Sibilance

[plastic penguin]

Just dug out my Simon & Garfunkel box set. On Bridge over Troubled Waters album certain tracks display elements of sibilance, whereas when I compared the original 1970 vinyl, that had no 'ssss' on the same tracks. But this CD box set sounds horribly compressed.

If I get time later I'll try and bring down the RS6s

That's the album attached.

 

[podknocker]

Vinyl will flatter the recording, because the resolution is lower than that of a CD. A CD will expose the limitations of the source tape, due to the higher resolution. This guidance used to be on all CD booklets. It's not a CDs fault, it's the recording. Old recordings on CD sound dreadful. New recordings on vinyl sound dreadful. If you have state of the art recording kit and put this music on a CD, or newer formats, it will sound glorious. I had the Elvis greatest hits album on CD, many tracks in mono and the sound quality was appalling. The CD went in the bin. Having scratchy mono recordings, from the 50s and 60s, on CD, really exposed the shocking quality of the equipment used back in the day. Remastering can only do so much. CD does sound worse, if you start with poor quality recordings.

 

[plastic penguin]

Pretty much the same with a remastered Dusty album.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Old recordings on CD sound dreadful.

I'd very much disagree - or disagree that it has to be so. Some of my 'go to' demo tracks are of Ray Charles and recorded during the sixties - they are stunningly natural and shame most newer stuff. Recording the room (and doing it well) - not cut-and-paste mixing.

 

[plastic penguin]

Having now tried RS6 on a crummy recording with a surprising outcome (in some respects).

The same tracks from the same 2 CDs, no sibilance. They sound more mechanical but, it seems, metal domed tweeters are better suited to remastered rubbish.

Nowhere near as 3D as the Dalis. Hey-ho.

 

[WayneKerr]

Having now tried RS6 on a crummy recording with a surprising outcome (in some respects).

The same tracks from the same 2 CDs, no sibilance. They sound more mechanical but, it seems, metal domed tweeters are better suited to remastered rubbish.

Nowhere near as 3D as the Dalis. Hey-ho.

Interesting. My P3's have metal dome tweeters but I also have a pair of MA BX5's... might give them a try.

 

[plastic penguin]

Interesting. My P3's have metal dome tweeters but I also have a pair of MA BX5's... might give them a try.

The only thing I can think of is the Dalis are more revealing. Other that it's scratch the thatch.

 

[gasolin]

Yes, sssss, but that's normal, and in the wrong system or recording where it actually hurts the ear, and is offensive, is when I use the adjective 'sibilant'.

Sibilance is when a system or recording renders 'ssss' or similar unlistenable. And I've experienced it. There can be sibilance is a system which is described as having a 'dark' sound too, simply because it does not handle high frequencies well.

When I said I isolated my CD player as being sibilant I meant that 100%, because within the same system where nothing else changed, I had 3 other disc players too. One of which was a Pioneer with a then trending 24/192khz DAC. It was bright, but did not offend me like the NAD did.

At dealers, I noticed cheaper/budget Cambridge Audio CD players were not great in this regard as well.

The loudness war, bad volume, input (sensitivity) from a cd player with to much voltage,gain going into something that can't handle it ?

View: https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=1240

 

[manicm]

The loudness war, bad volume, input (sensitivity) from a cd player with to much voltage,gain going into something that can't handle it ?

View: https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=1240

In the exact same system, I had 4 disc players. My old Technics CDP, two Pioneer DVD players, and a NAD CDP. I had never experienced sibilance until I installed the NAD C521i. Terrible, terrible thing.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Just had the chance to listen to this on headphones, both the tracks you mention are definitely a ssss-fest

I gave this a listen today - first time on this setup. IT's more refined than I've heard it before, but still a pretty tough listen in places. The other instruments are all well-recorded, so I'm sticking with my previous conclusions - it's badly mixed/layered etc. I'm guessing that most (though not all) who bought it were unlikely to be heavily into their hifis!

 

[WayneKerr]

I gave this a listen today - first time on this setup. IT's more refined than I've heard it before, but still a pretty tough listen in places. The other instruments are all well-recorded, so I'm sticking with my previous conclusions - it's badly mixed/layered etc. I'm guessing that most (though not all) who bought it were unlikely to be heavily into their hifis!

Completely agree. This kind of recording is not for the more discerning listeners... pop at it's purest... Love it and can live with it!

 

[Edbostan]

Just dug out my Simon & Garfunkel box set. On Bridge over Troubled Waters album certain tracks display elements of sibilance, whereas when I compared the original 1970 vinyl, that had no 'ssss' on the same tracks. But this CD box set sounds horribly compressed.

If I get time later I'll try and bring down the RS6s

That's the album attached.

Their recordings differ vastly in quality. I find the title track Bridge over Troubled Water sounds very distorted and the crescendos make my teeth grate. On the other hand other tracks sound clean and distinct, for example Cecilia or Baby Driver and the beguiling quality of The Boy from New York or Frank Lloyd Wright is refreshing. I don't favour one recording medium over another. I find the latest Cliff Richard tracks exhibit sibilance due to his change of voice and then there is Bernie and the Jetsssssss by Elton John which is intended sibilance.

 

[plastic penguin]

Think threads like these can make you paranoid. I was questioning my system.... for about 30 seconds.

 

[WayneKerr]

Resurrecting this thread to pose a question. For those interested please play "Superstar" by the Carpenters and inform me if you can detect any sibilance in Karen's voice throughout this track.

For those prepared to participate I thank you in advance

There is a reason for this question, I will give my conclusion after some replies.

 

[Al ears]

Resurrecting this thread to pose a question. For those interested please play "Superstar" by the Carpenters and inform me if you can detect any sibilance in Karen's voice throughout this track.

For those prepared to participate I thank you in advance

There is a reason for this question, I will give my conclusion after some replies.

Do you mean on any form of media, on any system?
You might be disappointed with results......
In fact it may be a pointless exercise..

 

[WayneKerr]

Do you mean on any form of media, on any system?
You might be disappointed with results......
In fact it may be a pointless exercise..

Obviously would prefer members main system but would accept any answers.

 

[Witterings]

Resurrecting this thread to pose a question. For those interested please play "Superstar" by the Carpenters and inform me if you can detect any sibilance in Karen's voice throughout this track.

For those prepared to participate I thank you in advance

There is a reason for this question, I will give my conclusion after some replies.

I wouldn't necessariy say sibilance but there is some harshness / distortion during the choruses. I think the thing that causes it most is the drummer hitting a slightly open high hat combined with the backing vocals at the same time.
Hope that's of help.

 

[gasolin]

what version On carpentenders gold there is a little but not much

 

[Nico69]

When I was demo'ing amps and speakers I specifically chose some tracks where I noticed sibilance on some male and female vocals, especially on the "ch" sounds e.g. a lyric was "...what you want, what you need.." and there was a definite "ch" between 'what' and 'you' i.e. 'whatchoo'. I have this particular track on vinyl, CD and UHD streaming and it exists on all three so I guess it is there from the studio masters.
I did find that speakers with a metal dome tweeter handled it better than a soft dome, it was a bit more controlled but still evident.

 

[Witterings]

I did find that speakers with a metal dome tweeter handled it better than a soft dome, it was a bit more controlled but still evident.

I can't stand metal domes and am in the process of changing speakers as my current ones are. Not strictly sibilance but with slightly elevated recordings they become unlistenable to, I use West Life - What About Now, Genesis - And Then There Were Three and Chris de Burgh - Into The Light as test tracks / albums and they're way to harsh / brash.

Just my 2p's worth.

 

[Nico69]

I can't stand metal domes and am in the process of changing speakers as my current ones are.......

Just my 2p's worth.

It was just an observation and not a preference. In the end I chose the speakers with the soft dome tweeters as they were much better speakers all round. Dali Oberon 5's

 

[Longchops]

Resurrecting this thread to pose a question. For those interested please play "Superstar" by the Carpenters and inform me if you can detect any sibilance in Karen's voice throughout this track.

For those prepared to participate I thank you in advance

There is a reason for this question, I will give my conclusion after some replies.

I have the 1999 version from the singles 1969-1973 as remastered by Bernie Grundman. So if you have an earlier version that will probably be worse

Theres a couple of plosive pops, a noticeable one on "Far' at 0:32 and a very VERY slight hiss on the 'Second ssshow' at approx 0:42

I can hear very very slight overdrive in the backing tracks and the brass tracks, the could be where the mastering engineer has added a little bit of saturation to glue everything together as there is quite a lot going on there

Its worth pointing out that it is a very busy mix in the 2.5kHz range particularly on the 2nd and 3rd chorus, and there is very little headroom there at all, so if you have speakers or headphones that are boosting frequencies in those ranges then I wouldn't be surprised if it sounded sibilant or distorted at all tbh. But I can confirm that this recording is fine overall.

Also there's a surprising amount of low end on it for a carpenters track, that kick drum has a lot of boom to it around 60Hz, its practically touching 0dB....

 

[nopiano]

Hard to know what to add to the superb analysis of Superstar by @Longchops

This evening I put it on ‘the Hifi’ and it was indeed much more richly balanced than I expected. Definitely some of those ‘plosive’ sounds identified above, but more subdued than I recall. I was listening on Qobuz to the Gold album, which sounds remastered from what I recall.

This morning I tried on an Amazon Echo in our kitchen and it was just fine, in that sort of indeterminate way that such speakers portray everything.

Karen Carpenter had the most beautiful voice, but I recall from various documentaries that she sang very close to the mic, as she was often playing the drums simultaneously.

Big caveat to all the above is my own hearing loss at around 2-3kHz which probably disqualifies me from meaningful comment.

 

[Longchops]

Hard to know what to add to the superb analysis of Superstar by @Longchops

This evening I put it on ‘the Hifi’ and it was indeed much more richly balanced than I expected. Definitely some of those ‘plosive’ sounds identified above, but more subdued than I recall. I was listening on Qobuz to the Gold album, which sounds remastered from what I recall.

This morning I tried on an Amazon Echo in our kitchen and it was just fine, in that sort of indeterminate way that such speakers portray everything.

Karen Carpenter had the most beautiful voice, but I recall from various documentaries that she sang very close to the mic, as she was often playing the drums simultaneously.

Big caveat to all the above is my own hearing loss at around 2-3kHz which probably disqualifies me from meaningful comment.

Why thank you! Haha

The version you listened to is actually slightly different, it was a remix for 2004, apparently they brought the kick drum up more and added a lot more reverb to the mix, which would smooth out a lot of the harshness, so probably sounds better.

Her drumming would have affected her live vocals badly (must have been challenging for the people running the sound at the shows!) but the studio vocals will be recorded separately for sure

 

[nopiano]

Ah, good point. The vocalists would have been in a booth I guess.

Just tried the the Singles, which I see is in 48/24 HD, whereas the one I tried was CD resolution. Similar though. Then I tried an older Essential Collection and it’s how I remember the LP- all vocals and brass! LF has all but vanished by comparison.

Crumbs, they certainly sexed-up the remastering! Just shows how variable these things are, especially when streaming where it’s not always easy to check the provenance.