So, the truth is out.

[TrevC]

Sources: Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

I'm quite confident that I could put together system for £800 that, in a true blind test, at least 50% of 20 enthusiast listeners would find as good or better than Gazzip's.

In fact I'm so confident I'd bet my system against his on it.

PMC are very good at marketing if they sell many Fact 12s. The fact is that Fact 12s are clearly overpriced. What could possibly be in them that is worth anywhere near that much?

 

[TrevC]

For those that dismiss the notion that the quality of string on a tagged tea bag is important, I think you need to let them settle down. That's why I buy my teabags at least 6 months before I need to use them.

The ones without string blow the stringed ones away. Even my wife / lodger / neighbour can hear the difference in a blind test.

 

[Gaz37]

Sources:
 Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

 

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

I'm quite confident that I could put together system for £800 that, in a true blind test, at least 50% of 20 enthusiast listeners would find as good or better than Gazzip's.

In fact I'm so confident I'd bet my system against his on it.

PMC are very good at marketing if they sell many Fact 12s. The fact is that Fact 12s are clearly overpriced. What could possibly be in them that is worth anywhere near that much? 

You know, stuff, high quality things that sound good.

Pixie dust?

Unicorn hair?

Don't expect justification, it's expensive, therefore it must be better

 

[lindsayt]

Sources: Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

Jesus, really?! It's like you think I started at this price point and have no reference-point to establish what a £1000 system actually sounds like.

You also have no idea what my system sounds like so this exercise is pointless.

I have no doubt that your digital source would be better than anything I could come up with for less than £800. Your amplification and cabling and stands would probably be better too than those I'd have to put in a budget system.

I have listened to a number of speakers that are similar to yours. Haven't liked any of them. For £500 I can come up with speakers that I do like.

So it would all depend if the decisive battle was in the speakers or in the source and amplification.

I also have no doubt that your system would sound better than the majority of £1000 systems.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

PMC are very good at marketing if they sell many Fact 12s. The fact is that Fact 12s are clearly overpriced. What could possibly be in them that is worth anywhere near that much?

Nearly every hifi speaker brand will fix the price not only on the strict material fees, but on the reached result, and "how many the peoples are gonna pay for this result" (or sometimes "this image"). The Fact 8 is a really good speaker, and it is difficult to make really a better speaker than that. The only ones I heard that could be "a tiny little bit" better, are all located in the +10K range. And it's probably to make a statement, that PMC did this price. But please, don't forget that transmission line and 3 way speakers are a pain to set up and build. So the new setup for just adding a dedicated medium and changing the woofer gestion could be intensive and costly, and the tinyer amount that will sell will probably have some importance too.

 

[MajorFubar]

Nearly every hifi speaker brand will fix the price not only on the strict material fees, but on the reached result, and "how many the peoples are gonna pay for this result" (or sometimes "this image").

I agree with that. In fact the same goes for a lot of products, not just hifi. It's a myth that decent speakers must be ludicrously expensive to make. As a design, there's nothing difficult about them and not much has changed fundamentally since the very first ones, made well over a century ago. I'm not denying that more expensive speakers usually sound better, in fact I think that's true for speakers more than any other hifi component except maybe turntables. But I also think it's true that manufacturers price the speakers on how good they sound against peers in a similar price point, not on the end to end costs of making them and selling them to the punters.

Without making their own drivers, even independent manufacturers like IQ, EB Acoustics (RIP) and AVI can't completely circumvent that issue. To buy good quality drivers costs lots of £££. But if you delve down deep enough to the cost of making the actual components the drivers are made from (basket, magnet, voice coil, cone, and so on), the difference in manufacturing-costs between drivers costing £100 and £1000 won't even nearly account for the difference in retail price.

 

[ellisdj]

Sources: Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

 

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

Jesus, really?! It's like you think I started at this price point and have no reference-point to establish what a £1000 system actually sounds like.

You also have no idea what my system sounds like so this exercise is pointless. 

I have no doubt that your digital source would be better than anything I could come up with for less than £800. Your amplification and cabling and stands would probably be better too than those I'd have to put in a budget system.

I have listened to a number of speakers that are similar to yours. Haven't liked any of them. For £500 I can come up with speakers that I do like.

So it would all depend if the decisive battle was in the speakers or in the source and amplification.

 

I also have no doubt that your system would sound better than the majority of £1000 systems.

Lindsay you can't really judge on I don't like yours but I do like some for £500.
He might hate your £500 ones so then what is it a tie

I don't see why people get bent out of shape about others spending a lot on hifi kit and being happy and proud they have and own it.

For me it's irrelevant what boxes you own it's what the end result is like that's all that matters. But he wouldn't have bought them boxes if he didn't like them.

 

[Gazzip]

Lindsay you can't really judge on I don't like yours but I do like some for £500. He might hate your £500 ones so then what is it a tie

I don't see why people get bent out of shape about others spending a lot on hifi kit and being happy and proud they have and own it.

For me it's irrelevant what boxes you own it's what the end result is like that's all that matters. But he wouldn't have bought them boxes if he didn't like them.

The same reason that some people will run a coin down the side of an Aston Martin.

 

[lindsayt]

Sources: Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

Jesus, really?! It's like you think I started at this price point and have no reference-point to establish what a £1000 system actually sounds like.

You also have no idea what my system sounds like so this exercise is pointless.

I have no doubt that your digital source would be better than anything I could come up with for less than £800. Your amplification and cabling and stands would probably be better too than those I'd have to put in a budget system.

I have listened to a number of speakers that are similar to yours. Haven't liked any of them. For £500 I can come up with speakers that I do like.

So it would all depend if the decisive battle was in the speakers or in the source and amplification.

I also have no doubt that your system would sound better than the majority of £1000 systems.

Lindsay you can't really judge on I don't like yours but I do like some for £500. He might hate your £500 ones so then what is it a tie

I don't see why people get bent out of shape about others spending a lot on hifi kit and being happy and proud they have and own it.

For me it's irrelevant what boxes you own it's what the end result is like that's all that matters. But he wouldn't have bought them boxes if he didn't like them.

I can tell you specifically why I don't like the sound of speakers like the PMC Fact 12's.

Bass that doesn't time well, some dynamic compression with no particularly outstandingly good aspects to the sound quality to compensate for those shortcomings.

There's a high chance Gazzip would hate the speakers that I like for £500 - on the basis of looks, age and size. There's also a high chance that Gazzip would, however, rate my £500 speakers as sounding better than his - if he ever got them in an A/B demo.

I think this whole mindset that you have spend big to get the finest sound quality needs challenging.

That's why I've been chipping-in on this thread.

 

[ellisdj]

I think getting the best for the least is a fantastic goal.
Also just spending loads of money doesn't guarantee anything.

But in reverse just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's not worth the money.

Just whether the individual would pay it or not.

I would like to hear the pmc facts on the end of a good system like gazzip if there is an offer at any point.

Just recently I was going to demo them but I was already hooked on the new KEF reference. They are expensive also but to me they are worth the money I paid.

 

[Gazzip]

Sources: Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

Jesus, really?! It's like you think I started at this price point and have no reference-point to establish what a £1000 system actually sounds like.

You also have no idea what my system sounds like so this exercise is pointless.

I have no doubt that your digital source would be better than anything I could come up with for less than £800. Your amplification and cabling and stands would probably be better too than those I'd have to put in a budget system.

I have listened to a number of speakers that are similar to yours. Haven't liked any of them. For £500 I can come up with speakers that I do like.

So it would all depend if the decisive battle was in the speakers or in the source and amplification.

I also have no doubt that your system would sound better than the majority of £1000 systems.

Lindsay you can't really judge on I don't like yours but I do like some for £500. He might hate your £500 ones so then what is it a tie

I don't see why people get bent out of shape about others spending a lot on hifi kit and being happy and proud they have and own it.

For me it's irrelevant what boxes you own it's what the end result is like that's all that matters. But he wouldn't have bought them boxes if he didn't like them.

I can tell you specifically why I don't like the sound of speakers like the PMC Fact 12's.

Bass that doesn't time well, some dynamic compression with no particularly outstandingly good aspects to the sound quality to compensate for those shortcomings.

There's a high chance Gazzip would hate the speakers that I like for £500 - on the basis of looks, age and size. There's also a high chance that Gazzip would, however, rate my £500 speakers as sounding better than his - if he ever got them in an A/B demo.

I think this whole mindset that you have spend big to get the finest sound quality needs challenging.

That's why I've been chipping-in on this thread.

So what are these magical £500 boxes? You have cited them a great deal but not yet revealed a manufacturer and model. I am happy to take a pair on demo, try them side by side against the FACTs and report back.

I am a pragmatist - If they are as good as you say I will probably replace the FACTs with a pair and trouser the extra cash post-sale.

So? What are they? Edit - you aren't about to reccommend Klipschorns again are you, or other second hand exotica?

 

[Gazzip]

Sources: Innuos Zenith Server/Player; Esoteric X03SE CD player; Esoteric D-07X DAC; Project Xtension TT with Cadenza Black

​Amplification: ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue; Avid Pulsus phono stage; Ortofon ST-80SE Step up transformer

Speakers: PMC FACT 12

Cables & Stuff: Atlas Mavros; Audiophilebase Starbase support system

OK, hands up everyone that thinks they can come up with a system that will sound better than Gazzips for £800.

My hand is up (CD's only. To beat his analogue rig I think I'd need £1000). I guess there will be owners of 2nd AVI DM9's or 10's or with new DM5's will also put their hands up.

Of, course, what we think and what is the actual truth may be 2 different things...

Jesus, really?! It's like you think I started at this price point and have no reference-point to establish what a £1000 system actually sounds like.

You also have no idea what my system sounds like so this exercise is pointless.

I have no doubt that your digital source would be better than anything I could come up with for less than £800. Your amplification and cabling and stands would probably be better too than those I'd have to put in a budget system.

I have listened to a number of speakers that are similar to yours. Haven't liked any of them. For £500 I can come up with speakers that I do like.

So it would all depend if the decisive battle was in the speakers or in the source and amplification.

I also have no doubt that your system would sound better than the majority of £1000 systems.

Lindsay you can't really judge on I don't like yours but I do like some for £500. He might hate your £500 ones so then what is it a tie

I don't see why people get bent out of shape about others spending a lot on hifi kit and being happy and proud they have and own it.

For me it's irrelevant what boxes you own it's what the end result is like that's all that matters. But he wouldn't have bought them boxes if he didn't like them.

I can tell you specifically why I don't like the sound of speakers like the PMC Fact 12's.

Bass that doesn't time well, some dynamic compression with no particularly outstandingly good aspects to the sound quality to compensate for those shortcomings.

There's a high chance Gazzip would hate the speakers that I like for £500 - on the basis of looks, age and size. There's also a high chance that Gazzip would, however, rate my £500 speakers as sounding better than his - if he ever got them in an A/B demo.

I think this whole mindset that you have spend big to get the finest sound quality needs challenging.

That's why I've been chipping-in on this thread.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/cost-your-setup

Post #8 makes interesting reading... Obviously not a man who practices what he preaches.

 

[lindsayt]

My main system is a £10k one.

My A/V system is a £500 one for the audio side of the A/V. It includes EV Sentry III speakers.

My upstairs system is about a £4k system. It includes £500 speakers: Bozak Symphonys.

My kitchen system is a £400 one at the moment. It includes Sansui SP5500 speakers.

And yes of course the £500 speakers that I do like are only available 2nd hand. I cannot recommend any brand new speakers on the basis of sound per pounds spent.

 

[lpv]

honestly... would love to see your house

 

[chebby]

honestly... would love to see your house

There is a lot of it. (Ten bed victorian mansion IIRC.)

 

[Native_bon]

Hifi is one of those product areas were price in most cases will not always determine how well a system performs.
Think I got the to point now were I buy a older model product, just before or after the release of the newer one.

I love movies and music. If I want to say buy a set of speakers or an amp, why buy the very latest version when I can get a new older version faction of the original cost. That's me, that's the way I roll. Will not tell anyone else to do things my way.

Hifi is becoming a show off thing as suppose to really enjoying music?. Yes we are proud of what we have, but it seems like people are trying too hard to out do each other. We do not need to tell others what to buy or how to buy. Just do you. Of course advice can be given to those who are in need of it. If your system makes you happy that's all that matters really.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hifi is becoming a show off thing as suppose to really enjoying music?. Yes we are proud of what we have, but it seems like people are trying too hard to out do each other.

It's a forum thing. Although, just having the most expensive/unique/diverse/ products available doesn't necessarily make for the best sounding system.

We do not need to tell others what to buy or how to buy.

Agreed, but many still insist on doing so.

If your system makes you happy that's all that matters really.

Agreed. And I do believe when chosen correctly, most people do choose their systems this way. This does usually mean users go for preference over reference - rightly or wrongly, depending on your outlook.

 

[MajorFubar]

This does usually mean users go for preference over reference - rightly or wrongly, depending on your outlook.

I think that's inevitably true, because as we've long since established, there isn't a definative reference.

 

[nopiano]

This does usually mean users go for preference over reference - rightly or wrongly, depending on your outlook.

I think that's inevitably true, because as we've long since established, there isn't a definative reference.

We still have unamplified instruments and human voices don't we? You can tell a lot about a system from a voice via the BBC and, say, a decent piano recording.

 

[Gaz37]

Or does anybody else believe that there is a certain degree of dishonesty in hi end hifi?

If I got together £100 worth of components, stuck them in a fancy box costing another £50 I would feel guilty at asking £2000 for it even if my customers were happy with their purchase.

I know he's been used many times as a (bad) example but take Russ Andrews, he sells fuses for pounds that cost pence, self adhesive damping mat for £10 that costs 99p.
To me that is downright dishonest even if customers believe they're happy with their purchase.

 

[Native_bon]

The way I see it, many systems are not what they seem. Am very sure if everyone's hifi on this what Hifi forum is scrutinised for the human voice snare and piano, some less expensive ones may even do it better.

I have listened to a lot of expensive systems which just left me cold, and also some really jaw of the floor ones.

 

[MajorFubar]

We still have unamplified instruments and human voices don't we? You can tell a lot about a system from a voice via the BBC and, say, a decent piano recording.

That theoretically should be true, but if you think about all the steps between an instrument being recorded and you hearing it through your speakers, you'll realise you're aiming for a moving target. There is no one version of the truth to aim for.

Think of recording just solo piano. If you were stood next to the artist during the recording session and you could completely and perfectly memorise how it sounded for future comparison, that would be one version of the truth. If you were sat next to the recording engineer listening on the monitor speakers in the control room, that would be another version of the truth, because even by that point the live sound of the piano has been influenced by the microphones and all the gear it passes through to be recorded, and of course the sound signature of the monitor speakers. If you listen to the producer's final mix, that potentially would be another version of the truth, because he will add EQ, compression and other effects to reflect the sound he or his client is after. And if you listen to the mastering engineer's final master, that's potentially another version of the truth, because he's tasked with taking the producer's mix and making it marketable, and we all know songs and albums can have multiple masters which sound different to each other depending on the intended market and distribution medium.

By this stage, it's possible what's distributed is far removed from that listening experience you had when stood next to the artist. Or, more positively, and probably more likely with just solo piano, it could be as close as the producer and mastering engineer have been able to make it, depending on theirs and the client's preference. But you can't know. You can only know whether your system replays it a way you think is enjoyable and engaging and which seems to convey the emotion.

 

[RobM]

If, as suggested there is no or very little difference between cheap and expensive hifi.

Would I be right in thinking that a well put together cd,amp and speakers costing all in say £800 would perform as well as a system of say £5000

I'm a bit out of touch with the news. Who's suggested such a thing? And who's truth is this?

After owning many £1000 - £2000 systems, and then moving up to a system that cost £6700, and then a £13000 system that still didn't get me to where I wanted, then a £28000 system and finally a £60000 plus system, I can only laugh at such a statement. Though, unlike most people, I have no wife or neighbours. Maybe I'm missing something?

And without sounding arrogant, in the grand scheme of things, £5000 doesn't really get you very far. It just depends what you want. But if you want a system that can deal with dynamic range effortlessly and present a huge soundstage, accurately and within a large space, then you've got to spend a hell of a lot more than five grand.

Posts like this are the reason I don't contribute much on here. But I do find the forum as a whole rather amusing. Quite surprised that Gazzip even feels the need to. Fact 12's are amazing. I know. I owned a pair.

 

[Gazzip]

If, as suggested there is no or very little difference between cheap and expensive hifi.

Would I be right in thinking that a well put together cd,amp and speakers costing all in say £800 would perform as well as a system of say £5000

I'm a bit out of touch with the news. Who's suggested such a thing? And who's truth is this?

After owning many £1000 - £2000 systems, and then moving up to a system that cost £6700, and then a £13000 system that still didn't get me to where I wanted, then a £28000 system and finally a £60000 plus system, I can only laugh at such a statement. Though, unlike most people, I have no wife or neighbours. Maybe I'm missing something?

And without sounding arrogant, in the grand scheme of things, £5000 doesn't really get you very far. It just depends what you want. But if you want a system that can deal with dynamic range effortlessly and present a huge soundstage, accurately and within a large space, then you've got to spend a hell of a lot more than five grand.

Posts like this are the reason I don't contribute much on here. But I do find the forum as a whole rather amusing. Quite surprised that Gazzip even feels the need to. Fact 12's are amazing. I know. I owned a pair.

Where did you go from the Fact 12's, Rob? I came to the 12's from PMC BB5SE's. I had to downgrade due to a growing family and the associated space constraints. Good as the 12's are I do miss the effortlessness of those big boys. Wondering what the next step might be...

 

[Andrewjvt]

We still have unamplified instruments and human voices don't we?  You can tell a lot about a system from a voice via the BBC and, say, a decent piano recording.  

That theoretically should be true, but if you think about all the steps between an instrument being recorded and you hearing it through your speakers, you'll realise you're aiming for a moving target. There is no one version of the truth to aim for.

Think of recording just solo piano. If you were stood next to the artist during the recording session and you could completely and perfectly memorise how it sounded for future comparison, that would be one version of the truth. If you were sat next to the recording engineer listening on the monitor speakers in the control room, that would be another version of the truth, because even by that point the live sound of the piano has been influenced by the microphones and all the gear it passes through to be recorded, and of course the sound signature of the monitor speakers. If you listen to the producer's final mix, that potentially would be another version of the truth, because he will add EQ, compression and other effects to reflect the sound he or his client is after. And if you listen to the mastering engineer's final master, that's potentially another version of the truth, because he's tasked with taking the producer's mix and making it marketable, and we all know songs and albums can have multiple masters which sound different to each other depending on the intended market and distribution medium.

By this stage, it's possible what's distributed is far removed from that listening experience you had when stood next to the artist. Or, more positively, and probably more likely with just solo piano, it could be as close as the producer and mastering engineer have been able to make it, depending on theirs and the client's preference. But you can't know. You can only know whether your system replays it a way you think is enjoyable and engaging and which seems to convey the emotion.

I get what no pianno says and agree but also what you say as once its recorded its a different matter. Ive always thought cold play put the pianno too far away in the mix if you know what i mean