Should we listen at 85DB SPL?

[Thompsonuxb]

-20db on your AVamp!

What amp do you use Dave?

A Classe Sigma SSP processor, but the visual volume levels will be roughly comparable with most processors that use the same volume display type (up to zero rather than from zero up).

I had a good listen to some music on Thursday while the neighbours were out, and I still didn't really get above about -15dB. Whilst playing the music, I had an app open on my phone to roughly measure the levels, and it was averaging around the 50dB point. That was a nice volume without being crazy.

How big is your room?

About 4m square, give or take. I sit about 10ft from the speakers.

-15db that's loud on my amps and I'm using the KEF1000.5 - Full range speakers are being pushed....

I'm surprised at your levels.....

Anyhoo, that app you're using is it free?

If so what's it's full name and where can I get one.... *db*

 

[Vladimir]

A few weeks later the proposals were quietly dropped, I hoped that my unwitting 'demonstration' may have played some part in that.

*clapping* *clapping* *clapping* *clapping* ...

*drinks* *drinks* *drinks*

 

[Frank Harvey]

-15db that's loud on my amps and I'm using the KEF1000.5 - Full range speakers are being pushed....

I'm surprised at your levels.....

Anyhoo, that app you're using is it free?

If so what's it's full name and where can I get one.... *db*

Audio Tool, which is free.

My levels might be a little higher than some who are using larger speakers, as the LS50s are slightly low on the efficiency side. The level I listen to music at (according to the processor's display) will vary a little depending on the album, as some are louder than others. My general listening level is a little lower than what I stated, but as I say, the neighbours went out, so I pushed things a little further. Had a bit of a Black Keys fest, as I wanted to hear the system with less than perfectly recorded material to see how it was coping with it.

 

[JamesMellor]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

 

[Thompsonuxb]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

 

[Jota180]

http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2014/06/07/bo-tech-what-is-loudness/

Excellent article. Just goes to show how far from accurate our hearing really is. It's clearly also why music played louder is perceived as 'better' than music played quietly since at quieter levels we have greater difficulty hearing high and low frequencies than we do at higher volume levels. Figure 3 in that article illustrates it perfectly.

 

[BasicHIFI]

Figure 3 in the aforementioned article shows that all frequencies are percieved equally loudly at 70dB and varies little between 60-80 dB which also is the comfortable listening level.

If we could get them to turn down the volume on live music we are done. But maybe live music is not supposed to be listened to for 8 hour plus.

What really gets me is that for most of human history, music has been experienced live and in tru Hi-Fi. It is only now with the technology we have we are trying to artificially re-generate music.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Figure 3 in the aforementioned article shows that all frequencies are percieved equally loudly at 70dB and varies little between 60-80 dB which also is the comfortable listening level.?

If we could get them to turn down the volume on live music we are done. But maybe live music is not supposed to be listened to for 8 hour plus.

What really gets me is that for most of human history, music has been experienced live and in tru Hi-Fi. It is only now with the technology we have we are trying to artificially re-generate music. ?

 

But if they are all around 70db they are the same....like a ton of steel v a ton of feathers.......

Small tip wet tissue in your ears at a live concert or ear bungs the music sounds as clear as your domestic hifi.......

 

[davedotco]

Figure 3 in the aforementioned article shows that all frequencies are percieved equally loudly at 70dB and varies little between 60-80 dB which also is the comfortable listening level.

If we could get them to turn down the volume on live music we are done. But maybe live music is not supposed to be listened to for 8 hour plus.

What really gets me is that for most of human history, music has been experienced live and in tru Hi-Fi. It is only now with the technology we have we are trying to artificially re-generate music.

Careful here.

We do not know that all frequencies are percieved as equal loudness at 70dB, that is just a convention that we apply to what we hear. This is in the middle of our hearing range and is the average loudness of many things in everyday life.

We decided the we hear frequencies equally at this level simply as a benchmark so that we can investigate and attempt to measure how our hearing response varies at different levels.

I have said this before, but the distinction between measured SPL (scientific fact) and perceived loudness (subjective guesswork) is an important one, the really important thing to understand is that measured SPL is only one of several factors that alter our perception of loudness.

In general terms, live unamplified music sounds less loud than it measures, reproduced or amplified music usually sounds louder than it measures.

 

[Vladimir]

Figure 3 in the aforementioned article shows that all frequencies are percieved equally loudly at 70dB and varies little between 60-80 dB which also is the comfortable listening level.

If we could get them to turn down the volume on live music we are done. But maybe live music is not supposed to be listened to for 8 hour plus.

What really gets me is that for most of human history, music has been experienced live and in tru Hi-Fi. It is only now with the technology we have we are trying to artificially re-generate music.

Careful here.

We do not know that all frequencies are percieved as equal loudness at 70dB, that is just a convention that we apply to what we hear. This is in the middle of our hearing range and is the average loudness of many things in everyday life.

We decided the we hear frequencies equally at this level simply as a benchmark so that we can investigate and attempt to measure how our hearing response varies at different levels.

I have said this before, but the distinction between measured SPL (scientific fact) and perceived loudness (subjective guesswork) is an important one, the really important thing to understand is that measured SPL is only one of several factors that alter our perception of loudness.

In general terms, live unamplified music sounds less loud than it measures, reproduced or amplified music usually sounds louder than it measures.

Percieved loudness is like the boiling frog thing. If you dip the frog in boiling watter, it will die. If you dip it in cold watter and slowly heat it to boiling point, the frog will adapt and live. Go to a party and 120dB is nothing. Play 100dB alone at home and you get a headache.

 

[Vladimir]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

I used to have an earring but I'm not sure what sensitivity it had. It was silver. My nipplering was comparably more sensitive. That one was white gold I think. Metalurgy is weird.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

I used to have an earring but I'm not sure what sensitivity it had. It was silver. My nipplering was comparably more sensitive. That one was white gold I think. Metalurgy is weird.

Vlad you're getting pretty close to stalker territory....... Back up little...... *STOP*

 

[Vladimir]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

I used to have an earring but I'm not sure what sensitivity it had. It was silver. My nipplering was comparably more sensitive. That one was white gold I think. Metalurgy is weird.

Vlad you're getting pretty close to stalker territory....... Back up little...... *STOP*

*air_kiss*

 

[davedotco]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

I used to have an earring but I'm not sure what sensitivity it had. It was silver. My nipplering was comparably more sensitive. That one was white gold I think. Metalurgy is weird.

Vlad you're getting pretty close to stalker territory....... Back up little...... *STOP*

*air_kiss*

For some time I have considered Thompson to be rather like a puppy.

Amusing, charming, fun but with a tendency to do the occasional poo-poo on the rug.

Maybe you should ask if you can take him for a walk...?

 

[Vladimir]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

I used to have an earring but I'm not sure what sensitivity it had. It was silver. My nipplering was comparably more sensitive. That one was white gold I think. Metalurgy is weird.

Vlad you're getting pretty close to stalker territory....... Back up little...... *STOP*

*air_kiss*

For some time I have considered Thompson to be rather like a puppy.

Amusing, charming, fun but with a tendency to do the occasional poo-poo on the rug.

Maybe you should ask if you can take him for a walk...?

He wouldn't like being my dog. He would spend too much time in the dog house for being naughty.

 

[davedotco]

It depends on the source dosn't it ? or the stream , I I have sony BDP790 / Pioneer 922 vsx / KEF KHT 2005.3 , the discs play at - 35db as does iplayer , netfilex I play at -25 or even -20 db . They all are fed from the Sony via HDMi

James

I can only guess that either my earring is sensitive or my amps are good.

Down loaded an app (thanks Dave) that measures SPL, measuring the ax-620 at -50db on the volume dial averages 60db at -45db it's 70db upto -40db pushing 80db plus and that's thumping no distortion though.

(tracks used Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' and Bobby V 'Ohh( got me like) all on cd)

Sitting about 3.5m from speakers with 87db to 89db sensitivity.

Have yo tried one of these apps if so what do you measure.

Gonna do the HT next.

I used to have an earring but I'm not sure what sensitivity it had. It was silver. My nipplering was comparably more sensitive. That one was white gold I think. Metalurgy is weird.

Vlad you're getting pretty close to stalker territory....... Back up little...... *STOP*

*air_kiss*

For some time I have considered Thompson to be rather like a puppy.

Amusing, charming, fun but with a tendency to do the occasional poo-poo on the rug.

Maybe you should ask if you can take him for a walk...?

He wouldn't like being my dog. He would spend too much time in the dog house for being naughty.

There would be no room for any such creature in ours.

I find myself in there far too much of the time.....*secret*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Honestly.....

The internet as become so civilised these days I can't really give you guys the response you truly deserve.

Man, if this was like 1999 when the internet was like the wild wild west - no holds barred.... *boredom*

You guys are lucky!

 

[davedotco]

Honestly.....

The internet as become so civilised these days I can't really give you guys the response you truly deserve.

Man, if this was like 1999 when the internet was like the wild wild west - no holds barred.... *boredom*

You guys are lucky!

Don't worry, it's ok.

Poo-pooing on the rug, it kinda goes with the territory. We still love you....*air_kiss*

 

[Vladimir]

Man, if this was like 1999 when the internet was like the wild wild west - no holds barred.... *boredom*

You guys are lucky!

In 1999 I was 16. You would have had to be nice to me. Dave on the ther hand would have probably had his favorite slippers chewed to bits. Zap, zap!

 

[BasicHIFI]

Is it just me or is it the signs of the times? I remember reading an article in the 80s where a several groups were asked to 'sing less loudly' as it was damaging to the hearing or environment. That set the stage in my opinion, that there was something very wrong with high listening levels. That was before I had problems after listening on headphones 8 hours a day or so. Hence the need for speakers mounted at ear level these days.

Another fascinating article:

http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/musicians-and-prevention-hearing-loss-926

Worth quoting:

"Intermittent Nature of Music[/b]

The vast majority of the research in the area of hearing loss has been in the industrial/occupational domain. While it is known that occupational levels in excess of 85 dBA can permanently damage hearing (and data exists that even levels above 80 dBA can be damaging), the levels from exposure to recreational noise such as music are not as well defined. An implicit assumption in all noise exposure research is that intermittent noise with regular quiet periods would be less damaging than steady-state noise. Various regulatory agencies and standards have handled this differently (e.g. Committee on Hearing and Bioacoustics "on-off" fraction rule), but how quiet do the spaces in between the noise (and music) bursts have to be for there to be a reduction in the level of damage? Since the dynamics of music are more variable than typical noise spectra, with music having intense periods followed by periods of relative quiet, this may result in a different exposure for music and noise of "equal intensities". This leads us to our first hearing loss prevention strategy."

This audio stuff is really deep and complicated, I fear.

 

[BasicHIFI]

Same article:

"Subsequently, hearing protection treats different frequencies in different ways. This may be acceptable for many industrial workers, but is disastrous for many musicians. In the past 15 years, there have been a series of earplugs available that are ideal for listening to music. These "flat" or uniform attenuator earplugs lessen the sound or noise energy equally across the spectrum. Music still sounds like music, but without that "dead" feeling."

 

[davedotco]

Other studies show that hearing loss may also be related to the level of stress caused by high spls.

Ie listening to loud music, which can be a pleasant experience is less damaging than an 'equivilent' exposure to unpleasant industrial and other noise.

Over the years I have spent a lot of time listening to loud, often very loud music, both professionally and for pleasure, my hearing is not perfect, but not that bad either.

I know working (rock) musicians whose hearing is fine despite 30+ years giging, others who have real problems. This is not a straightforward subject

 

[BasicHIFI]

I guess you have to look out for the warning signs. Each person is different while some have superpowers.

Does this work with speakers or for an orchestra...

"you can simply point to someone you’d like to hear better in a room, and every other voice will fade away."