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Ripp-off Hifi

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Benedict_Arnold

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Jan 16, 2013
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MajorFubar said:
drummerman said:
(I'll excuse Cyrus and Naim with their displays as they could be deemed iconic) :)
Funnily enough Cyrus displays were right at the top of my list. The fluorescent displays on their early 4000, 7000 and PCM II machines were of their day and IMO looked fitting for their price. (You could argue I would say that, seeing I've just bought a used PCM II). But I'm afraid the displays on modern Cyrus equipment look like something they stole out of a Matsui / Saisho parts bin.
Cyrus fans (like me) would argue that it's how their products sound rather than how they look that's important. I mean, what do you want, dancing LCD VU bars and a "Loud" button? A graphic equaliser as well, sir? Ooh, sir! Suits you, sir, suits you.

I'm sure Cyrus would argue that much beyond displaying whether you're playing a CD or listening to streamed content, the display isn't necessary. After all, go back to the early 80s, and all you got was a button that lit up or a little light above the button to show what you were listening to. And I would say if you can't figure out if you're listening to an LP, a CD or the radio, perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to work the stereo on your own anyway.

That having been said, I do agree that, perhaps, it's time Cyrus re-thought their displays, at least for more complicated things like streamers.

In the long term I also think they need to re-think their die-cast shoeboxes, if only so they can put proper PSX-R quality power supplies in the same boxes as the components they serve, and not compel buyers to buy them separately. Then again, someone from Cyrus will be along shortly to explain that there are audio advantages to having separately boxed power supplies, so what do I know?
 

lpv

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Mar 14, 2013
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blades demo was one of the worst demo I had last year.. I think demo room was ok, expensive electronics, cables, well recorded music.. I don't remember the total price of the components but few times cheaper ATC in same room smashed blades..

for me mentioned naim sit probably at the top of british overpriced brands... same can be said about electrocompaniet ( but at least the performance of thier gold/ black boxes suits my taste better than naim)
 

Edbo2

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Mar 6, 2016
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When Best Buys closed I bought a pair of Kef IQ10 for £180 about £100 of list. They are UK design assembled in China. Their successors the Q100 are even more expensive!! Also I want to service my faithfully Cyrus One but dithering over the cost of £220 and no possible improvement in performance.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Perhaps in the UK a lot of perceived rip-offs are simply down to the prices manufacturers think they can charge us. When the majority of products can be had in the U.S. for the equivalent amount of dollars it's no wonder we feel hard done by.

Admittedly the internet and ability to buy direct from abroad has eased this effect slightly.
 

chris_bates1974

Moderator
Feb 28, 2013
96
34
10,570
Also a fan of Cyrus, and wish I could afford more - the sound suits me.

I do agree though, that certain kit just doesn't seem to be worth even close to what people will pay - the LS3/5a being the biggest case in point I have come across.

I'm also yet to be convinced that there is any difference to be had from spending 20k on an amp (or CD player, or streamer) as opposed to 2k. Not sure where the diminishing return becomes no return, but I'd hazard a guess it is not at as high a level as they'd like us to believe....
 

Frank Harvey

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Jun 27, 2008
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Benedict_Arnold said:
Cyrus fans (like me) would argue that it's how their products sound rather than how they look that's important. I mean, what do you want, dancing LCD VU bars and a "Loud" button? A graphic equaliser as well, sir? Ooh, sir! Suits you, sir, suits you.

I'm sure Cyrus would argue that much beyond displaying whether you're playing a CD or listening to streamed content, the display isn't necessary. After all, go back to the early 80s, and all you got was a button that lit up or a little light above the button to show what you were listening to. And I would say if you can't figure out if you're listening to an LP, a CD or the radio, perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to work the stereo on your own anyway.
Exactly. I was told be Cyrus that they didn't feel the need to use fancy displays, as usually most people aren't sitting by the system when listening, and with regards to streamers, most people would be using the app, which would have all the info you need.

I agree it is nice to have a fancy display - Naim's streamer displays are great - but it is far less important than sound quality.
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
2
18,545
lpv said:
blades demo was one of the worst demo I had last year.. I think demo room was ok, expensive electronics, cables, well recorded music.. I don't remember the total price of the components but few times cheaper ATC in same room smashed blades..

for me mentioned naim sit probably at the top of british overpriced brands... same can be said about electrocompaniet ( but at least the performance of thier gold/ black boxes suits my taste better than naim)
I agree Electrocompaniet equipment is overpriced especially when compared with the amazing value of Abrahamsen equipment .

But at least you get plenty of stuff in the boxes and the sound quality ...........



Insides of an AW250 stereo power amp

Inside an EC4.8 pre- amp, yes a pre - amp!

 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
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Benedict_Arnold said:
MajorFubar said:
drummerman said:
(I'll excuse Cyrus and Naim with their displays as they could be deemed iconic) :)
Funnily enough Cyrus displays were right at the top of my list. The fluorescent displays on their early 4000, 7000 and PCM II machines were of their day and IMO looked fitting for their price. (You could argue I would say that, seeing I've just bought a used PCM II). But I'm afraid the displays on modern Cyrus equipment look like something they stole out of a Matsui / Saisho parts bin.
Cyrus fans (like me) would argue that it's how their products sound rather than how they look that's important. I mean, what do you want, dancing LCD VU bars and a "Loud" button? A graphic equaliser as well, sir? Ooh, sir! Suits you, sir, suits you.

I'm sure Cyrus would argue that much beyond displaying whether you're playing a CD or listening to streamed content, the display isn't necessary. After all, go back to the early 80s, and all you got was a button that lit up or a little light above the button to show what you were listening to. And I would say if you can't figure out if you're listening to an LP, a CD or the radio, perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to work the stereo on your own anyway.

That having been said, I do agree that, perhaps, it's time Cyrus re-thought their displays, at least for more complicated things like streamers.

In the long term I also think they need to re-think their die-cast shoeboxes, if only so they can put proper PSX-R quality power supplies in the same boxes as the components they serve, and not compel buyers to buy them separately. Then again, someone from Cyrus will be along shortly to explain that there are audio advantages to having separately boxed power supplies, so what do I know?
I disagree. Personally I think the incredibly well made magnesium alloy shoe boxes are iconic. To make them ful size would be a mistake.

Oddly enough, I get more comments on how they look (in a positive way) than sound though I rarely have Hifi sessions at home when friends are around.

As for the streaming displays, how many actually use the front panel display for that. In this day of apps and in cyrus's case their display window remote control surely thats enough.

Looks are marmite though as with everything. Style or a particular thing that identifies a brand and which has been established over decades is an other thing.

The only thing Ik'd change about the display is to make it a reverse lcd ie. green lettering on black background.

As to cyrus equipment constantly going wrong as per gazzip ... they had problems initially with their servo drive cd players but that seems to have been sorted out. - I have been using the brand for years and only recently had a capacitor failure in a cd player.

What I didn't like is/was their change of texture to the casings which can be confusing when putting together a second hand system and apparently some of the power led's have different brightness levels, not clever and easily avoided.
 

spiny norman

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Jan 14, 2009
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I'd think that Cyrus might have learned its lesson when it comes to trying to do something different: launched at £3000 and the subject of rave reviews, awards and all that stuff, the Lyric 09 appears to have tanked if the near half-price deals now available are anything to go by.

It may be a case of 'once bitten', I think.
 

macdiddy

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
87
3
18,545
http://www.selfridges.com/GB/en/cat/bang-olufsen-85-beovision-avant-television_541-10101-BEOVISIONAVANT85/?previewAttribute=Black&cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google-_-HomeTech-_-BANGOLUFSEN&ci_src="18615224&ci_sku=62432078&$$&_$ja=tsid:35948|cid:198914494|agid:10886279614|tid:pla-92173306894|crid:40398559294|nw:g|rnd:10631123886067103012|dvc:c|adp:1o4&gclid=COOJtJrdsMsCFWoz0wododIKZw"

talk about a "rip off" when you can buy a similar (and better) tv from richer sounds for around £7000 but then imo B&O have been ripping people off for years in the name of "lifestyle design", charging vastly inflated prices for products with basic specs.

*music2*
 

drummerman

New member
Jan 18, 2008
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macdiddy said:
http://www.selfridges.com/GB/en/cat/bang-olufsen-85-beovision-avant-television_541-10101-BEOVISIONAVANT85/?previewAttribute=Black&cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google-_-HomeTech-_-BANGOLUFSEN&ci_src="18615224&ci_sku=62432078&$$&_$ja=tsid:35948|cid:198914494|agid:10886279614|tid:pla-92173306894|crid:40398559294|nw:g|rnd:10631123886067103012|dvc:c|adp:1o4&gclid=COOJtJrdsMsCFWoz0wododIKZw"

talk about a "rip off" when you can buy a similar (and better) tv from richer sounds for around £7000 but then imo B&O have been ripping people off for years in the name of "lifestyle design", charging vastly inflated prices for products with basic specs.

*music2*
I can't talk about their AV systems and TV's but their Hifi stuff is often clever and very stylish. The company has also been involved in a number of innovations but I give you that style doesn't come cheap.

A friend dragged me through furniture stores after she bought a flat. All the usual stores carry stuff that looks very generic ie. almost the same as the next shop. We also visited BO Concept where a sofa costs £1500 upwards but she immediately fell in love with one ... . It doesn't do anymore (some of B&O products do more) but it sure looked good.
 

spiny norman

New member
Jan 14, 2009
293
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0
macdiddy said:
talk about a "rip off" when you can buy a similar (and better) tv from richer sounds for around £7000 but then imo B&O have been ripping people off for years in the name of "lifestyle design", charging vastly inflated prices for products with basic specs.
It's hardly a basic spec when you consider the high-quality and very flexible sound system built-in, the wireless audio integration, the self-calibration system, in-house picture processing, the ability to act as a control centre for a complete multichannel (and multiroom) sound system, and so on.

Their TVs are also beautifully built, again in-house, to a standard way beyond that of most 'mass market' brands, and I'm sure the company would argue that its designs are functional, not 'lifestyle'.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
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drummerman said:
The only thing Ik'd change about the display is to make it a reverse lcd ie. green lettering on black background.
IMO something as simple as that would make a huge positive impact. It's all fine and dandy saying the sound quality is the most important, and i'm not disputing that, but when you've dropped four figure sums on a single hifi component I reckon you have a right to expect every aspect of it to exude an aura of premium build and quality, and that includes having a display which doesn't look like it was ripped from a £50 Saisho microsystem.

The most important thing about a supercar is how it drives and handles but you don't want the inside to look like it was torn from an old Trabant.
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
338
145
19,070
macdiddy said:
http://www.selfridges.com/GB/en/cat/bang-olufsen-85-beovision-avant-television_541-10101-BEOVISIONAVANT85/?previewAttribute=Black&cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google-_-HomeTech-_-BANGOLUFSEN&ci_src="18615224&ci_sku=62432078&$$&_$ja=tsid:35948|cid:198914494|agid:10886279614|tid:pla-92173306894|crid:40398559294|nw:g|rnd:10631123886067103012|dvc:c|adp:1o4&gclid=COOJtJrdsMsCFWoz0wododIKZw"

talk about a "rip off" when you can buy a similar (and better) tv from richer sounds for around £7000 but then imo B&O have been ripping people off for years in the name of "lifestyle design", charging vastly inflated prices for products with basic specs.

*music2*
That's a pity, they used to be great innovators. In the early days of colour TV their Beovision TV gave the best picture you could get, with no picture blooming at high brightness because it used a separate regulated EHT generator. I had one. It wasn't cheap Pye tat dressed up like Dynatron was.

It doesn't look expensive compared to those KEF blade loudspeakers!
 

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
363
227
19,270
jonathanRD said:
Gazzip said:
Sound = complete tripe. £23K loudspeakers they are most definitely not.
Now I've listened to a whole album (vinyl) played through the Kef blades in a room appropriate for their size. I sat there thinking maybe my ears needed a clean and that I would rather be at home listening to my own system.
. Me too. I'm quite respectful of many KEF products, and have bought some in the past. I love the LS 50. But Blades were a big disappointment, and like you I heard them for a couple of hours.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
Electro said:
lpv said:
blades demo was one of the worst demo I had last year.. I think demo room was ok, expensive electronics, cables, well recorded music.. I don't remember the total price of the components but few times cheaper ATC in same room smashed blades..

for me mentioned naim sit probably at the top of british overpriced brands... same can be said about electrocompaniet ( but at least the performance of thier gold/ black boxes suits my taste better than naim)
I agree Electrocompaniet equipment is overpriced especially when compared with the amazing value of Abrahamsen equipment .

But at least you get plenty of stuff in the boxes and the sound quality ...........

Insides of an AW250 stereo power amp

Inside an EC4.8 pre- amp, yes a pre - amp!
Hi,

Yes, it is important for a hifi magazine to show the internal construction of a piece of equipment. It will provide you with a sense of value.

After designing my own amplifier, I can easily see why such equipment costs as much as it does. Besides the costs of the parts, you have to take into account the business costs for the manufacturer such as local taxes, and general taxes, shipping etc. Then there are margins for the hifi dealer, who has to not only pay for the buidling, rates, local and general taxes, but also a wage too - we all have to eat and live somewhere.

Sadly, to reduce costs exporting manufacturing to overseas is the only way to reduce costs. So the complaints regarding built in China is a result of taxation, and possibly people's complaint of too high costs of equipment.

I paid £400 20 years ago for an Audiolab 8000A which now costs more than double that.

Buying bulk is also a way of reducing costs, but then you require a significant capital to obtain the gains. This then means you have a lot of capital tied up in parts sitting there doing nothing. Next, you have continue to develop your product, or another product to complement existing.

Then you really do need favourable reviews. Else your product will not be sold despite the 10,000's of pounds investment.

So while the complaints about cheap parts may be correct, I think we ought to be a bit more considerate towards the manufacturers, especially those that do not sell direct, as margins have to be incorporated for all to survive.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
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spiny norman said:
I'd think that Cyrus might have learned its lesson when it comes to trying to do something different: launched at £3000 and the subject of rave reviews, awards and all that stuff, the Lyric 09 appears to have tanked if the near half-price deals now available are anything to go by.
Discontinued stock.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
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shadders said:
I paid £400 20 years ago for an Audiolab 8000A which now costs more than double that.
The recently discontinued 8200A wasn't based on the 8000A though. Audiolab introduced the 8000S in 1995 at £650, which went on to become the TAG McLaren 60iRV amplifier which were around £800 17/18 years ago. The succeeding models from Audiolab when the name was taken back were based on this model, and the pricing reduced, as Audiolab did away with anything "excessive" that Tag introduced - and excess was a word Tag specialised in. I don't know how close the new 8300A is to the Tag, but I believe it is the main model in the current Audiolab range that has received the most amount of attention, so presumably a fair amount of R&D has gone into it - the addition of balanced inputs for starters.

So technically speaking, there has never been an amplifier based on the original 8000A at all, which was discontinued in 1998.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
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spiny norman said:
David@FrankHarvey said:
Discontinued stock.
Exactly my point.
No, I mean the Lyric 09 is discontinued stock - the current model is the "Lyric" - as Cyrus reduced to the Lyric range from two (07 and 09) down to just one, as there was no real need for two models so closely priced.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,232
4
19,195
David@FrankHarvey said:
spiny norman said:
David@FrankHarvey said:
Discontinued stock.
Exactly my point.
No, I mean the Lyric 09 is discontinued stock - the current model is the "Lyric" - as Cyrus reduced to the Lyric range from two (07 and 09) down to just one, as there was no real need for two models so closely priced.
Regardless, it still looks like a cheap printer.
 

Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
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I disagree. Personally I think the incredibly well made magnesium alloy shoe boxes are iconic. To make them ful size would be a mistake.

From a technical perspective, using the magnesium "lids" as heat sinks (and actually bolting everything to them "upside" down) makes a lot of sense.

I just think they're artificially cramming themselves into those cases these days when, perhaps, the electronics, especially the power supplies / power capacitors in the power amps could do with more room, which, in turn, would make room on the fronts for better displays. Like you, though, I like the Cyurs boxes in general. If they don't want to make them wider or deeper, perhaps they could make them taller?

Oddly enough, I get more comments on how they look (in a positive way) than sound though I rarely have Hifi sessions at home when friends are around

​Agreed. Something different from the regular black boxes from the Japanese manufacturers and not some sort of avant garde expressionism either. I must confess I love the look of those expensive American amps with the "steampunk" VU meters though - can't remember the brand right now but they're expensive, REALLY expensive.

As for the streaming displays, how many actually use the front panel display for that. In this day of apps and in cyrus's case their display window remote control surely thats enough.

​Not sure I want to need to carry a phone or a tablet or anything else round with me to listen to music, but I haven't seen the new remote either. I grew up when you had to get up half-way through and flip the source medium over, after all....

Looks are marmite though as with everything. Style or a particular thing that identifies a brand and which has been established over decades is an other thing.

Agreed, but iconic brands evolve. Rolls-Royce isn't building Silver Ghosts anymore, Aston isn't building DB4s, either. (Sore point - my mate Alan, until recently a Chief Engineer at Aston, got laid off at Chrimbo because Aston is going over to using AMG engines and transmissions, and therefore the engine management systems Alan was responsible for).

The only thing Ik'd change about the display is to make it a reverse lcd ie. green lettering on black background.

​Not fussed so long as it can be turned off. All I want is the minimum amount of info needed to operate the kit.

As to cyrus equipment constantly going wrong as per gazzip ... they had problems initially with their servo drive cd players but that seems to have been sorted out. - I have been using the brand for years and only recently had a capacitor failure in a cd player.

I had one of the first CD-XT-SE units and didn't have any problems with it at all. Perhaps I got one of the first of the second batch though.

What I didn't like is/was their change of texture to the casings which can be confusing when putting together a second hand system and apparently some of the power led's have different brightness levels, not clever and easily avoided.

​Agreed, I was buliding my system up when the "quartz silver" went from smooth to sandpaper. Didn't like the sandpaper finish at all. Difficult to clean and looked cheap, like a cheap casting. Cyrus probably saves a couple of quid a casting by not having them buffed after they come out of the dies or something.
 

chrisr1718

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2009
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Edbo2 said:
Also I want to service my faithfully Cyrus One but dithering over the cost of £220 and no possible improvement in performance.
http://www.amprepairservices.co.uk/

£125 for the basic service, including parts & return postage and there's a definite improvement!!*yahoo*
 

spiny norman

New member
Jan 14, 2009
293
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David@FrankHarvey said:
No, I mean the Lyric 09 is discontinued stock - the current model is the "Lyric" - as Cyrus reduced to the Lyric range from two (07 and 09) down to just one, as there was no real need for two models so closely priced.
I see. The 'reinvented' version looks just the same as the discontinued one, and it's hardly making waves, is it?
 

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