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Real or imagined?

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
I read an article on TNT audio suggesting that modifications to the case of the Marantz CD63 could improve sound quality by reducing resonance, they suggested sticking Blutac inside the case to achieve this.

I found some self adhesive car sound deadening in my shed and set about sticking it to the inside of the CDP cover and to the bottom.

On reconnecting I found what I believe to be a notable improvement in SQ, especially bass sounding deeper and tighter.

Is this for real or has the power of suggestion made me think I'm hearing something that isn't there? On one hand I'm sure it's real but on the other hand how can a rattle casing effect sound?
 

busb

New member
Jun 14, 2011
58
0
0
There's something you can do that may help - take it off then listen again! Still not sure? Put it back & ask a friend to remove it or not then listen again.
 

bluedroog

New member
Mar 4, 2010
8
0
0
Try removing all the tac and you should hear a more natural sound that has room to breath.....
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
0
0
Gaz37 said:
I read an article on TNT audio suggesting that modifications to the case of the Marantz CD63 could improve sound quality by reducing resonance, they suggested sticking Blutac inside the case to achieve this.

I found some self adhesive car sound deadening in my shed and set about sticking it to the inside of the CDP cover and to the bottom.

On reconnecting I found what I believe to be a notable improvement in SQ, especially bass sounding deeper and tighter.

Is this for real or has the power of suggestion made me think I'm hearing something that isn't there? On one hand I'm sure it's real but on the other hand how can a rattle casing effect sound?
Some electronic components are microphonic. Their electrical properties change with strain or vibration. If you are unlucky enough to have valve based equipment, tapping a valve with a pencil will give a decent 'boing' out the speaker as the innards in the valve wobble about. Semiconductors are generally non-microphonic, but resistors and capacitiors can also be microphonic.

This can be a good thing, Clapton's guitar sound owes a lot to his Marshall valve amp combo having unintended feedback as the speaker in the cabinet rattles the valves. In most cases however it is best avoided.

Modern surface mount electronics are pretty much immune to microphony - the components are so small and so well fixed to the PCB that vibration doesn't really effect them.

It is easy to test. Put a CD in the player, put it on pause. Turn your amp way up, tap the CD player with a pencil. Hear anything out the speaker? If yes, then you have microphonic components in your CD player and just maybe the blutack makes a difference. If no, then put that TNT article straight in the bin and see if you can dislodge the blutack without breaking anything.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
It was car sound deadening mat.

I'm very sceptical but it didn't cost me anything and took 10 minutes to do.

Now I appear to have fallen for the placebo effect as I'm sure I can hear a difference that logically can't be there.

I certainly understand now why people who have spent big money on snake oil products insist that they work.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
shadders said:
Hi,

I think you will get a much improved sound from using the Russ Andrews DDE-1 product.

Regards,

Shadders.
I just googled it and its a stroke of genius, no claims are made about what it does or how it works.

Now if I "think" my free improvement has worked imagine how convinced somebody who has paid £3k to Mr Andrews would be?
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,232
4
19,195
shadders said:
Hi,

I think you will get a much improved sound from using the Russ Andrews DDE-1 product.

Regards,

Shadders.
It's about time What Hi-fi? reviewed the DDE-1 and proved that it's as effective as Russ Andrews claims on his website.
 

bigfish786

Moderator
Jan 29, 2013
258
83
18,970
there is no harm in experimenting with things like sound deadening. I'm sure arcam use this kind of stuff, called Stealth Mat. If you think it has improved the sound, then whatever you have done has worked. For you.

My own personal "tweek" I tend to do, is ensure all nuts, screws, bolts, hex bolts, etc are all nice and tight. Keeping everything as rigid as possible, hopefully preventing vibration.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
7
18,795
busb said:
There's something you can do that may help - take it off then listen again! Still not sure? Put it back & ask a friend to remove it or not then listen again.
It's a funny old game this hifi lark.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
I've just seen on Russ Andrews website that he sells exactly the same sound deadening mat that I used.

Oddly his costs £9.50 for one sheet, alternatively you could buy it from an EBay seller at £8.89 for 8 sheets.

How the hell does he get away with it?

He'll be trying to charge £25 for a fuse next..................
 

TomSawyer

New member
Apr 17, 2016
3
0
0
CD players aren't high power and are pretty efficient so I qualify my warning before I even give it, but when sticking things to cases remember that steel and aluminium are good thermal conductors and sound deadening products usually aren't.
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
andyjm said:
Gaz37 said:
I read an article on TNT audio suggesting that modifications to the case of the Marantz CD63 could improve sound quality by reducing resonance, they suggested sticking Blutac inside the case to achieve this.

I found some self adhesive car sound deadening in my shed and set about sticking it to the inside of the CDP cover and to the bottom.

On reconnecting I found what I believe to be a notable improvement in SQ, especially bass sounding deeper and tighter.

Is this for real or has the power of suggestion made me think I'm hearing something that isn't there? On one hand I'm sure it's real but on the other hand how can a rattle casing effect sound?
Some electronic components are microphonic. Their electrical properties change with strain or vibration. If you are unlucky enough to have valve based equipment, tapping a valve with a pencil will give a decent 'boing' out the speaker as the innards in the valve wobble about. Semiconductors are generally non-microphonic, but resistors and capacitiors can also be microphonic.

This can be a good thing, Clapton's guitar sound owes a lot to his Marshall valve amp combo having unintended feedback as the speaker in the cabinet rattles the valves. In most cases however it is best avoided.

Modern surface mount electronics are pretty much immune to microphony - the components are so small and so well fixed to the PCB that vibration doesn't really effect them.

It is easy to test. Put a CD in the player, put it on pause. Turn your amp way up, tap the CD player with a pencil. Hear anything out the speaker? If yes, then you have microphonic components in your CD player and just maybe the blutack makes a difference. If no, then put that TNT article straight in the bin and see if you can dislodge the blutack without breaking anything.
This is, of course, utter twaddle. Valves are only microphonic to an extent that matters if they are faulty or at the end of their lives. I have never had any issue with microphonic valves from any of the Valve Amps I have owned over the years. Tapping the Valves of my current S8's either Pre or Power valves causes no sound through the speakers. Valve innards do not 'wobble' about. You clearly have had a very bad experience with Valves, which if true, is not general, or you feel compelled for some reason, to spread FUD about them (I suspect the latter).

If Valves are truly as bad as you believe, please explain why manufacturers such as Luxman, Audio Note, MacIntosh, EAR Yoshino, Unison research, Icon Audio, Audio Research etc., - some of the most respected brands in Hi-End HiFi, continue to use them?

You really should read up on how feedback works in Guitar Amps too. - You really have made yourself look very foolish here.
 

Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
661
1
0
WHF journos in about 1993 or 4, about when I bought my Mission CD player and the external DAC that went with it, were extolling the virtues of putting green rubber bands round the outside edges of CDs.

Just saying...
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Infiniteloop said:
This is, of course, utter twaddle. Valves are only microphonic to an extent that matters if they are faulty or at the end of their lives. I have never had any issue with microphonic valves from any of the Valve Amps I have owned over the years. Tapping the Valves of my current S8's either Pre or Power valves causes no sound through the speakers. Valve innards do not 'wobble' about. You clearly have had a very bad experience with Valves, which if true, is not general, or you feel compelled for some reason, to spread FUD about them (I suspect the latter).

If Valves are truly as bad as you believe, please explain why manufacturers such as Luxman, Audio Note, MacIntosh, EAR Yoshino, Unison research, Icon Audio, Audio Research etc., - some of the most respected brands in Hi-End HiFi, continue to use them?

You really should read up on how feedback works in Guitar Amps too. - You really have made yourself look very foolish here.
If only that were true. My Coincident Frankenstein prototype 300b SET is microphonic. That's with new / NOS valves in it. Tap the amp casing and you can hear it through the speakers.

It is less microphonic than every turntable I've ever owned.

All this means is that for best results, turntable and microphonic valve amps should be well isolated from speakers, eg by placing them a relatively long way away.

Despite the microphony, the Coincident SET has still been good enough to win most (but not all) of the amplifier bake-offs it's been to.
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
0
0
Infiniteloop said:
andyjm said:
Gaz37 said:
I read an article on TNT audio suggesting that modifications to the case of the Marantz CD63 could improve sound quality by reducing resonance, they suggested sticking Blutac inside the case to achieve this.

I found some self adhesive car sound deadening in my shed and set about sticking it to the inside of the CDP cover and to the bottom.

On reconnecting I found what I believe to be a notable improvement in SQ, especially bass sounding deeper and tighter.

Is this for real or has the power of suggestion made me think I'm hearing something that isn't there? On one hand I'm sure it's real but on the other hand how can a rattle casing effect sound?
Some electronic components are microphonic. Their electrical properties change with strain or vibration. If you are unlucky enough to have valve based equipment, tapping a valve with a pencil will give a decent 'boing' out the speaker as the innards in the valve wobble about. Semiconductors are generally non-microphonic, but resistors and capacitiors can also be microphonic.

This can be a good thing, Clapton's guitar sound owes a lot to his Marshall valve amp combo having unintended feedback as the speaker in the cabinet rattles the valves. In most cases however it is best avoided.

Modern surface mount electronics are pretty much immune to microphony - the components are so small and so well fixed to the PCB that vibration doesn't really effect them.

It is easy to test. Put a CD in the player, put it on pause. Turn your amp way up, tap the CD player with a pencil. Hear anything out the speaker? If yes, then you have microphonic components in your CD player and just maybe the blutack makes a difference. If no, then put that TNT article straight in the bin and see if you can dislodge the blutack without breaking anything.
This is, of course, utter twaddle. Valves are only microphonic to an extent that matters if they are faulty or at the end of their lives. I have never had any issue with microphonic valves from any of the Valve Amps I have owned over the years. Tapping the Valves of my current S8's either Pre or Power valves causes no sound through the speakers. Valve innards do not 'wobble' about. You clearly have had a very bad experience with Valves, which if true, is not general, or you feel compelled for some reason, to spread FUD about them (I suspect the latter).

If Valves are truly as bad as you believe, please explain why manufacturers such as Luxman, Audio Note, MacIntosh, EAR Yoshino, Unison research, Icon Audio, Audio Research etc., - some of the most respected brands in Hi-End HiFi, continue to use them?

You really should read up on how feedback works in Guitar Amps too. - You really have made yourself look very foolish here.
One of the guilty pleasures I have is when an 'expert' comes along.

A good place to start would be to go onto Wikipedia and type in 'microphonics', but googling 'thermionic valve microphony' will bring up pages of links.

Perhaps you could pop back when you have read up on the subject and let us know what you have found.

No apology necessary.
 

chrisr1718

Well-known member
Sep 18, 2009
52
0
18,540
Benedict_Arnold said:
WHF journos in about 1993 or 4, about when I bought my Mission CD player and the external DAC that went with it, were extolling the virtues of putting green rubber bands round the outside edges of CDs.

Just saying...
...or green felt tip pen round the edge.*secret*
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
97
0
0
chrisr1718 said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
WHF journos in about 1993 or 4, about when I bought my Mission CD player and the external DAC that went with it, were extolling the virtues of putting green rubber bands round the outside edges of CDs.

Just saying...
...or green felt tip pen round the edge.*secret*
Have you not tried it, it really works.
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
97
0
0
chrisr1718 said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
WHF journos in about 1993 or 4, about when I bought my Mission CD player and the external DAC that went with it, were extolling the virtues of putting green rubber bands round the outside edges of CDs.

Just saying...
...or green felt tip pen round the edge.*secret*
Have you not tried it, it really works.
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
48
4
18,545
andyjm said:
Infiniteloop said:
andyjm said:
Gaz37 said:
I read an article on TNT audio suggesting that modifications to the case of the Marantz CD63 could improve sound quality by reducing resonance, they suggested sticking Blutac inside the case to achieve this.

I found some self adhesive car sound deadening in my shed and set about sticking it to the inside of the CDP cover and to the bottom.

On reconnecting I found what I believe to be a notable improvement in SQ, especially bass sounding deeper and tighter.

Is this for real or has the power of suggestion made me think I'm hearing something that isn't there? On one hand I'm sure it's real but on the other hand how can a rattle casing effect sound?
Some electronic components are microphonic. Their electrical properties change with strain or vibration. If you are unlucky enough to have valve based equipment, tapping a valve with a pencil will give a decent 'boing' out the speaker as the innards in the valve wobble about. Semiconductors are generally non-microphonic, but resistors and capacitiors can also be microphonic.

This can be a good thing, Clapton's guitar sound owes a lot to his Marshall valve amp combo having unintended feedback as the speaker in the cabinet rattles the valves. In most cases however it is best avoided.

Modern surface mount electronics are pretty much immune to microphony - the components are so small and so well fixed to the PCB that vibration doesn't really effect them.

It is easy to test. Put a CD in the player, put it on pause. Turn your amp way up, tap the CD player with a pencil. Hear anything out the speaker? If yes, then you have microphonic components in your CD player and just maybe the blutack makes a difference. If no, then put that TNT article straight in the bin and see if you can dislodge the blutack without breaking anything.
This is, of course, utter twaddle. Valves are only microphonic to an extent that matters if they are faulty or at the end of their lives. I have never had any issue with microphonic valves from any of the Valve Amps I have owned over the years. Tapping the Valves of my current S8's either Pre or Power valves causes no sound through the speakers. Valve innards do not 'wobble' about. You clearly have had a very bad experience with Valves, which if true, is not general, or you feel compelled for some reason, to spread FUD about them (I suspect the latter).

If Valves are truly as bad as you believe, please explain why manufacturers such as Luxman, Audio Note, MacIntosh, EAR Yoshino, Unison research, Icon Audio, Audio Research etc., - some of the most respected brands in Hi-End HiFi, continue to use them?

You really should read up on how feedback works in Guitar Amps too. - You really have made yourself look very foolish here.
One of the guilty pleasures I have is when an 'expert' comes along.

A good place to start would be to go onto Wikipedia and type in 'microphonics', but googling 'thermionic valve microphony' will bring up pages of links.

Perhaps you could pop back when you have read up on the subject and let us know what you have found.

No apology necessary.
No apology necessary indeed. I'll look up 'Microphonics' if you look up 'Feedback'.

But I guess that instead you'll just continue to peddle your misinformation and bias.

No need to come back at me. I'm tired of responding to 'Experts' who claim themselves as such because they think they've read enough about a subject to convince themselves that they know it all.
 

Benedict_Arnold

New member
Jan 16, 2013
661
1
0
BigH said:
chrisr1718 said:
Benedict_Arnold said:
WHF journos in about 1993 or 4, about when I bought my Mission CD player and the external DAC that went with it, were extolling the virtues of putting green rubber bands round the outside edges of CDs.

Just saying...
...or green felt tip pen round the edge.*secret*
Have you not tried it, it really works.
I almost fell for it.

Personally, I found the sound of Sheena Easton CDs could be improved with rubber bands.

Put one round the CD, hook it over a forked stick by a lake, pull back, and...
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
0
0
Infiniteloop said:
But I guess that instead you'll just continue to peddle your misinformation and bias.

No need to come back at me. I'm tired of responding to 'Experts' who claim themselves as such because they think they've read enough about a subject to convince themselves that they know it all.
Infinite, read up on the subject before you dig a bigger hole for yourself.

I have never pretended to know it all, but I would guess I am one of the few on this forum who are old enough to have actually designed equipment using valves.

You?
 

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