Snake oil

[kmlav]

As with all threads regarding cables, it is a case of auditioning in one's own system. Those that are closed minded won't hear any difference at all, and maybe even state they prefer the cheaper cable. Those that are open minded are more likely to hear a difference, as long as the cable in question offers better quality. Granted, not all expensive cables make a positive difference, hence the need to try them in the user's system.

i agree, its not a case of being expensive or cheap its about being right.

 

[TrevC]

Those that are open minded might also state they prefer the cheaper cables.

Exactly - that is a possibility.

Or they might say there is no difference, which is the expected result with mains cables, which can't make a difference, or interconnects that don't usually make any difference. They could then concentrate on the most critical component, the one that makes a huge difference, the speakers..

 

[Frank Harvey]

Those that are open minded might also state they prefer the cheaper cables.

Exactly - that is a possibility.

Or they might say there is no difference, which is the expected result with mains cables, which can't make a difference, or interconnects that don't usually make any difference. They could then concentrate on the most critical component, the one that makes a huge difference, the speakers..

They may well say there's no difference. Some people say there's no difference between 576i and 1080p...

As for cheaper cables 'allowing a system to breathe', that has to be just as bad as saying there's no difference between cables...

 

[TrevC]

Those that are open minded might also state they prefer the cheaper cables.

Exactly - that is a possibility.

Or they might say there is no difference, which is the expected result with mains cables, which can't make a difference, or interconnects that don't usually make any difference. They could then concentrate on the most critical component, the one that makes a huge difference, the speakers..

They may well say there's no difference. Some people say there's no difference between 576i and 1080p...

As for cheaper cables 'allowing a system to breathe', that has to be just as bad as saying there's no difference between cables...

If you purchase any cable, say an expensive interconnect, and measure all of its electrical characteristics, you would easily be able to duplicate it at a fraction of the price. Your copycat would sound exactly the same.

The picture definition analogy is a very poor one.

.

 

[TrevC]

All you have to do is to use your ears! Cables do make a difference, hwo much diference you wish to make is entirely down to how much difference you wish to make and are willing to pay for it! That said, some of the points made about the stuff talked about by the manufacturers are well made.

[EDITED BY MODS TO REMOVE ATTEMPTS TO BYPASS THE PROFANITY FILTER - PLEASE DON'T TRY THAT AGAIN!]

I see Kim Jong il was a moderator back then, LOL.

 

[Broner]

As with all threads regarding cables, it is a case of auditioning in one's own system. Those that are closed minded won't hear any difference at all, and maybe even state they prefer the cheaper cable. Those that are open minded are more likely to hear a difference, as long as the cable in question offers better quality. Granted, not all expensive cables make a positive difference, hence the need to try them in the user's system.

This fragment would be enough for me to shy away from Frank Harvey Hi-Fi. David divides the listeners in two categories: those who are closed minded and those who are open minded. The latter category of listeners is more likely to hear a difference, according to David, provided that the cables in question offer better quality.

For a certain category of listeners, their brain apparently inhibits them from detecting differences in cables: they are closed minded, but those who do not suffer from such restrictions are able to listen freely and detect what is truly there (also note the implicit assumption that these people are not restricted by psychological effects).

 

[Frank Harvey]

This fragment would be enough for me to shy away from Frank Harvey Hi-Fi. David divides the listeners in two categories: those who are closed minded and those who are open minded. The latter category of listeners is more likely to hear a difference, according to David, provided that the cables in question offer better quality.

Well, you can't please all of the people all of the time, no matter how hard you try. I'm sure there are many more that ignore us because of something I have said. That is a two way street though...

I stand by what I have said though. There are those that are totally closed minded towards cables, and as a result will never (would that be refuse?) hear a difference, no matter what comparison they're presented with.

For a certain category of listeners, their brain apparently inhibits them from detecting differences in cables: they are closed minded, but those who do not suffer from such restrictions are able to listen freely and detect what is truly there (also note the implicit assumption that these people are not restricted by psychological effects).

I think you have misunderstood what I have said, or you've skewed it to suit a point you're trying to make (unless I have misinterpreted your second paragraph). I haven't said that those who can't hear a difference are 'closed minded'. Some people genuinely can't, which was why I used the picture resolution example. This example just goes to show that some people can't detect blatant differences, and I feel this applies to audio too. As with video, some people concentrate on the very basic detail that is at the forefront of the image, and ignore everything else. Standard definition DVD is heavily compressed, but when something is close to the screen, like a face, the detail level is very good, but backgrounds that are in focus can look very fuzzy and patchy. I'm not saying backgrounds of music are fuzzy, but I think a lot of people ignore ambience and smaller details, which may show a bigger difference in the signal than the instruments that are upfront in the mix.

 

[CJSF]

Why just jump on the 'cable' part of the vidio . . . he was talking about HiFi . . . I agree in general terms. its about balance, practicality, what you want to afford and how gullible you are.

Careful component matching and adjustment is the basis of a good system at what ever price point you are, there is no such thing as a 'magic fix', cable or otherwise, at best it might be different. I have been using the same economically priced cables since the mid 80's, I know their sound like the back of my hand and like it. One has put all sorts of kit through them, often evaluating said kit.

I spent two years building my analogue side, never once did cable come into the equation, the system was/is totally transparent, you might even say I built the sound around the sound of the ancillaries?

CJSF

 

[relocated]

As with all threads regarding cables, it is a case of auditioning in one's own system. Those that are closed minded won't hear any difference at all, and maybe even state they prefer the cheaper cable. Those that are open minded are more likely to hear a difference, as long as the cable in question offers better quality. Granted, not all expensive cables make a positive difference, hence the need to try them in the user's system.

What a high opinion you have on people and customers.

Your "closed minded" people will be the ones that just don't hear a difference because there is no difference to hear; the ones you can't lead by the nose to the till and relieve them of their 'hard earned'.

 

[pauln]

Well, you can't please all of the people all of the time, no matter how hard you try. I'm sure there are many more that ignore us because of something I have said. That is a two way street though...

How's that? The only one losing business is you surely?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Excellent, a thread worth getting wound up about on a bank holiday,.....few!

.

 

[CnoEvil]

.....few!

Don't you mean "foo". :twisted:

 

[Broner]

@David Well, you chose to divide listeners in two categories: those who are closed minded and those who are open minded. About the second category, you say that they are ‘more likely to hear a difference as long as the cable offers better quality’, but you fail to address that people might very well hear a difference because they are set on wanting to hear it (surely another form of closed mindedness). You don’t say that people who don’t hear a difference between cables are closed minded, but you do reserve the term ‘closed mindedness’ only for the category of people who don't hear a difference.

Additionally, you make it perfectly clear that it are the closed minded people who are inhibiting their own natural abilities to possibly hear a difference (whether that is by refusal or not), but when it comes to the open minded people, you make it clear that what differences they hear, are in fact directly caused by the cables presented. Besides that this view is easily challenged, it also illustrates how you think: open minded people have access to what’s really there for all to see, but closed minded people (who can only be people who don’t hear differences) are somehow obstructing their senses to work properly.

Maybe you are unaware of the implications of your own words, but I believe I read your post perfectly fine. I would be happy to hear that you don’t think this way, but then I would recommend that you choose your words more carefully.

 

[Covenanter]

This fragment would be enough for me to shy away from Frank Harvey Hi-Fi. David divides the listeners in two categories: those who are closed minded and those who are open minded. The latter category of listeners is more likely to hear a difference, according to David, provided that the cables in question offer better quality.

Well, you can't please all of the people all of the time, no matter how hard you try. I'm sure there are many more that ignore us because of something I have said. That is a two way street though...

I stand by what I have said though. There are those that are totally closed minded towards cables, and as a result will never (would that be refuse?) hear a difference, no matter what comparison they're presented with.

For a certain category of listeners, their brain apparently inhibits them from detecting differences in cables: they are closed minded, but those who do not suffer from such restrictions are able to listen freely and detect what is truly there (also note the implicit assumption that these people are not restricted by psychological effects).

I think you have misunderstood what I have said, or you've skewed it to suit a point you're trying to make (unless I have misinterpreted your second paragraph). I haven't said that those who can't hear a difference are 'closed minded'. Some people genuinely can't, which was why I used the picture resolution example. This example just goes to show that some people can't detect blatant differences, and I feel this applies to audio too. As with video, some people concentrate on the very basic detail that is at the forefront of the image, and ignore everything else. Standard definition DVD is heavily compressed, but when something is close to the screen, like a face, the detail level is very good, but backgrounds that are in focus can look very fuzzy and patchy. I'm not saying backgrounds of music are fuzzy, but I think a lot of people ignore ambience and smaller details, which may show a bigger difference in the signal than the instruments that are upfront in the mix.

Does your management know you write this stuff? I live close enough to Coventry to use your store but I won't ever bother to make the trip seeing the stuff you post on here.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

Ahhh, the old argument....... :?

Agree with me and you are open minded, enlightened even.

Disagree and you are close minded and have defective senses.

Quite hillarious....... :rofl:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

watched the video - I wish this guy had set up a system and tested these cables. especially the power chords and then give an honest account. Liked the way he had all that 'electronic gear' behind him - was that to convince anyone who clicked on his video he had some experience. The man talked about digital signals......digital signals!... like a digital signal traveling across a conductor is any different from an anolog signal.....as for the insulation and quality of cables running on a national netweork. Some of you would be suprised at the quality of cable used and how its insulated.

David is correct in what he says - I know I'd be more inclined to go to a dealer who will take the time out to listen to the cables they supply than one who will say the cheapo brands is all you need to let your system breath - but thats just me. Its the attention to detail I respect and the fact they 'listen'.

Don't get me wrong I understand its all about preference and some may well prefer the standard cable but it does not hurt to listen and judge for yourself.

I also agree with David ref comparing 1080p to 576i - I know people who cannot see differences in video games between frame rates. Does not mean there not there, they just cannot see them. like wise not hearing the differences between cables just means a person cannot hear them. its no big deal.

Don't know why Broner is getting so....whats the word I'm looking for.....uptight about Davids post, but its amusing to read anyway.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Maybe you are unaware of the implications of your own words, but I believe I read your post perfectly fine. I would be happy to hear that you don’t think this way, but then I would recommend that you choose your words more carefully.

I class myself as open minded. I'll happily try a cable or whatever and give my own opinion.

I'm not sure I agree that if someone doesn't hear a difference that they are close minded. Many years ago I was using some QED Silver 12 cable because I needed something flat to go under a carpet, and I didn't want to pay Nordost money. I was happy with this cable, and I had a chance to try out some much more expensive cryogenically treated cables which were also flat. I had a chance of getting these quite cheap, and was looking forward to hearing how much this cable would improve my not inexpensive system. I wanted that cable to sound better. I was disappointed to to find it didn't. So I didn't buy it. So while I don't dismiss the fact that expectation bias exists, I do reject the notion that this is to blame very time someone hears a difference in a cable. If it existed to the extent that many believe on this forum, I would've found this other cable better and changed to it.

I still say that there those who are open minded and those who are closed minded - other than adding those who are undecided, only those options exist when you boil it down to that sort of basic level. Of course, with those two groups, as ever, there are a lot of variables...

I'm certainly not saying that closed minded people are in any way inhibiting their own systems - I doubt anyone who dismisses specialist cables are unhappy with their own system. On the contrary, they will be as happy with heir own systems as those with specialist cables are. It doesn't matter which side people fall on, what does matter is how people are treated by others for being on a particular side.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Ahhh, the old argument....... :?

Agree with me and you are open minded, enlightened even.

Disagree and you are close minded and have defective senses.

Quite hillarious....... :rofl:

Wow...... we are all flesh and blood, some of us tall some short, some of us can run fast, some cannot its not absolute.

thing about such a statement is it applies to the author as much as whoever its been thrown at....... :O

 

[byakuya83]

The default position is that you cannot hear a difference. The burden of proof is on those determined to tell you otherwise. Being open minded works both ways, and people who believe there is a difference but are unable to prove it need to open their minds to possibility they are wrong and accept that.

 

[Broner]

@David

I class myself as open minded. I'll happily try a cable or whatever and give my own opinion.

Who wouldn't?

I'm not sure I agree that if someone doesn't hear a difference that they are close minded.

To be perfectly clear: I didn't say or imply that you though that way. For the rest I have little else to say. Your reply is a partial correction of what you said earlier (which I'm happy with), but it is still vague about the whole closed minded vs open minded-thingy. Anyway, I'm sure you meant it all well.

@Thompsonuxb

Don't know why Broner is getting so....whats the word I'm looking for.....uptight about Davids post, but its amusing to read anyway.

So… it was amusing to read but you still don’t know why I am getting so…. uptight? (I would rather say that I was being very analytical and open minded )

 

[MUSICRAFT]

than one who will say the cheapo brands is all you need to let your system breath - but thats just me. Its the attention to detail I respect and the fact they 'listen'.

Hi Thompsonuxb

:rofl:

Well let me enlighten you by saying i've currently got a system set up which consists of an Audiolab 8200AP, Plinius Odean, Monitor Audio PL200, PLC150, PL100 and JL Audio Fathom f212 and two E-112's. Cables being used are basic interconnects with standard 79 and 500 strand OFC speaker cables. The system sounds sublime

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[davedotco]

Ahhh, the old argument....... :?

Agree with me and you are open minded, enlightened even.

Disagree and you are close minded and have defective senses.

Quite hillarious....... :rofl:

Wow...... we are all flesh and blood, some of us tall some short, some of us can run fast, some cannot its not absolute.

thing about such a statement is it applies to the author as much as whoever its been thrown at....... :O

Are you actually agreeing that people who can not hear a difference, a difference that no-one has actually proved to exist, are closed minded with defective senses?

I mean, seriously...... :?

I can excuse david, he was trying to make a point and simply got it wrong in the way that he phrased it.

Some people do hear differences between cables (say), and some do not, there is no argument there.

What he said is the equivilent (in reverse) to me saying that if you do hear a difference, as you yourself do, then you are delusional and your brain is actually making things up.

 

[davedotco]

than one who will say the cheapo brands is all you need to let your system breath - but thats just me. Its the attention to detail I respect and the fact they 'listen'.

Hi Thompsonuxb

:rofl:

Well let me enlighten you by saying i've currently got a system set up which consists of an Audiolab 8200AP, Plinius Odean, Monitor Audio PL200, PLC150, PL100 and JL Audio Fathom f212 and two E-112's. Cables being used are basic interconnects with standard 79 and 500 strand OFC speaker cables. The system sounds sublime

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Yeah, but anyone with any experience will know that your system is not good enough and does not have the resolution to enable you to hear the improvements that better cables will make.

You are using an amplifier from New Zealand for heavens sake..........

 

[CnoEvil]

Dictionary definition:

Open Minded: Willing to consider new ideas; unprejudiced.

Closed Minded: Not willing to consider different ideas or opinions.

To me, being open minded (with regard to cables), simply means parking preconceptions to one side and listening / experimenting....though one has to be aware that Expectation Bias works both ways.

IMO. There are far too many instances of people hearing differences to simply right it off, without actually trying it.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

than one who will say the cheapo brands is all you need to let your system breath - but thats just me. Its the attention to detail I respect and the fact they 'listen'.

Hi Thompsonuxb

:rofl:

Well let me enlighten you by saying i've currently got a system set up which consists of an Audiolab 8200AP, Plinius Odean, Monitor Audio PL200, PLC150, PL100 and JL Audio Fathom f212 and two E-112's. Cables being used are basic interconnects with standard 79 and 500 strand OFC speaker cables. The system sounds sublime

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Yeah, but anyone with any experience will know that your system is not good enough and does not have the resolution to enable you to hear the improvements that better cables will make.

You are using an amplifier from New Zealand for heavens sake..........

Hi davedotco

perhaps because the system is lacking the attention to detail :rofl:

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft