A recent listing session with a home Hi-Fi set up got me wondering how loud I should be listening to the music to hear what the artist intended, or to hear the music in 'High Fidelity" Many recordings are made in the studio, which means that the recording would have been monitored using in the control room at a particular volume level. Let's assume that is what the artist wanted us to hear. What is level to listen at? I currently listened at 88 db or so according to my Android JBL tools sound app on my Samsung Galaxy. This fascinating article reveals some interesting things about the recording experience. http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/gstep/index.php?id=84This may be a limiting factor:http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/noise-exposure-level-duration-d_717.html
Should we listen at 85DB SPL?
- Thread starter BasicHIFI
- Start date
Isn't the level we listen at down to personal preference.
Once released an artist loses all control on how their material is enjoyed.
Be it on an am transistor radio or a multi-thousand pound rig or via headphones the choice is yours/ours.
Once released an artist loses all control on how their material is enjoyed.
Be it on an am transistor radio or a multi-thousand pound rig or via headphones the choice is yours/ours.
Not sure about the 'how the artist intended' but at home I mostly listen quietly. Partly because it relaxes me more than being pummelled by pressure waves*, partly to train my lugs to become more receptive towards high frequencies again (to many night clubs in my previous life). It seems to work and as a bonus, yes, I find I also enjoy the intricacies that make certain good recordings more by listening at those volumes.
Living in a flat also doesn't make it particularely easy to blast music loudly for long periods without feeling somewhat guilty and thus diminishing the enjoyment.
*But, I also enjoy live music. It's a different experience, sound quality/high fidelity somewhat taking a backstep and pure enjoyment of both a social event and the music (pressure waves et all) being more important.
Living in a flat also doesn't make it particularely easy to blast music loudly for long periods without feeling somewhat guilty and thus diminishing the enjoyment.
*But, I also enjoy live music. It's a different experience, sound quality/high fidelity somewhat taking a backstep and pure enjoyment of both a social event and the music (pressure waves et all) being more important.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
Trying to prescribe a volume level is just not practical. Most of us don't live in detached properties and many of us have multiple neighbours to consider. Most new properties have thin dividing walls and ceilings, and noise easily spreads.
I read an article on the very same subject by a tonmeister from B&O, so I think I can relate to what you're saying.
Our ears are sensitive to certain frequencies at a given volume. Basically we hear voices very well at all volumes. Highs and lows not so good at low volume.
Which kind of explains -partly- why we usually favour a louder system to one played at a more modest volume.
Now, given what I stated above, the artists in the studio heard something at a particular volume. To most carefully reproduce that, the device that plays the file should know what this recorded volume was. Alas, that is not part of the redbook standard. Basically B&O -to the best of my understanding- apply an equalisation curve that best counteracts our ears sensitivety, but they have to guess the volume of sound the record was recorded at. In a way it's a sophiscated loudness equalisation.
Our ears are sensitive to certain frequencies at a given volume. Basically we hear voices very well at all volumes. Highs and lows not so good at low volume.
Which kind of explains -partly- why we usually favour a louder system to one played at a more modest volume.
Now, given what I stated above, the artists in the studio heard something at a particular volume. To most carefully reproduce that, the device that plays the file should know what this recorded volume was. Alas, that is not part of the redbook standard. Basically B&O -to the best of my understanding- apply an equalisation curve that best counteracts our ears sensitivety, but they have to guess the volume of sound the record was recorded at. In a way it's a sophiscated loudness equalisation.
Fascinating link, the tonemeister.. will go through it.
Meanwhile, the replies so far to the topic (thanks) have been an eye opener. I imagined the average Hi-Fi enthusiast listening to music at live levels, well maybe for string quartets and folk singers. Rock fans would be frequently pushing their equipment to rock concert levels. It seems this is not so. I, too am constrained by the length of time it takes for somoene to say 'can we turn this down a bit'. Taking listening levels into consideration really changes the equation in terms of what audio equipment one will procure, configure, and in the case of speaker cabinets and drivers, speaker systems, what one will design and build. I would like to know what levels everyone listens at in terms of dB SPL ?
I find the following disturbing (from the article at the above link)
"And, since there’s no telling (at least with music recordings) what level the recording and mastering engineers used to make the recording that you’re listening to right now (or the one you’ll hear after this one), then there’s no way of predicting what curve you should use to do the correction for your volume setting."
Meanwhile, the replies so far to the topic (thanks) have been an eye opener. I imagined the average Hi-Fi enthusiast listening to music at live levels, well maybe for string quartets and folk singers. Rock fans would be frequently pushing their equipment to rock concert levels. It seems this is not so. I, too am constrained by the length of time it takes for somoene to say 'can we turn this down a bit'. Taking listening levels into consideration really changes the equation in terms of what audio equipment one will procure, configure, and in the case of speaker cabinets and drivers, speaker systems, what one will design and build. I would like to know what levels everyone listens at in terms of dB SPL ?
I find the following disturbing (from the article at the above link)
"And, since there’s no telling (at least with music recordings) what level the recording and mastering engineers used to make the recording that you’re listening to right now (or the one you’ll hear after this one), then there’s no way of predicting what curve you should use to do the correction for your volume setting."
Covenanter
Well-known member
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Ideally, listening to music or movies at the same volume level as they were mixed at in the studio would be preferable to hear it as close to how it was intended to sound. Listening at much lower volumes can mean that subtle details in the mix may be lost or diminished. But, we all tend to listen at a volume we are comfortable with. I myself tend to watch films around the -20/-25dB level (on the amp's display), and rarely will I go above that except for quieter films like No Country For Old Men, which would be around -15dB. My comfortable listening level for music varies on the time of day, mood, genre, system, amongst many other factors.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
Depends on which room I'm listening in. I've just been listening to the Blu-ray of Fury, starring Brad Pitt. (Similar levels would apply to Blu-rays like Star Trek (2009) and The Conjuring.) In my bedroom and kitchen systems I listen at -18dB on the (receiver's volume control) and in the parlour, at -21dB. imiAs David at Frank Harvey says, that does vary from film to film though.
Covenanter
Well-known member
MeanandGreen
Well-known member
Listening at that kind of volume on a regular basis isn't good for your hearing. It may take years, but your hearing will deteriorate more quickly than it would of naturally.
My listening tends to vary from 60db to 80db depending on my mood and music genre at the time. Very occasionally I may be peaking at 90db, but this is very rare these days and is usually after a couple of beers.
Another point to to consider with the graphs in the link above is that not only do our ears vary with frequency and volume level, so do the rooms we have our speakers in. There are so many variables in this, that there is no one size fits all so to speak.
My listening tends to vary from 60db to 80db depending on my mood and music genre at the time. Very occasionally I may be peaking at 90db, but this is very rare these days and is usually after a couple of beers.
Another point to to consider with the graphs in the link above is that not only do our ears vary with frequency and volume level, so do the rooms we have our speakers in. There are so many variables in this, that there is no one size fits all so to speak.
Covenanter said:
At 95dB black holes form in the middle of your living room. However, people who use silver cables may overcome this since silver is bright.
chebby
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
Mild case of auditory synæsthesia maybe? ...
http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080805/full/news.2008.1014.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2008/08/06/got-auditory-synesthesia-test/
... all that 'organic' and 'natural' sound you get from wood and paper and silk domes, the 'warmth' from valves and class A, the 'hardness' from metal tweeters (except the ones that Harbeth use because they are cancelled out by all the hand crafted wooden cabinets from deep in the Sussex Downs).
chebby said:
How will plastic front speaker baffles and all plastic DAC influence my music listening?
chebby
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
Get a Mojo DAC it's all things to all men. It is made from solid metal* to mimic plastic and made in Britain.
*Aluminium made with the extra 'i' is far better for this.
Just came across this older thread that I missed. Good info.
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/what-normal-listening-level
Another forum:
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/listening-level-in-db?reply=14660154292900927
And another with a poll:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6097-Preferred-listening-level-dB
And another:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-how-much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
I find 70 DB SPL comfortable in the car, that is at ear level. 1 metre in front of the door speakers it is muc louder, I think about 88dB SPL measured with the JBL tools for Android.
I guess my entire system configuration will be targeting 75dBA for safety.
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/what-normal-listening-level
Another forum:
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/listening-level-in-db?reply=14660154292900927
And another with a poll:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6097-Preferred-listening-level-dB
And another:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-how-much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
I find 70 DB SPL comfortable in the car, that is at ear level. 1 metre in front of the door speakers it is muc louder, I think about 88dB SPL measured with the JBL tools for Android.
I guess my entire system configuration will be targeting 75dBA for safety.
75 dB sound pressure level at 1 metre is a very comfortable level, but it is best to be directly in front of the speakers. Bass levels are also rather low even with loudness on. So in his level. An equalizer (heretical?) may help.
Of course the maximum comfortable levels are measured at the listener's ear, so if you are a little away from the speaker it can be louder. The louder the more of a disturbance to other people, so better sit close by and find a way to boost the bass at low levels.
Of course the maximum comfortable levels are measured at the listener's ear, so if you are a little away from the speaker it can be louder. The louder the more of a disturbance to other people, so better sit close by and find a way to boost the bass at low levels.
Are odd, percieved loudness and measured SPL are often very different things and dynamic range throws rather a lot of confusion into this.
A decent recording may have peaks some 20dB higher than average levels, so a nice sensible 75dB playback level actually have peaks around 95dB. Do our ears percieve that as loud or not so loud?
Live music is often very loud, even acoustic music that does not sound loud actually measures in excess of 100dB very easily.
Some years ago the GLC in London wanted to limit the noise levels at gigs, it was trialed at a few venues and set at 106dB, above which the power to the stage was cut.
We were setting up for a gig and this was all very new, a GLC inspector was present and showed me the sensor over the mixing position and explained how I (as engineer) needed to keep the levels within limits.
At that point the drummer, who had just set up, played a short 'roll', and the power switched off. "See" said the inspector pointing at the mixer, "too loud". I showed him the rear of the mixer where at this point, nothing was connected, the PA was not even powered up.
So about 40-50ft from the stage, a drum kit played not particularly hard produced an SPL in excess of 106dB, totally unamplified. A few weeks later the proposals were quietly dropped, I hoped that my unwitting 'demonstration' may have played some part in that.
A decent recording may have peaks some 20dB higher than average levels, so a nice sensible 75dB playback level actually have peaks around 95dB. Do our ears percieve that as loud or not so loud?
Live music is often very loud, even acoustic music that does not sound loud actually measures in excess of 100dB very easily.
Some years ago the GLC in London wanted to limit the noise levels at gigs, it was trialed at a few venues and set at 106dB, above which the power to the stage was cut.
We were setting up for a gig and this was all very new, a GLC inspector was present and showed me the sensor over the mixing position and explained how I (as engineer) needed to keep the levels within limits.
At that point the drummer, who had just set up, played a short 'roll', and the power switched off. "See" said the inspector pointing at the mixer, "too loud". I showed him the rear of the mixer where at this point, nothing was connected, the PA was not even powered up.
So about 40-50ft from the stage, a drum kit played not particularly hard produced an SPL in excess of 106dB, totally unamplified. A few weeks later the proposals were quietly dropped, I hoped that my unwitting 'demonstration' may have played some part in that.
David@FrankHarvey said:
-20db on your AVamp!
What amp do you use Dave?
I use a Yamaha ra-1020 for movies and a Yamaha ax-620 for music neither go past -40db (both count up to 0db the max)
How big is your room?
davedotco said:
I actually agree with this - a tambourine played with vigor in a reasonable size living room can easily drown out most hifi systems.
Like wise an acoustic guitar strummed with gusto. Both instruments will use their full dynamic range too.
In hifi like most things the 'loudness' is an illusion...... *YES*
chebby
Well-known member
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
A Classe Sigma SSP processor, but the visual volume levels will be roughly comparable with most processors that use the same volume display type (up to zero rather than from zero up).Thompsonuxb said:
I had a good listen to some music on Thursday while the neighbours were out, and I still didn't really get above about -15dB. Whilst playing the music, I had an app open on my phone to roughly measure the levels, and it was averaging around the 50dB point. That was a nice volume without being crazy.
About 4m square, give or take. I sit about 10ft from the speakers.
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