Thought it would be easier and less messy to have any help/suggestions/advice in one place along with my progress thus far on my room and subwoofer problem that is ongoing. I will post later tonight my findings/changes with swapping my room around entirely.
Room/Subwoofer Placement Problems
- Thread starter nugget2014
- Start date
ellisdj said:
yep, that's the problem. having the tv more to the left originally but that means 1 speaker would be closer to the tv than the other is..
i tried listening with the speaker far left even toed in but the right was so much more dominant i could hardly hear the left, so i just moved it closer. if i moved the cabinet/tv to the left again i worry i'll get the effect of washed out colours/image with the VA panel/curved screen combo by sitting off axis (especially for whoever sits in the far right seat next to the patio door)
regarding the main issue, the subwoofer has it's pros and cons in the new layout and position. frequencies vary in loudness a LOT
the subwoofer is now exactly in the corner as i moved it, sounds bit better. but i did some measuring to see if theres much change over the 3 seats and got some weird results.
first off let me say, i can actually feel some low end now, it was 45-50hz that's it so far (didnt test above 100hz yet) but ONLY when sitting on the furthest left seat, the other 2 i didnt feel it really which is weird what a few feet can make.
here are some examples of frequencies being louder/quieter over the 3 seats.
50hz: Left seat measured 61db, middle seat measured 75db right seat measured 80db and it sounded louder also. but i couldn't feel the 50hz tone on the other 2 seats which were a lot louder..that is so weird.
another example, the furthest right seat is 15db louder at 55hz over the other 2 seats. this happens at a select few frequencies from 25-100hz. although i have not run audyysey yet and i have no EQ set. i am going to wait until i wire my surrounds up then run EQ and see what changes. maybe move my tv back again see how it goes there if i have any issues with the image
but the loudest and best sound from the sub yet again was in the weirdest place, the front left corner where my speaker is.
You need to upload the photos to this thread
Putting a sub in the corner gives it as much gain as possible this is what you want but will also emphasise room nodes. That's normal and you fix with treatment or eq.
Put it back in the corner before you run auddessey and get your speakers equal distance.
You need to enjoy watching the tv so align that for best viewing even if can't be central. Make the speakers symmetrical and you don't want them in the corner.
Dali are designed to have no toe-in btw
Putting a sub in the corner gives it as much gain as possible this is what you want but will also emphasise room nodes. That's normal and you fix with treatment or eq.
Put it back in the corner before you run auddessey and get your speakers equal distance.
You need to enjoy watching the tv so align that for best viewing even if can't be central. Make the speakers symmetrical and you don't want them in the corner.
Dali are designed to have no toe-in btw
ellisdj said:
do you mean by that they sound a lot worse when toed in or they just don't need to be, yeah since then i have put them normal. i was gonna put the sub in the other corner first to see how that compares before i run auddessey then see what the original spot sounds like when EQ'd.
will play around with it more tomorrow, and watch another film. i'll upload a photo of what it WILL look like after i've tweaked around again. but so far your advice has gone a long way ellis and i'm grateful. both my mum and dad said the entire room looks better and i have to agree too looking past what barriers i still have to overcome.
edit: everyone's advice infact, had many bits of advice to use to improve.
macdiddy
Well-known member
I may be wrong but I just had to say this but in all of the Home cinema set guides I have ever read (in various magazines and online) all have said that putting subs in corners should be avoided as it can cause problems like excessive boom and uneven low freq output (this is what the manual for my Monitor audio sub says).
Of course not everybody's rooms are the same but the only time I have seen a room with subs in the corners was a purpose built (from the ground up) dem room reviewed in a magazine of a JBL Synthesis THX system costing well over £100,000 where a technician comes over from JBL in the usa to setup and fine tune the system with a pc to the room up to THX reference levels (ie very loud).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have other options available to try.
Hope you get your system sounding as good as it looks.
*music2*
btw my twin subs are located along the front wall in between my front speakers and my centre spk, I cannot locate them in the corners due to space plus I have a neighbour to contain with.
Of course not everybody's rooms are the same but the only time I have seen a room with subs in the corners was a purpose built (from the ground up) dem room reviewed in a magazine of a JBL Synthesis THX system costing well over £100,000 where a technician comes over from JBL in the usa to setup and fine tune the system with a pc to the room up to THX reference levels (ie very loud).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you have other options available to try.
Hope you get your system sounding as good as it looks.
*music2*
btw my twin subs are located along the front wall in between my front speakers and my centre spk, I cannot locate them in the corners due to space plus I have a neighbour to contain with.
The best bass I have heard has been from steinway systems and they say exclusively to put the subs in the corners of the room.
They are adament it improves bass timing and i agree it also will increase the subs output to its max room gain that yes will cause bass to boom without bass management. Bass management is cheap now days and very very effective so we don't have to worry about the negative effects of corner placement.
I forgot to mention it also depends on sub design but a lot of small subs rely on room gain for anything like good extension so their actually designed to go in the corners
They are adament it improves bass timing and i agree it also will increase the subs output to its max room gain that yes will cause bass to boom without bass management. Bass management is cheap now days and very very effective so we don't have to worry about the negative effects of corner placement.
I forgot to mention it also depends on sub design but a lot of small subs rely on room gain for anything like good extension so their actually designed to go in the corners
Having my sub anywhere but a corner makes the sound like having no sub at all with just my bookshelves outputting bass its not very present at all..
Nugget - I would advise you to learn how to use REW to measure the sound in your room.
I havent had it out for ages - I have added a lot fo treatment to my room lately and I didnt measure, I thought I could tweak things by ear. Largely I had done an amazing job with my main speakers - but on the bass I had missed a few things.
Now I have got my measurements I can see totally whats going on and what I need to change to make improvements.
2 hours work to do it will now see for for the forseeable and I can see now why my system sounds as it does.
Its free software about £100 for a mic, you need a sound card in your pc if you dont have one and about a week on top to learn it, then a lifetime to fully understand it. You only need the basics initially though
I havent had it out for ages - I have added a lot fo treatment to my room lately and I didnt measure, I thought I could tweak things by ear. Largely I had done an amazing job with my main speakers - but on the bass I had missed a few things.
Now I have got my measurements I can see totally whats going on and what I need to change to make improvements.
2 hours work to do it will now see for for the forseeable and I can see now why my system sounds as it does.
Its free software about £100 for a mic, you need a sound card in your pc if you dont have one and about a week on top to learn it, then a lifetime to fully understand it. You only need the basics initially though
ellisdj said:
Dont have a sound card and right now i cant buy anything anyway. Going america next feb with the flights/2 week accommodation being booked soon gonna set me right back. My finances are gonna be screwed for a while. So anything that costs money to improve my home cinema will have to wait. All i can do right now is wait or try to get the best from it spending 0.
it seems the frequency response is more even and closer to each other now after EQ, reference sounds best right now. still need to get the perfect speaker/tv and cabinet position and haven't tried out the system since EQ applied. hope to hear a real difference
before eq:
25hz 50db
30hz59db
35hz 63db
40hz 60db
after eq:
25hz 64db
30hz 61db
35hz 67db
40hz 67db
rising upto 88db at 100hz
at 85 and 90hz i had a considerate dip which was odd, look at the changes here: (before i applied eq)
75hz 87db
80hz 77db
85hz 55db
90hz 55db
now after i eq the response wasnt as bad but still dipped a bit..
75hz 80db
80hz 80db
85hz 69db
90hz 74db
all these are numbers..nothing like seeing what it sounds like really when watching a film at usual volumes.
next time i watch a film over next few days i'll see what its like! then got to see which of the 3 seats sounds the best.
also i still have a huge drop off at 20hz which is expected of my sub. from 35db at 20hz no eq to 46db after eq. will just have to wait till i can afford an upgrade now.
before eq:
25hz 50db
30hz59db
35hz 63db
40hz 60db
after eq:
25hz 64db
30hz 61db
35hz 67db
40hz 67db
rising upto 88db at 100hz
at 85 and 90hz i had a considerate dip which was odd, look at the changes here: (before i applied eq)
75hz 87db
80hz 77db
85hz 55db
90hz 55db
now after i eq the response wasnt as bad but still dipped a bit..
75hz 80db
80hz 80db
85hz 69db
90hz 74db
all these are numbers..nothing like seeing what it sounds like really when watching a film at usual volumes.
next time i watch a film over next few days i'll see what its like! then got to see which of the 3 seats sounds the best.
also i still have a huge drop off at 20hz which is expected of my sub. from 35db at 20hz no eq to 46db after eq. will just have to wait till i can afford an upgrade now.
bigboss
Moderator
HI Nugget for reference
I get over 90db @ 30hz from one of my SVS SB13 Ultras at my listening position which is in the centre of the room so the worst spot for bass same as you
EDIT - I got that wrong I get 86db at 20hz from both, this is not ideal, ideally I would get 90db or more, however the sub is out of puff at about 28hz and the output is dropping off.
That in my mind is only just about enough to support 5 speakers - so the output from your exisiting sub is not very good at all - you know this already but as I measured the other day I cna be accurate inn the numbers,
You sub is doing the opposite to what you want - you need more bass the deeper you go, not less - that sub is no good dude based on the numbers you have given.
I get over 90db @ 30hz from one of my SVS SB13 Ultras at my listening position which is in the centre of the room so the worst spot for bass same as you
EDIT - I got that wrong I get 86db at 20hz from both, this is not ideal, ideally I would get 90db or more, however the sub is out of puff at about 28hz and the output is dropping off.
That in my mind is only just about enough to support 5 speakers - so the output from your exisiting sub is not very good at all - you know this already but as I measured the other day I cna be accurate inn the numbers,
You sub is doing the opposite to what you want - you need more bass the deeper you go, not less - that sub is no good dude based on the numbers you have given.
This is my waterfall plot of my room - most people wont have the first idea of what they are looking at here but this is a very important measurement. It shows how long a note takes to decay within the room - if there is too much decay the sound is lingering and in the way of the next sound if that makes sense making things sound worse. If you times that lingering sound by 1000's of sounds constantly from mutliple speakers and here you can hopefully see the issue of sound absorption or lack of it in most cases within a room.
I have put a Lot of GIK acoustic treatement into my room, but for good reason - with the exception of 30hz that rings to about 600ms which is not terrible by any stretch all the other freqs are gone by less than 400ms even in the lower bass ranges. That is top stuff and is why I have such a tight sounding system even at high volumes. I am not saying its perfect because it far from - but having a look at REW and seeing what actually going on, understanding it then working on it is 1 huge step to getting Much Better sound in your listening room. Hence the sugegstion to everyone to learn to use it
This is one of my measurements - I had some fat on my bass that was clearly audible in certain content. It did add some warmth to the sound but was a bit uncomfortable at times on the ear. I can see why as I was getting near 100db of output at 150hz.
However in a good way I crossover at 150hz so you can clearly see that with both front speakers and subs going I am getting no cancellation from any phase issues between the speakers and subs. That took some work to get that perfect.
You can see that after 30hz my subs are running out of puff and the output is falling, this is excactly as advertised by SVS on their spec - the sub performs exactly as they advertise and pretty stellar for a small sealed sub.
EDIT - According to the graphs I am still getting 70db of bass at 10hz - however I dont think that is enough to really notice it as its 20db down. However some companies would say in room repsonse of 10hz and they wouldnt be lying - but that doesnt mean there is usable output at 10hz because there isnt. Hard facts
Indeed the low end is lacking. But for a sub i paid £400 for it aint bad. The volume of my receiver was at -25 while taking the measurements.
At least i can feel some frequencies. 30,35,50 and 55hz! Maybe more depending on levels.
At least i can feel some frequencies. 30,35,50 and 55hz! Maybe more depending on levels.
First film watched at decent volumes since eq. Wow what a difference. I felt so much. Mainly during the music sequences though..sometimes felt like my sub was bottoming out. Dad made a comment about feeling like thunder.
Regarding an upgrade will there be much point if i dont drive my system to crazy levels? I listened at -20 which was super loud during the action sequences. I dont know how people listen at reference..
Think i noticed bass overhang so that makes me want to get sealed. But if i can feel a relatively good amount of impact with just the one sub do you think it would be better to get the 1 big sub over duals? Something like the arendal sub 2. Dual 13.8 inch drivers would be monstrous although then the issue comes into play is it worth it if i dont listen at reference?
Seems more silly having sub running hot when listening at those levels. Maybe i turn down a little there.
Didnt get the kick in the chest feeling though which probably isnt possible anyway from a sub like mine. Off to a good start though!
Regarding an upgrade will there be much point if i dont drive my system to crazy levels? I listened at -20 which was super loud during the action sequences. I dont know how people listen at reference..
Think i noticed bass overhang so that makes me want to get sealed. But if i can feel a relatively good amount of impact with just the one sub do you think it would be better to get the 1 big sub over duals? Something like the arendal sub 2. Dual 13.8 inch drivers would be monstrous although then the issue comes into play is it worth it if i dont listen at reference?
Seems more silly having sub running hot when listening at those levels. Maybe i turn down a little there.
Didnt get the kick in the chest feeling though which probably isnt possible anyway from a sub like mine. Off to a good start though!
bigboss
Moderator
I think something like Arendal sub 2 will be beneficial even in smallish rooms. They have a 60 days return policy so worth checking out.
bigboss
Moderator
An alternative, which may suit your needs much better, is buttkicker:
http://www.thebuttkicker.com/wireless-kit
Check this thread from few years ago:
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/ever-heard-buttkicker
The buttkicker is like a "silent subwoofer", giving you sofa shaking bass without the sound to disturb neighbours. It will complement very well with less capable subwoofers.
They have wired option (LFE kit) and wireless which I linked above. Well within your budget. You can return it within the trial period if it doesn't work for you.
http://www.thebuttkicker.com/wireless-kit
Check this thread from few years ago:
http://www.whathifi.com/forum/home-cinema/ever-heard-buttkicker
The buttkicker is like a "silent subwoofer", giving you sofa shaking bass without the sound to disturb neighbours. It will complement very well with less capable subwoofers.
They have wired option (LFE kit) and wireless which I linked above. Well within your budget. You can return it within the trial period if it doesn't work for you.
bigboss
Moderator
bigboss
Moderator
Check with Sevenoaks Sheffield. They used to have a buttkicker on demo, not far from your place.
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