Snake oil

[davedotco]

Dictionary definition:

Open Minded: Willing to consider new ideas; unprejudiced.

Closed Minded: Not willing to consider different ideas or opinions.

To me, being open minded (with regard to cables), simply means parking preconceptions to one side and listening / experimenting....though one has to be aware that Expectation Bias works both ways.

IMO. There are far too many instances of people hearing differences to simply right it off, without actually trying it.

Fair enough Cno, but I feel the other side of the argument needs to be made as well.

In hundreds of blind tests there is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that any difference can be heard between competently designed cables.

Blind testing may not be perfect but it does take expectation bias out of the equation (mostly) and shows just how small these differences are without the 'sighted' clues.

 

[davedotco]

than one who will say the cheapo brands is all you need to let your system breath - but thats just me. Its the attention to detail I respect and the fact they 'listen'.

Hi Thompsonuxb

:rofl:

Well let me enlighten you by saying i've currently got a system set up which consists of an Audiolab 8200AP, Plinius Odean, Monitor Audio PL200, PLC150, PL100 and JL Audio Fathom f212 and two E-112's. Cables being used are basic interconnects with standard 79 and 500 strand OFC speaker cables. The system sounds sublime

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Yeah, but anyone with any experience will know that your system is not good enough and does not have the resolution to enable you to hear the improvements that better cables will make.

You are using an amplifier from New Zealand for heavens sake..........

Hi davedotco

perhaps because the system is lacking the attention to detail :rofl:

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

I know, this hi-fi lark can be quite difficult.

Do you want me pop round and sort it out for you........ 8)

:cheers:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Ahhh, the old argument....... :?

Agree with me and you are open minded, enlightened even.

Disagree and you are close minded and have defective senses.

Quite hillarious....... :rofl:

Wow...... we are all flesh and blood, some of us tall some short, some of us can run fast, some cannot its not absolute.

thing about such a statement is it applies to the author as much as whoever its been thrown at....... :O

Are you actually agreeing that people who can not hear a difference, a difference that no-one has actually proved to exist, are closed minded with defective senses?

I mean, seriously...... :?

I can excuse david, he was trying to make a point and simply got it wrong in the way that he phrased it.

Some people do hear differences between cables (say), and some do not, there is no argument there.

What he said is the equivilent (in reverse) to me saying that if you do hear a difference, as you yourself do, then you are delusional and your brain is actually making things up.

Davedotco, not sure were you got all that from.....

I'm reading David and agree with what he is saying - the last bit in bold I don't recall David making any such statement to suggest such a thing. Your statement on the other hand........

In all honesty, I am reading folk talking about 'not going to his shop' or 'is his boss aware'... for crying out loud, whats wrong with some of you people.

As I've said before Davedotco - there really is no point arguing the cable thing, the only way to settle it is for us to get together and listen, then decide.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

@David

I class myself as open minded. I'll happily try a cable or whatever and give my own opinion.

Who wouldn't?

I'm not sure I agree that if someone doesn't hear a difference that they are close minded.

To be perfectly clear: I didn't say or imply that you though that way. For the rest I have little else to say. Your reply is a partial correction of what you said earlier (which I'm happy with), but it is still vague about the whole closed minded vs open minded-thingy. Anyway, I'm sure you meant it all well.

@Thompsonuxb

Don't know why Broner is getting so....whats the word I'm looking for.....uptight about Davids post, but its amusing to read anyway.

So… it was amusing to read but you still don’t know why I am getting so…. uptight? (I would rather say that I was being very analytical and open minded )

o.k.

 

[CnoEvil]

Fair enough Cno, but I feel the other side of the argument needs to be made as well.

In hundreds of blind tests there is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that any difference can be heard between competently designed cables.

Blind testing may not be perfect but it does take expectation bias out of the equation (mostly) and shows just how small these differences are without the 'sighted' clues.

Of course it does; but it's the manner in which the argument is often made, and the actual experience behind those making it, that gives me cause for concern. With the advent of Google, everyone's an expert, and it can be used it to justify whatever position you like.

I don't always agree with you, but respect your opinion, as it comes from a lot of experience in the industry, which was gained the old fashioned way.

 

[Vladimir]

Ahhh, the old argument....... :?

Agree with me and you are open minded, enlightened even.

Disagree and you are close minded and have defective senses.

Quite hillarious....... :rofl:

And your system has insufficient resolution!

 

[DocG]

.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

than one who will say the cheapo brands is all you need to let your system breath - but thats just me. Its the attention to detail I respect and the fact they 'listen'.

Hi Thompsonuxb

:rofl:

Well let me enlighten you by saying i've currently got a system set up which consists of an Audiolab 8200AP, Plinius Odean, Monitor Audio PL200, PLC150, PL100 and JL Audio Fathom f212 and two E-112's. Cables being used are basic interconnects with standard 79 and 500 strand OFC speaker cables. The system sounds sublime

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

oh c'mon Rick don't be like that,

you have systems I can only dream of owning - but - you do have access to 'better' cables that you can test and compare. Maybe you do, maybe you have and the standard basic cables you have settled on his your preference.

I don't dispute that,

but if I was buying a system, and maybe another cable can offer me nuances (the sort David recognises) the standard cable cannot,how could you advise me if your unwilling to put forward your findings if any, the differences you may have noticed instead repeating your mantra ref basic interconnects/cables.

Frankly I'd prefer a dealer like David is all I'm saying (for all I know your sublime could sound like ...er....Short wave radio)

 

[nara]

Those that are closed minded won't hear any difference at all, and maybe even state they prefer the cheaper cable. Those that are open minded are more likely to hear a difference, as long as the cable in question offers better quality.

Well, you would say that wouldn't you, given that you're in the trade.

"There's nothing wrong with having an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

Carl Sagan.

 

[pauln]

Frankly I'd prefer a dealer like David is all I'm saying (for all I know your sublime could sound like ...er....Short wave radio)

Pretty sure that David prefers customers like you too. :cheer: Those that can hear "nuances" and are willing to pay for them.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever done an unsighted test?

 

[davedotco]

Fair enough Cno, but I feel the other side of the argument needs to be made as well.

In hundreds of blind tests there is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that any difference can be heard between competently designed cables.

Blind testing may not be perfect but it does take expectation bias out of the equation (mostly) and shows just how small these differences are without the 'sighted' clues.

Of course it does; but it's the manner in which the argument is often made, and the actual experience behind those making it, that gives me cause for concern. With the advent of Google, everyone's an expert, and it can be used it to justify whatever position you like.

I don't always agree with you, but respect your opinion, as it comes from a lot of experience in the industry, which was gained the old fashioned way.

Back in my time as a dealer I was absolutely sure that cables made a real difference, I 'heard' it every day. Taking part in a few blind tests (some for Hi-fi Choice) showed me just how flawed these impressions could be.

I have never claimed cables make no difference, but if you take out the obvious ones that deliberately alter frequency response (Nordost say) then differences between competent designs are tiny.

Expectation bias is really difficult, even when you know about how it works it will still effect your judgement. It is an unconcious thing, conciously believing that there will be no difference does not help, the unconcious mind will still have an overwhelming effect.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Frankly I'd prefer a dealer like David is all I'm saying (for all I know your sublime could sound like ...er....Short wave radio)

Pretty sure that David prefers customers like you too. :cheer: Those that can hear "nuances" and are willing to pay for them.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever done an unsighted test?

What the hell.....!?

Where do people like you come from - have you read the sigs of some of WHF forum members, do you see/read some of the kit some own & then you type "Those that can hear "nuances" and are willing to pay for them." and post a pic of a till.....good grief.

and only for fun on my own system with friends and family.

 

[Vladimir]

The fact that being open or close minded is crucial factor to hearing night and day differences in cables just proves it's just a placebo. Suggestion and expectation are very powerfull things to the human mind. They are proven to bend perception unwillingly.

Sometimes its just having more focus on hearing musical details when changing cables or just refreshing electrical connection after years of use on plugs and terminals. Also don't forget the "you will never miss what isn't there" situation. Lots of examples of people listening to their speakers with several drivers dead and thinking all is well.

The mind has a very powerfull DSP that compensates for room acoustics and missing information. The ones with biggest imagination could project more accurate scenarios in the future based on observation and predict that if they go and pet the lion, they will die. We are wacko because evolution made us that way.

Imagination in creating causality is a great tool but it can also cut you, just like a kitchen knife.

1) I changed cables, sound improved therefore cables improved it. (What actually happened: refreshing electrical connection or replacing cheap corroded cable or insufficient gauge)

2) Everyone told me to change cables because they improve sound. I changed them and sound improved, therefore cables made the sound better. (What actually happened: placebo based on suggestion and expectation + possible refreshing electrical connection or replacing cheap corroded cable or insufficient gauge)

Scenario 1 almost never happens. What happens is you read or someone tells you how cables are important and need to change. Influenced by groupthink you will, even if its a pro and con debate. You are motivated to try and the cable industry is happy with just that.

Does bi-wiring work? Yes it does. It sells double the wire length and double the termination. Sweet!

3) You have special audiophile powers.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Vladimer.

Who said you have to be open minded to hear differences?

I have read a post in this thread were someone who was skeptical and did not expect to hear a difference heard a difference, what does that mean?

Some refuse to accept they hear differences putting it down to placebo or whatever, why?...I do not know, but whats wrong with accepting you can hear a difference. Why are you supposed to doubt yourself if you do, can you ex[plain this?

 

[Vladimir]

I have read a post in this thread were someone who was skeptical and did not expect to hear a difference heard a difference, what does that mean?

He/she does hear a difference but its not because the cable is made by the same blacksmith who made Thor's hammer.

Reasons:

1) Placebo based on suggestion and expectation. If you are skeptic it doesn't mean you have placebo proof west. You make a change and expect an outcome. Positive or negative, it's rolling the dice, you don't controll the process since it is not rational, it's subconcious.

2) Refreshing electrical connections that corroded with time. Recommended ritual is to refresh terminations by an inch every 2 years to keep your cables fresh. Everything that is plugged in or screwed in, unplug, unscrew, work it a bit, even spray deoxit. It will be as good as new.

3) Replacing some stock generic cheap cable that has insufficient gague with higher gague cable.

You don't need special magical audiophile cables. Just have sufficient gague and refresh your connections ocassionally. Lots of decent cheap shielded cables for pro use that will do the job.

Buying factory terminated cables with banana plugs is the worst thing you can do. They are the worst electrical connection and the best one is bare wire. Factory termination also means you wont refresh the cable ends every year or 2 years. You will use them for 5 years and you will need to buy new ones to get a fresh electrical connection. And boom! night and day differences with the new cable. So magical!

IMO buying high gauge pro cable per foot unterminated is the best connection. As for power cords just buy medical grade nickel plated ones and you have no worries.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

So wait a minute Vladimir.....

cleaning your contacts can make a difference, cutting off an inch and re-terminating can make a difference, getting a fatter gauge can make a difference...what else did you mention?.

But changing the actual cable does not - regardless of composition/quality thats just placebo......... wow.

 

[Vladimir]

Reasoning with cable believers is like explaining a trendy woman that a bag is a functional carrier object and appearance and brand is irrelevant for its function, in matter of fact it can hurt its functionality.

 

[Vladimir]

So wait a minute Vladimir.....

cleaning your contacts can make a difference, cutting off an inch and re-terminating can make a difference, getting a fatter gauge can make a difference...what else did you mention?.

But changing the actual cable does not - regardless of composition/quality thats just placebo......... wow.

If you replace a £20 Van Damme cable with a £200 Kimber factory terminated, you wasted your money and after 2 years you will have worse sound than the Van Damme since you can't re-terminate. Its too pretty to cut it!

Did you know Kimber changed the color of the jacked to transparent because metals in colors used changed the magnetic field of the cable and worsened the sound?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

oke:

Spray what on were & then you conclude by talking about handbags........

 

[Thompsonuxb]

So wait a minute Vladimir.....

cleaning your contacts can make a difference, cutting off an inch and re-terminating can make a difference, getting a fatter gauge can make a difference...what else did you mention?.

But changing the actual cable does not - regardless of composition/quality thats just placebo......... wow.

If you replace a £20 Van Damme cable with a £200 Kimber factory terminated, you wasted your money and after 2 years you will have worse sound than the Van Damme since you can't re-terminate. Its too pretty to cut it!

Did you know Kimber changed the color of the jacked to transparent because metals in colors used changed the magnetic field of the cable and worsened the sound?

Not sure whats being said here - are you saying cables make a difference or not?

 

[davedotco]

So wait a minute Vladimir.....

cleaning your contacts can make a difference, cutting off an inch and re-terminating can make a difference, getting a fatter gauge can make a difference...what else did you mention?.

But changing the actual cable does not - regardless of composition/quality thats just placebo......... wow.

If you replace a £20 Van Damme cable with a £200 Kimber factory terminated, you wasted your money and after 2 years you will have worse sound than the Van Damme since you can't re-terminate. Its too pretty to cut it!

Did you know Kimber changed the color of the jacked to transparent because metals in colors used changed the magnetic field of the cable and worsened the sound?

This was the result of Russ Andrews experiments where he compared identical conductors with different colour dielectrics and heard a difference.

As the UK distributer of Kimber cable he shared his revelations with them...... 8)

 

[Vladimir]

@Thompson

I Glee'd up the topic a bit.

 

[Vladimir]

Not sure whats being said here - are you saying cables make a difference or not?

I'm saying expensive "audiophile" designer cables are no better and sometimes worse than stock pro cables. Just the BS they write in their marketing brochures insults my intelligence and I won't buy them for that reason alone.

I got my Audioquest Type 4 five years ago per foot 6 times cheaper than factory terminated. I bought it thinking it will bring more quality for the money than stock pro cable. The insulating jackets crack on mere bend of the wires, the wires corroded throughout the length and they are all oily and green. Only reason they are not in the trash is because they are not litz stranded but full conductor and the corroded coat changes almost nothing. If the cable was factory terminated I would never see those cheap faults and I would praise it. It's absolute piece of $hit.

Go buy pro cables and maybe people will stop calling us audiophiles gullible idiots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjrlsSGJrs

Must have dramatic end.

 

[Alec]

Reasoning with cable believers is like explaining a trendy woman that a bag is a functional carrier object and appearance and brand is irrelevant for its function, in matter of fact it can hurt its functionality.

Tsk. Those silly little ladies and their refusal to just use bin bags, eh? Cuh! Utter madness!

 

[steve_1979]

Hi Thompsonuxb

:rofl:

Well let me enlighten you by saying i've currently got a system set up which consists of an Audiolab 8200AP, Plinius Odean, Monitor Audio PL200, PLC150, PL100 and JL Audio Fathom f212 and two E-112's. Cables being used are basic interconnects with standard 79 and 500 strand OFC speaker cables. The system sounds sublime

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Whenever a hifi shop assistant tries to sell me overpriced cables or any other foo products they lose all credibility and I take my money elsewhere. Based on your honest approach regarding cables, if I were in the market for a new HiFi I'd be more than happy to visit your shop for a demo.