Hi,

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

A conventional 6.5 inch driver is made up of many components, all of which can be specified separately.

The 'basket' (frame) magnet size, coil diameter, gap size, coil type, cone, etc, etc, can all be specified separately, so it is perfectly possible to build a unique, 'custom' driver out of what are, effectively, stock parts.

If the driver specified in this way is only supplied to one customer, then it is, in effect a custom unit.

For example, if a magnet assembly normally used on a bigger basket is modified to fit a smaller basket then maybe only the fitting bolts need to be relocated, this is then a 'custom' driver. I have no specific knowledge of the AVI driver, but I do know how quality drive units are built and the variations that can be made.

Hi,

Thanks. In essence a custom driver is a variation on existing components.

I had transformers made and they were custom - still roughly the same cost as an off the shelf unit.

Regards,

Shadders.

Within the limits of the tooling available to the manufacturer, that is pretty much what happens.

There are so many possible variations, even using standard components. Alloy magnets tend to be more expensive and more compact, in some setups that might be important, but ferrite is cheaper and more stable over time, there is little, if any advantage by using alloy magnets on cone drivers.

Back in the day, ATC would wind coils by hand for their early dome midrange drivers, numbers were at that time, quite small. We also specified a special version of their 12 in driver as a mid bass driver, others a special 'Long Coil' bass driver, none of these 're-invented the wheel' but produced 'custom designs' for specific applications.

 

[hg]

Earlier in the thread HG said that the DM10 us a near standard OEM driver. This is not true.

On the left is a OEM driver that was modified to AVIs specification and was used int he ADM9. On the right is a custom made driver designed from scratch specially for the DM10.

Interesting post. This is the standard driver and I will leave it as an exercise whether it looks more like the one on the right or left and perhaps to work what the marketing is seeking to do. As a further check one can compare the frequency response with the one shown in the DM10 specs. The latter plot is overly smoothed but one can see the details line up but with one or two differences like the main cone breakup being significantly larger on the AVI version of the driver. My guess is that it has a beefier motor because the standard driver would like a significantly bigger box than the DM10. Has AVI posted about the modifications?

OK - what does a custom driver mean, indicate or prove ?.

Near standard OEM driver, does sound like a modified driver.

Designed from scratch - they look similar in design - magnet, cone, probably has a voice coil etc. So in essence, specific parameters will have been specified - but what does all this mean ?

The most basic custom driver is obtained by paying the driver manufacturer extra not to put their label on an off-the-shelf driver. The next level is to pay a bit more to put a different label on instead.

But most often a speaker manufacturer wants a modification so the driver better fits their intended cabinet. Speaker DIYers and manufacturers that are not particularly bothered have to design their cabinets to fit off-the-shelf drivers. All the parts that go into assembling a driver (e.g. cone, suspension, coil, magnet, etc...) are available off-the-shelf from other manufacturers . You or I could instruct a shop in Asia to assemble a custom driver to our design from standard parts and ship a batch for not much more than the price of off-the-shelf drivers. For example, this DIYer did that here and you can buy it here for a modest sum. SB are a large company and will make some of the parts internally themselves like their paper cone but they very like to order some of the others from specialist manufacturers.

In order for a custom driver to be exclusive to a speaker manufactuer they need to own the copyright for the design. Tooling to make a custom basket is expensive and so what often happens is the manufacturer will make the tooling for the basket so long as the speaker manufacturer orders at least X number of drivers per year. If they have a bad year and order less then driver manufacturer gets the copyright and can sell the custom driver to others.

 

[shadders]

OK - it seems that you were confirming a statement of another poster.

My text was referring to the designed from scratch statement. The general design of a speaker used is the same, all that can be modified are the parameters of the system, be it voicecoil length, impedance, cone doping to change resonances, magnet design to change sensitivity (if that is what you need to change to improve sensitivity - i am not sure). etc. So, designed from scratch is really specifying specific parameters ?.

I am not sure - hence the question - what does it al mean.

Regards,

Shadders.

You'll have to ask Ash for the exact details. But as far as I'm aware every single part of the DM10 driver is a totally unique design. I think the only exception to this might be the chassis.

Interesting fact: They couldn't use the chassis from SB Acoustics top of the range Satori drivers because the huge magnet that AVI needed for the DM10 driver wouldn't fit onto it.

Hi,

OK - so unique design except the chassis, but could not use the top of the range Satori chassis due to the magnet used.

So, this may mean :

1. Cost of neodymium is much higher than ferrite, so the magnet used on the DM10 driver is ferrite.

2. Ferrite magnets are "possibly" greater in size than neodymium magnets for the same flux density, hence a bigger chassis is required.

3. The Satori chassis which is top of the range is usually coupled with neodymium magnets, but since DM10 uses ferrite, then a lower range chassis is used to accommodate the bigger magnet.

4. DM10 driver uses lower cost materials - which is still engineering wise, acceptable. Could mean a drop in sensitivity, or same sensitivity, or possibly higher sensitivity (if the magnet is much bigger).

Regards,

Shadders.

As I say; you'd be better off asking these questions directly to AVI. Either Ash or Martin will be able to answer them considerably better than I could.

What I can confirm is that the DM10 driver is both better performing and more expensive than SB Acoustics own top of the range 6.5" Satori driver.

Hi,

Thanks. I checked Falcon Acoustics - they only have a single Satori 15cm - which i think is 6.5" - cost is just above £116 (SB Acoustics Satori MW16P-8 Midwoofer). I assume AVI obtain a discount for volume, and the falcon acoustics markup does not apply.

Regards,

Shadders.