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Ripp-off Hifi

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Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
spiny norman said:
David@FrankHarvey said:
No, I mean the Lyric 09 is discontinued stock - the current model is the "Lyric" - as Cyrus reduced to the Lyric range from two (07 and 09) down to just one, as there was no real need for two models so closely priced.
I see. The 'reinvented' version looks just the same as the discontinued one, and it's hardly making waves, is it?
Not at the moment. The main reason for the change was to reduce the range to one model, and instead offer two different finishes. Great sounding system that drives pretty demanding speakers, and even works well with ATC's SCM40s thanks to its amplification - not bad for a £2k all in one.
 

eggontoast

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2011
451
9
18,895
chrisr1718 said:
http://www.amprepairservices.co.uk/

£125 for the basic service, including parts & return postage and there's a definite improvement!!*yahoo*
I'm just thinking about what a service for a Cyrus one involves. Cleaning the selectors, replacing a few caps and checking the bias and maybe adding a couple of small metal brackets to the case which has probably broken, as usual, not sure how that would equate to £125 really.
 

MrReaper182

New member
Apr 6, 2014
63
0
0
A lot of people tell me I was riped off spending 800 quid on a CD player but It was worth every penny I spent on it so it was no rip of to me. I guess their will always be someone to tell you that you have overpaid on a product as everybody as different idies on what's a rip off and what's not. So long as you are happy with your product then it was not a rip off.
 

NSA_watch_my_toilet

New member
Aug 24, 2013
7
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0
Sorry to disrupt the discussion. I just wanted to react on this thread because I live in a region with lots of highend electronic engeneer that are actually working for the hifi sector (ayon, Nagra, Tron, Swissonor, Dartzeel, Goldmund, PSI and some others), and had the pleasure to encounter them during the last years. I had the confirmation that the price of a hifi product is, generally, around to 6 times the price of his components, sometimes even more (confirmed to me during a discussion by the french Luxman executive). So yes, a 30$ display or a 100$ display will do great differences in the price of your "whatever". The highest price for hifi comps, as I was told, is the casing. Brands that can manufacture their own cases (cnc, acid bath, sanding, laser engraving, ect...) are very rare and the sending and receiving of the cases to diverse specialists is a true logistical and financial nightmare.

And yes, there is a tendency since this decade, to make things overexpensive. But we are free not to buy those items. I will, for example, never buy the newest B&W 800 series. I know, there is nothing that can justify the last price evolution of them. And I will not buy an entry Naim Player too, because he's probably costing 10-20 times the price of his components. Fact is, we, consumers, are free to not play this game. There are plenty of magestic hifi gear on the used market, some are highly reliable and lots are easy to maintain in well condition with little efforts.

I want to remember, in this place, the difficulties that Accuphase encountered when they overpriced their class A integrated on the german market. They where forced, by absence of demand, to sell the next generation of those for a lower price (source : PIA interview by german magazine). This is a power everyone on this forum has.

#theLHCwillnotreadthateither
 

Freemomusic

New member
Mar 5, 2016
0
0
0
A good few years ago now I made a friend a hifi Rack and speaker stands, these were seen by a hifi shop owner who wanted to sell these products, so i made a few sets of stands to the heights requested for a comparison test, at the time his best stands were selling for £190. he was impressed with the results and wanted to place an order…said he wanted to sell them for between £110-£150 and offered me £40 per pair, to hand build and hand finish! said that was the normal mark up!
i didn’t go ahead with this! just made elements for myself as units and stands i have seen to me are not worth their price tag!
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
MajorFubar said:
Infiniteloop said:
Modern Cyrus equipment looks so dated you might be forgiven for thinking that they play 8 Track cartridges.
Nah, they looked waaay cooler :)
I actually prefer the Akai thingy. - At least it looks like a product of its time and not someone else's...
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
spiny norman said:
I'd think that Cyrus might have learned its lesson when it comes to trying to do something different: launched at £3000 and the subject of rave reviews, awards and all that stuff, the Lyric 09 appears to have tanked if the near half-price deals now available are anything to go by.

It may be a case of 'once bitten', I think.
But that thing looked awful. It was Cyrus' stab at a good-sounding 'lifestyle' product and they blew it because lifestyle products shouldn't commit the cardinal sin of looking 'Carp'.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
NSA_watch_my_toilet said:
Sorry to disrupt the discussion. I just wanted to react on this thread because I live in a region with lots of highend electronic engeneer that are actually working for the hifi sector (ayon, Nagra, Tron, Swissonor, Dartzeel, Goldmund, PSI and some others), and had the pleasure to encounter them during the last years. I had the confirmation that the price of a hifi product is, generally, around to 6 times the price of his components, sometimes even more (confirmed to me during a discussion by the french Luxman executive). So yes, a 30$ display or a 100$ display will do great differences in the price of your "whatever". The highest price for hifi comps, as I was told, is the casing. Brands that can manufacture their own cases (cnc, acid bath, sanding, laser engraving, ect...) are very rare and the sending and receiving of the cases to diverse specialists is a true logistical and financial nightmare.

And yes, there is a tendency since this decade, to make things overexpensive. But we are free not to buy those items. I will, for example, never buy the newest B&W 800 series. I know, there is nothing that can justify the last price evolution of them. And I will not buy an entry Naim Player too, because he's probably costing 10-20 times the price of his components. Fact is, we, consumers, are free to not play this game. There are plenty of magestic hifi gear on the used market, some are highly reliable and lots are easy to maintain in well condition with little efforts.

I want to remember, in this place, the difficulties that Accuphase encountered when they overpriced their class A integrated on the german market. They where forced, by absence of demand, to sell the next generation of those for a lower price (source : PIA interview by german magazine). This is a power everyone on this forum has.

#theLHCwillnotreadthateither
Hi,

For the dartzeel I expect that the 10 to 20 times the cost of components to be expected, but again, for many amplifiers this is just not the case.

Firstly it is important to see the insides of a piece of equipment, to gauge the level of components, numbers and which ones are used. You can then compare with others and see if the equipment is value for money.

Example, is that I was in 1992 going to purchase a micromega CD player, which was a rebadged Philips CD player. Changes were the output opamps and power transformer. The premium for this change was an extra £300 - just not worth it, and the instructions and display on the CD player were in French. Pah.

Anyway, the cost of components and casework, transformer etc, are a significant cost which is a high percentage of the total cost to build. Since hifi is essentially in decline, throughput of sales is a lot lower than 20 years ago, so the margins may have to be higher since the costs to produce, etc., will not have reduced since 20 years ago.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

bigfish786

Moderator
Jan 29, 2013
258
83
18,970
.the vast majority of consumer electronics have plummeted in the last few decades.

I suppose hifi has done this too.

If you were so inclined you could get a load of separates, speakers, etc for very little outlay.

What most of us do, is not buy the cheapest, we buy quality, which costs more.

Yeah, there are companies out there that charge way over the odds, there always has, and always will be.

Personally, I feel I've got very good value for money for everything I have. Sound per pound, I'm very happy indeed.

i have often had the conversation with a friend of mine, regarding just how good hifi can get, and at what point are you no longer paying for audio improvements, but paying for "looks". I don't think I've got there yet.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
7
18,795
drummerman said:
Maybe not ripp-off but 'economising'.

To give RussAndrews a break I thought of other things that reek of wrong economy, more so the further up we go.

Example; Roksan's K3 CD Player. - A parts bin Dot Matrix Display complete with 80's style track calender. Must have cost 'em a few pence. Perhaps a left over wholesale purchase for a few quid. Yours for 900 quid.

Worse, I read a 2013 review of MBL's £8000 1511F High End DAC. A crappy, low(est) resolution display adorning the Front. You wouldn't accept this on £40 phone ... .

Many more.

(I'll excuse Cyrus and Naim with their displays as they could be deemed iconic) :)
I've thought the same thing myself. The screen on most hifi equipment is rubbish. Thanks to mobile phone technology high rersolution colour screens cost peanuts now so why do they still use old fashioned LCD screens that have 1980's technology?

Mayby newer screen need a bit of software development to make the work? This could be above the skill level of most hifi companies (most of which are barely above cottage industry size/skill level).
 

Al ears

Moderator
I am very surprised at this expectation regards screens on hifi equipment. I guess it goes along with everyone owning hi res phones or tablets and expect to see the same everywhere.

When it comes to streamers who the heck is looking at the screen when choosing their music? Not me, so what difference does quality of display make? I would rather the money was spent making it sound as good as possible.

Streamers are one of those things I think of as half-equipment. They require you to own something else in order to control them (in most cases). I know most people do but it's a bit like selling a CD P without some sort of remote, insisting you buy that as an optional extra.

Those screens can be as hi resolution you like but, looking at the size of most of them, they would still be useless from my listening position.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
HI,

Yes - OLED screens from Farnell are cheap for what you can obtain - and some are capacitively touch sensitive too. But, when adding this to the total cost - it is surprising how soon the total increases.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
3
0
eggontoast said:
chrisr1718 said:
http://www.amprepairservices.co.uk/

£125 for the basic service, including parts & return postage and there's a definite improvement!!*yahoo*
I'm just thinking about what a service for a Cyrus one involves. Cleaning the selectors, replacing a few caps and checking the bias and maybe adding a couple of small metal brackets to the case which has probably broken, as usual, not sure how that would equate to £125 really.
Same reason why any specialist job costs considerably more than the basic cost of the parts. You're paying for his time plus the security and guarantee of knowing it's been done well by a qualified experienced technician, who has to cover the cost of parts + business overheads + tax + some profit for what is essentially very small scale work, he might get a dozen orders one week but none for the rest of the month while still having to put food on the table.

(To be fair I think he's retired and he does this part time as a little earner; I'm pretty sure he doesn't have children who are literally going to starve if we don't all rush out to get our Cyrus and NAD amps repaired...but trying to earn a bit on the side doesn't make him a bad man.)

Plus it's a matter of perspective: my pocket was emptied by nearly £200 by the time I'd paid for the full 'options pack' of upgrades/repairs he offers, but that same price wouldn't have bought me anything that sounds even nearly as good.
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
540
1
0
chrisr1718 said:
Edbo2 said:
Also I want to service my faithfully Cyrus One but dithering over the cost of £220 and no possible improvement in performance.
http://www.amprepairservices.co.uk/

£125 for the basic service, including parts & return postage and there's a definite improvement!!*yahoo*
I agree that £220 for a service may not be worth it for a cyrus one. However, this, according to cyrus doesn't just mean to get it going again but they test parts and those not standing up to original specification will be replaced. They then soak test the unit, clean it, re-package it as new and give a warranty. Probably far removed from some independant repair shops and it will no doubt add (some) value to the product even if, as in your case, you are unlikely to recover the full cost of it. - For some, intending to keep their old cyrus systems, that may not matter though. A friend of mine has an old Naim system and absolutely loves it. No intentions to change.

So, depending how much you like your amplifier this may well be worth the cost (to you) but especially so for owners of newer ones.

The other deal mentioned reads good too (£125). I assume it comes with a warranty on work carried out.
 

spiny norman

New member
Jan 14, 2009
293
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0
MajorFubar said:
Same reason why any specialist job costs considerably more than the basic cost of the parts. You're paying for his time plus the security and guarantee of knowing it's been done well by a qualified experienced technician, who has to cover the cost of parts + business overheads + tax + some profit for what is essentially very small scale work
Exactly the point I was making in my comment about plumbers.
 

eggontoast

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2011
451
9
18,895
What a strange bunch you all are.

You all moan about the cost of new Hi-Fi and how much it has gone up in recent years, but some alleged 'technical genius' puts up a webpage and charges you a couple of hundred quid to change a few caps and that's reasonable *wacko*

What about all the R&D, sourcing of components, testing and approvals verification for different parts of the world, manufacturing setup and production engineering, distribution and warranty costs that the poor manufacturer has to pay out. This is before paying any wages, business taxes, national insurances contributions etc etc and you lot want to pay a fiver for the end product, then you wonder why they’ve skimped on a display or made it in outta Mongolia.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
eggontoast said:
What a strange bunch you all are.

You all moan about the cost of new Hi-Fi and how much it has gone up in recent years, but some alleged 'technical genius' puts up a webpage and charges you a couple of hundred quid to change a few caps and that's reasonable *wacko*

What about all the R&D, sourcing of components, testing and approvals verification for different parts of the world, manufacturing setup and production engineering, distribution and warranty costs that the poor manufacturer has to pay out. This is before paying any wages, business taxes, national insurances contributions etc etc and you lot want to pay a fiver for the end product, then you wonder why they’ve skimped on a display or made it in outta Mongolia.
Hi,

I am not sure of the demographics for the forum, but hifi does seem to be an older persons pursuit.

I do sometimes get the impression we are becoming a nation of brats. So many of the younger generation believe it is ok to download music illegally and defraud the artist of necessary income.

Everyone must have a smartphone that costs quite a bit of money, and then upgrade to the next one a few years later at similar cost. Yet a hifi amplifier or other, will provide years of enjoyment and yet there are complaints that the final cost is approaching the cost of two smartphones (upper end of the smartphone market).

As stated by eggontoast, the effort and "other" costs that allow a piece of equipment to reach market are significant.

Alternatively, perhaps people are too stupid to know the value of manufactured goods.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
3
0
eggontoast said:
What a strange bunch you all are.

You all moan about the cost of new Hi-Fi and how much it has gone up in recent years, but some alleged 'technical genius' puts up a webpage and charges you a couple of hundred quid to change a few caps and that's reasonable *wacko*
Different people moaning vs defending I reckon. Personally I feel rightly shafted when Stateside they pay eg $2000 for something and over here it's the same price with the currency symbol swapped for a £, but normally I'm happy to pay a good price for a good service / product.
 

PeterMac

New member
Jan 3, 2016
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0
This all makes me glad I bought "budget"! To my ears my kit sounds great so far and I've not even got decent speakers yet!
 

james_LR90

New member
Aug 17, 2010
1
0
0
Most HiFi is a rip off and that's one of the reasons I looked into NVA. Sold direct meaning that you get very good value for money. I believe NVA could easily sell for multiples of what it sells for. Never again will I buy HiFi from a rip off manufacturer.
 

eggontoast

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2011
451
9
18,895
james_LR90 said:
Most HiFi is a rip off and that's one of the reasons I looked into NVA. Sold direct meaning that you get very good value for money. I believe NVA could easily sell for multiples of what it sells for. Never again will I buy HiFi from a rip off manufacturer.
You are more than welcome to it.
 

chrisr1718

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2009
52
0
18,540
james_LR90 said:
Never again will I buy HiFi from a rip off manufacturer.
This is why I won't buy NVA...
NVA AMPLIFIERS AND SPEAKER CABLES – WARRANTY
Only NVA LS1, LS2, LS3, LS5, LS6 and LS7 is recommended for use with this amplifier, other cables will invalidate the warranty.

Now that's a rip off!
 

NSA_watch_my_toilet

New member
Aug 24, 2013
7
0
0
PeterMac said:
This all makes me glad I bought "budget"! To my ears my kit sounds great so far and I've not even got decent speakers yet!
It's, in the end, the important thing. That every enthousiast had found his pleasure and is satisfied. If your stufflist is up to date, then I will say you did it smart. I reviewed the the project carbon for a french hifi portal, and it was a good fellow, I think around the same for your two cambridges, and it's always a good move to go for good vintage speakers depending of the model.
 

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