I think when Ash recalls headphones it is because of DM10s tonal balance... put an open back Sennheiser HD series over ears and DM10s are on pair.. smoothness, clarity and even distribution of frequencies are very similar.
It pays to read closely. The DM 10s were used with a subwoofer.steve_1979 said:
I think people forget that this is just one passive speaker that bettered the AVIs. In practice, there are many, many more both passive and active, which will sound better than the AVIs. That's not decrying those who love them at all: like me with my Sonus Fabers, they've found the ideal speaker for them. I'm well aware there are lots better than mine, and have heard quite a few, but nothing that makes me want to change. If the sound is satisfying, that's all that counts, it doesn't have to be perfect, since that really doesn't exist in the HiFi world.
It would also pay for the enthusiasts to be a little more sceptical of the sales manager's claims. In some cases he is simply wrong, for instance in his comments on the Sentrys, while other times he tries to dismiss people's opinions by implying it was lindsayt's forceful character that caused the PA speaker (his terms) to win. He is a salesman, after all.
avole said:
All companies have sales men and say things to entice sales - thats their job.
Dont you think that in the 45 years since the ev sentrys were made and all the 5 star speaker reviews from what hifi etc since (each new model better than the last) and only for some really old speakers to sound very good.
Also regardless of how avi are marketed they sound very good and offer a very high end sound for very good money.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Davedotco's post completely misses the very basic, common sense reason why many compression driven speakers are not tonally neutral or sound fatiguing.
Just as he got it totally wrong (to my ears over several years of listening to compression driven speakers as well as conventional coned speakers) on real world transient distortion. IE compression drivers actually produce less real world audible transient distortion than conventional drivers - NOT MORE as he stated.
The basic reason for quite a few horned systems being light in the bass is the basic sensitivity of compression drivers and horns. What do you do with the bass? You could use a compression driver and horn. But you'd need a crazily huge one. There are pictures on the internet of people with horns that start in the back garden and end up taking up an entire wall of their listening room.
The pragmatic solution for turn-key commercially sold horned speakers has been to use conventional cones. There are quite a variety of approaches that are used. They are all a compromise between size, bass quality, bass quantity, too low a bass impedance and not padding down the upper frequency drivers too much.
We all have different ears and different tastes. I find speakers that are lean in the bass fatiguing. I also find them uninvolving to listen to as they filter out too much of the bass - bass drums and bass guitars on the sort of music Iisten to most.
Klipsch Heresys. Great (for the cost) wide open midrange and treble. Too lean and unextended in the bass for me - because of the particular compromises made in their design. For my tastes - on tracks like Denise by Blondie (12" single version) I find them sounding uninvolving and fatiguing. It's the somewhat transistor radio type tonal balance.
AVI DM9's that I heard without sub. Again too lean in the bass. Too uninvolving on tracks like Denise. There's a high chance I'd find the DM10's without sub to have the same problem.
EV Sentry III's. As I've already said in this thread, are about 2 dbs too low in the bass - TO MY EARS. Over extended listening sessions - especially if I'm listening to a lot of female focal Loudness Wars compressed 21 st century CD's - with the Creek amplifier - yes I do find them more fatiguing than my 2 favourite speakers in my house. With the Korneff clone amplifier and have - so far not got fatigued in any listening sessions yet. But I must stress that at home I rarely use the Sentries for listening to music. The vast majority of the time they are used for watching TV and DVD's and Blu rays. For music I use my Bozak Symphonies and my EV Patrician 800's. Each of which have better bass than the Sentries. Although the Bozaks have worse midrange.
Anyway, the simple reason that many horned systems are not tonally neutral is that you're just hearing the compromises that have been made in matching conventional cones with compression drivers from an efficiency point of view.
But then most conventional coned and domed speakers are a long way from being tonally neutral too.
Horned speakers like the EV Patrician 800's are about as tonally neutral as you can get if you look at the whole picture between 20 hz and 20 khz. They've done this by going huge - 30" drivers - and by using the corners of the room as part of a rudimentary bass horn. The Patricians are not fatiguing speakers to listen to (I usually use them with the Korneff amp).
Just as he got it totally wrong (to my ears over several years of listening to compression driven speakers as well as conventional coned speakers) on real world transient distortion. IE compression drivers actually produce less real world audible transient distortion than conventional drivers - NOT MORE as he stated.
The basic reason for quite a few horned systems being light in the bass is the basic sensitivity of compression drivers and horns. What do you do with the bass? You could use a compression driver and horn. But you'd need a crazily huge one. There are pictures on the internet of people with horns that start in the back garden and end up taking up an entire wall of their listening room.
The pragmatic solution for turn-key commercially sold horned speakers has been to use conventional cones. There are quite a variety of approaches that are used. They are all a compromise between size, bass quality, bass quantity, too low a bass impedance and not padding down the upper frequency drivers too much.
We all have different ears and different tastes. I find speakers that are lean in the bass fatiguing. I also find them uninvolving to listen to as they filter out too much of the bass - bass drums and bass guitars on the sort of music Iisten to most.
Klipsch Heresys. Great (for the cost) wide open midrange and treble. Too lean and unextended in the bass for me - because of the particular compromises made in their design. For my tastes - on tracks like Denise by Blondie (12" single version) I find them sounding uninvolving and fatiguing. It's the somewhat transistor radio type tonal balance.
AVI DM9's that I heard without sub. Again too lean in the bass. Too uninvolving on tracks like Denise. There's a high chance I'd find the DM10's without sub to have the same problem.
EV Sentry III's. As I've already said in this thread, are about 2 dbs too low in the bass - TO MY EARS. Over extended listening sessions - especially if I'm listening to a lot of female focal Loudness Wars compressed 21 st century CD's - with the Creek amplifier - yes I do find them more fatiguing than my 2 favourite speakers in my house. With the Korneff clone amplifier and have - so far not got fatigued in any listening sessions yet. But I must stress that at home I rarely use the Sentries for listening to music. The vast majority of the time they are used for watching TV and DVD's and Blu rays. For music I use my Bozak Symphonies and my EV Patrician 800's. Each of which have better bass than the Sentries. Although the Bozaks have worse midrange.
Anyway, the simple reason that many horned systems are not tonally neutral is that you're just hearing the compromises that have been made in matching conventional cones with compression drivers from an efficiency point of view.
But then most conventional coned and domed speakers are a long way from being tonally neutral too.
Horned speakers like the EV Patrician 800's are about as tonally neutral as you can get if you look at the whole picture between 20 hz and 20 khz. They've done this by going huge - 30" drivers - and by using the corners of the room as part of a rudimentary bass horn. The Patricians are not fatiguing speakers to listen to (I usually use them with the Korneff amp).
That I think most of the comments of Ashley James on the AVI forum are heavily misinformed. Assuming that they're two ways, etc. Was just asking Dave whether he thought Ashley might have been right on this point.
As I've already stated, a horn system with compression drivers is the best I've ever heard, bar none. I'm still open to objective explanations as to why. I won't rule out personally that there's some harmonic distortion I like going on there. I also like tube amps and vinyl btw, and I'm fully aware that digital music and modern class D (say Hypex) produce less distortion and probably higher fidelity.
As I've already stated, a horn system with compression drivers is the best I've ever heard, bar none. I'm still open to objective explanations as to why. I won't rule out personally that there's some harmonic distortion I like going on there. I also like tube amps and vinyl btw, and I'm fully aware that digital music and modern class D (say Hypex) produce less distortion and probably higher fidelity.
oivavoi10 said:
Thank-you for raising that.
I would like to say a few things that I think are important.
I am very much aware of what AJ and other people have been saying about this bake-off on the AVI forum.
Ashley James really is acting like bad loser.
For years he's been coming out with marketing lies / untruths about how his active speakers sound better than EVERY passive speaker.
He has told these lies so much and for so long that he can't back down now.
That thread on the AVI forum is comedy gold. In the first page and quarter I spotted about 20 things that were factually incorrect on it.
I think that Daniel Quinn and Joe summed up that AVI thread nicely when they said (on the Hi-fi Subjectivist forum):
I am amused by all the kerfuffle of 3 people expressing a preference.
I am even more amused at the attempts of those people who do not like the opinions expressed , to undermine them.
Lt is used to his speakers and is this incapable of hearing anything better! [jcbrum ] **** poor logic that if true would apply to everybody .
LT is a forcefull character and thus by implication forced the other 2 to share his opinion [ Arsey james ]LT may know what he likes and likes what he knows ,but he is the least forceful character on this forum . Most of his posts are seeking opinions not offering one .
High levels of distortion on transient signals from compression drivers? Says who?davedotco said:
Based on what measurements from what trustable source?
Based on what listening tests that you have personally done davedotco?
One of the themes of this bake-off has been just because someone says something on the internet, doesn't mean to say it's true.
And that applies to everything I say, which is why I always encourage each of you to do your own tests and to make up your own minds.
The moving part of a compression driver - the thing that actually produces the sound - has less mass than any equivalent conventional cone or dome. In addition the horn loading results in better coupling / gearing (whatever technical term you want to use) of the low density compressible fluid that we all call the air in front of the speaker and therefore the air in the room.
A side effect of this much lower inertia and better coupling is the much higher efficiency. The 1824M driver in the EV's is about 80 to 100 times more efficient than the AVI mid-bass unit turning electricity into sound.
This was fully refelcted in the sound quality - TO MY EARS - at the bake-off. In the midrange, the AVI's sounded as if they had a relatively slow and ponderous driver. That they weren't able to react to transients as well as the EV's. That they weren't able to give us all the little bits of detail that are there on the recording that add up to make the difference between sounding like you're listening to an audio system and sounding like you're listening to a singer there in the room with real musicians playing real instruments there in the room. And the AVI's weren't able to fully recreate the recorded acoustic - the little clues that tell us that the recording was done live in a large echoey hall - or that the recording engineer has used an EMT type reverb machine to add a bit of artificial acoustic.
Lack of neutrality in horned speakers next...
oivavoi10 said:
Distortion due to the compression of the air being nonlinear only becomes significant at high pressures. If you use a pair of huge old horn speakers in a domestic room at standard levels they will be "idling" and distortion from this source will be low and very likely inaudible. You need to turn them up to normally hear distortion from this source.
However, large horns with compression drivers are rarely used in studio monitors these days despite size and cost being typically less of a concern than it is in the home. Deep horns suffer from internal reflections and compression drivers tend to suffer a few resonances that cannot be adequately controlled and their high output is not really needed. A shallower horn/waveguide with a dome or cone driver provides enough directivity control, enough SPL, reduces levels of driver distortion compared to a flat baffle, is smaller and controls resonances better. It currently seems to be somewhere near the optimum configuration for a high fidelity speaker in the studio or home. Vary to taste.
And one thing I forgot to mention was that Quad Electrostatics sound better - TO MY EARS - for string quartet / chamber music / small orchestra type music.lindsayt said:
As I keep saying - no item of audio equipment that I've ever heard has been sonically best at everything.
All anyone can do is pick the compromises that they are happiest.
If they're into music or hi-fi in a big way I'd strongly recommend they do that by listening to a wide variety of equipment and make up their own minds and do not let themselves be swayed by me, davedotco, Ashley James, Ivor Tiefenbrun nor anyone else. Or at least not until they've tried enough things to realise who they want to listen to on the internet world and who they don't want to listen to.
oivavoi10 said:
The way that the ear and brain react to distortion is very interesting. Physically, the ear is a horn, the reverse of a hornloaded compression driver speaker, the form of which transforms/compresses the relatively large scale, low pressure variations in sound waves to higher pressures that drive the relatively tiny ear drum.
As I said above, air does not compress in a linear manner, so the ear itself produces harmonic distortion at higher pressures. We have come to associate this distortion with 'loudness' so a device that produces the 'right' kind of distortion will 'con' the ear into believing that the sound is louder than it is. That is, the perceived loudness will be higher than the measured SPL would normally dictate. The similarities (in reverse) of the horn loaded compression driver and ear canal and ear drum means that this subjective response is seemless.
As you say, similar effects can be heard from some valve amplifiers, as with horns steady state distortion may be pretty low but the distortion on transients is not, and mimics the response of the ear quite closely. Add to that the fact that musical instruments, in the main, rely on different harmonic structures for their 'character' and 'tone' and it becomes easy to see why added distortion, can in some cases, make an instrument sound 'more real' (an odd term, but I can think of none better).
There are other factors that cause distortion in speakers of this type, cut off frequency altering the loading, resulting in over excursion of diapragms, diffraction effects (from the horn) for example but these can be minimised by compedent engineering, harmonic distortion caused by the non linearity of air in compression is just physics.
hg said:
Steady state distortion is indeed very low but the distortion on transients is not and is clearly audible. Sure there are all kinds of factors that work into this but there is little doubt that the subjective 'impression' of larger than life reproduction is the result. Great fun though this kind of sound is (I grew up with it and love it) it is not particularly accurate.
As you say, the massive high level (horn loaded) recording monitors of the 70s began to be replaced by smaller more 'accurate' direct radiating models that could be used up close for mixing which brings us to the modern, usually active, near and midfield models that you mention. There is still a need for high output recording monitors though it depends a lot on the kind of recordings being made.
lpv said:
Ashley is claiming the tonal balance of the DM10s are on par with that of headphones? Intriguing. Presumably he considered the tonal balance of headphones to be good, some form of reference and not to vary from person to person?
Cost. They cost more to make. But not by a huge amount.David@FrankHarvey said:
Plus the compromises discussed in my previous post regarding tonal neutrality / size.
Looks. Horns are ugly.
My personal opinion, is that to do a turnkey commercial horned system well. About as well as can be done pragmatically - you have to go up to the size and manufacturing cost of something like the EV Patricians.
A compromise with speakers as big as the Patricians is that the drivers are spaced apart. That gives you a stilted frequency response if you want to place them on your desk and sit two feet away from them. Designs like the classic Urei speakers get around this by using dual concentric driver positioning.
To do it well from a DIY point of view you could do it by back garden into the house mega huge horns.
With ugliness, size, high manufacturing and transportation costs, you've got a speaker that's not as easy to market and sell in large numbers/
but was wondering what Rick from Musicraft views were regarding the bake off? Especially considering the relative poor form of the Hegel/ATC combo... be interesting to hear his thoughts.
avole said:
I think this discussion is extremely interesting. Let me just say that. I think it's only good to disagree, if it's done in a civil manner!
Concerning the thing that there are "many, many speakers" that will sound better than the AVIs: You're obviously right. But my experience is that speakers have certain "weight classes": Speakers of a comparable design will often sound roughly similar. Small two-ways with dome drivers have certain characteristics. Horn speakers with compression drivers have certain characteristics. Electrostats have certain characteristics. Dipoles have certain characteristics. Etc. Within these "weight classes", I certainly think we can speak of some speakers as being better than others. If a large number of listeners prefer some speakers to others, it is a testament to the fact that it's well-made, at least. (and then you can back that up with measurements etc, if you want)
As I've stated a couple of times, the DM10s are not the best speakers I've heard - or, it's not the system that has suited my ears the best. That prize would have to go to a DIY horn system with compression drivers. I also think that some other speaker designs - the LX521 of Siegfried Linkwitz - sound better. I've also heard one other small-ish box speaker that sounded better to me, the Kii Three. But compared to almost all other small two-way dome speakers that I've heard, I think the AVIs are among the absolute best. In their own weight class - a relatively affordable, small speaker - I think they will be very hard to beat. But they do need a sub, no doubt about that.
steve_1979
Well-known member
avole said:
In the bake off the DM10s were used with a BK Gemini II subwoofer. Although it's a good value subwoofer it is still just a compact £215 subwoofer not the larger £800 subwoofer that AVI have purposefully designed to acompany their ADM9/DM10 series of speakers.
Forum member fr0g owns both the AVI subwoofer and a massive BK XXLS400 subwoofer which is their 400 watt 12" subwoofer which cost £440. He says that where music is concerned the AVI subwoofer works better than the BK subwoofer.
Hence my comment suggesting that it would be interesting to compare the difference it makes when the DM10s are used with the matching AVI subwoofer that was specially designed to be used with these speakers. By all account that I've read using the AVI subwoofer with the ADM9/DM10 does make a positive difference when compared to using the ADM9/DM10 speakers with other subwoofers.
to be fair Steve, there's another AVI forum member steve-z.. he prefers Gemini II over Avi sub as BK " does not appear to excite the room boom problems which led to my selling the AVI sub"
oivavoi10 said:
His speakers really interest me. Ive looked on his site but in the short time cant make sense of the pricing.
If you know can you tell mevthe cost to build the big one please
Estimated cost of materials
Construction Plans .................................................... $155
4 Tweeters, 4 Midranges, 4 Woofers .................... $1600
Wiring, connectors, passive xo, speaker cables .. $200
Wood, screws, glue, paint ....................................... $200
miniDSP 4x10HD .................................................... $520
---------------------------------------------------- Subtotal $2675
6x180W Power amplifier ........................................ $1850
---------------------------------------------------------- Total $4525
Construction Plans .................................................... $155
4 Tweeters, 4 Midranges, 4 Woofers .................... $1600
Wiring, connectors, passive xo, speaker cables .. $200
Wood, screws, glue, paint ....................................... $200
miniDSP 4x10HD .................................................... $520
---------------------------------------------------- Subtotal $2675
6x180W Power amplifier ........................................ $1850
---------------------------------------------------------- Total $4525
lindsayt said:
Never heard of them before, much less heard them. But they look completely and mindblowingly kick-ass. Congrats on having some of the coolest speakers I've ever seen.
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