When mastering a pop/rock album for vinyl, not only is the bass mixed to mono below about 120hz (it varies) but is is usually filtered at 12dB/octave below about 70 hz.
The reason is simple, the more bass extension you cut, the wider the groove. This is not only difficult to track for a stylus but the wide grooves take up space and limit playing time.
If you want a side of an LP to play for anything approaching 20 minutes, the above restrictions are pretty much unavoidable.
Whilst we are at it, it is worth recalling that the dynamic range of an analogue record is severely compromised, tape noise, vinyl noise, phono stage noise and other factors limit the practical dynamic range to around 60dB.
Or in 'digital terminology' about 10 bits.
The reason is simple, the more bass extension you cut, the wider the groove. This is not only difficult to track for a stylus but the wide grooves take up space and limit playing time.
If you want a side of an LP to play for anything approaching 20 minutes, the above restrictions are pretty much unavoidable.
Whilst we are at it, it is worth recalling that the dynamic range of an analogue record is severely compromised, tape noise, vinyl noise, phono stage noise and other factors limit the practical dynamic range to around 60dB.
Or in 'digital terminology' about 10 bits.
There is so much (clearly unintended) misinformation in this thread that it's difficult to know where to start. But the short answer is, yes nearly all LPs will be cut from digital masters these days, and often the master will have been specially prepared for the process by changing the DR, EQ, or even a different mix entirely.
BigH
Well-known member
Some of you maybe interested in how a vinyl record is made: http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/how-to-master-a-record-noel-summerville-vinyl-dubplates-the-clash/
For those who think vinyl is pure analogue these days I think they are mistaken, very few vinyl records are pure analogue and I mean less than 0.1%, Noel Summerville made one a few years ago, but nearly all have digital involvement now.
For those who think vinyl is pure analogue these days I think they are mistaken, very few vinyl records are pure analogue and I mean less than 0.1%, Noel Summerville made one a few years ago, but nearly all have digital involvement now.
Ok let's start clearing up a few misunderstandings, with absolutely no intention to discredit the poster, who I'm sure offered his thoughts with the best intentions:
They are, but that's not the reason why records cut from a digital might sound different to the CD or download. They'd still sound just as different (or not) if the master they were cut from was 16/44.
ProTools wasn't around until the early 2000s, in fact the first number 1 song to be recorded on it was Livin The Vida Loca. Prior to computer-based solutions, studios were using digital tape recorders. This had been going on for about two decades by the time ProTools et al arrived, and digital delay lines have been in place for at least as long; as far back as the mid 70s if I recall, so that means huge swathes of albums from the 80s onwards were cut from a pre-digitized signal, even if the master was on an analogue tape.
No the theory (which is actually a theorem) very clearly states that 16/44 will sound exactly the same as anything higher unless your ears have the frequency response of a bat, irrespective of whether you burn it to a CD or cut it to a lacquer.
Initially it wasn't. The transition to digital in the 80s, firstly with tape then with digital audio workstations (DAWs), was hugely expensive, but it allowed for the kind of flexibility and dare I say it sound quality especially tape-to-tape copies from mulitrack to master then serial copies thereof for distribution and cutting/pressing, which had never been possible before.
And that's all that matters
splasher said:
They are, but that's not the reason why records cut from a digital might sound different to the CD or download. They'd still sound just as different (or not) if the master they were cut from was 16/44.
splasher said:
ProTools wasn't around until the early 2000s, in fact the first number 1 song to be recorded on it was Livin The Vida Loca. Prior to computer-based solutions, studios were using digital tape recorders. This had been going on for about two decades by the time ProTools et al arrived, and digital delay lines have been in place for at least as long; as far back as the mid 70s if I recall, so that means huge swathes of albums from the 80s onwards were cut from a pre-digitized signal, even if the master was on an analogue tape.
splasher said:
No the theory (which is actually a theorem) very clearly states that 16/44 will sound exactly the same as anything higher unless your ears have the frequency response of a bat, irrespective of whether you burn it to a CD or cut it to a lacquer.
keeper of the quays said:
Initially it wasn't. The transition to digital in the 80s, firstly with tape then with digital audio workstations (DAWs), was hugely expensive, but it allowed for the kind of flexibility and dare I say it sound quality especially tape-to-tape copies from mulitrack to master then serial copies thereof for distribution and cutting/pressing, which had never been possible before.
Mark Rose-Smith said:
And that's all that matters
Al ears
Well-known member
BigH said:
If you mean there is some digital process involved in cutting an LP from the original analogue master tape then I think you could be right. Or are you referring to any modern tracks put onto vinyl?
I can't think of an album made for the last 20 years or more that 100% guaranteed will have not been fed through any digital circuitry from the live recording to the cutting head. Sure there will be some, but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess to which ones.
Every time I see the Brothers In Arms LP canonized by vinyl disciples because it shows how great LPs can sound, I always have to chuckle as it was one of the first best selling DDD recordings, mastered on 16/44 Sony digital tape decks.
Every time I see the Brothers In Arms LP canonized by vinyl disciples because it shows how great LPs can sound, I always have to chuckle as it was one of the first best selling DDD recordings, mastered on 16/44 Sony digital tape decks.
steve_1979
Well-known member
BigH
Well-known member
I meant in the mastering and mixing, there was an article by Noel Summerville about how he made a pure analogue record for someone, but I can't find it now, he said it was quite difficult and time consuming to do but he managed in the end and the result was ok.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
The Mobile Fidelity release of this album is about as good as it gets on vinyl. It is excellent, but you can tell it is was originally digital when you listen to it.MajorFubar said:
splasher
Well-known member
MajorFubar said:
I didn't say otherwise.
MajorFubar said:
Pro Tools has been around since 1991 and was born out Sound Designer that pre-dated it. My point was merely to suggest that probably more albums from "back in the day" had a digital flavour than perhaps people realised.
MajorFubar said:
I didn't say "the theory", and no-one says "in theorum". I'll have to defer to your knowledge of Nyquist-Shannon (I didn't think it covered bit-depth) but again, my point was for the OP not to worry about the master not being analogue.
I think it's time I packed the forum in. I had assumed that a shared interest would create a level of inclusivity but there's too much ignoring the spirit of what's said in favour of finding a detail to contradict. No hard feelings meant, just time I went and sat at another table in the metaphorical pub of life.
steve_1979
Well-known member
BigH
Well-known member
David@FrankHarvey said:
I thought hifi dealers would have heard that enough times to last a 100 lifetimes?
sadly forums are much of a muchness..i was on petrolheads looking up re diesel additives and if you swapped engines..oil etc for hifi..you get the same views! Lol..everyone thinks their car is better. They know more than anyone else on anything to do with mechanics! Hahahah it reminded me of here! It's all subjective anyway...its not too bad here..i suppose.splasher said:
splasher said:
I'll give you that one...I was pretty sure it didn't arrive until much later...but you are right, it was 1991. But the rest of what I said stands.
splasher said:
You're over-reacting, we do all share a common interest. Other than I was wrong about ProTools (I genuinely did not know it dated back to 1991) I corrected only what I felt were inaccuracies.
The point we both seem to be trying to make is the chance of finding a vinyl LP made in the last 25 years or less which hasn't had some manipulation from a digital process is a lot harder than people think.
MajorFubar said:
It's a lot longer than that. I recall doing a London APRS show in the late/mid 70s that was showing one of the earliest digital delay lines, costing an absolute fortune.
It had, if I recall correctly, a 2+ second delay, just sufficient for use on a cutting lathe, the highpoint of the presentation was at the end, just walk across to the recorder (a fabulous ATR100) and press stop. The music continued of course, even if only for a couple or three seconds, very impressive for it's day.
So from the late 70's onward, even pure analogue masters were cut to vinyl via a digital delay line, no one really thought anything of it.
busb
Well-known member
I recently bought a pre-amp instead of driving my M-DAC straight into my power-amp - the reason being I want to buy a record deck in the near future. I doubt that I'll purchase any new vinyl, maybe a few 2nd hand but I will be playing the 200 or so records I never got rid of.
My 1st Philips CD player was bought around 1985 & I was quite glad to kiss goodbye to warped, crackly records that weren't referred to as vinyl until more recently. I can recall being impressed by some Ry Cooder LPs that were digitally mastered (they were probably just good masters) so digital recording was being used back then. I will not try to match any prospective deck's quality to my present system so will probably go for a new Rega P3 & Rega phono stage. I will be interested to see if I prefer the sound but my main motivation will be to listen to the small percentage that never made the transition to digital. I've stopped buying any music - I effectively just rent the right to stream it via iTunes.
My 1st Philips CD player was bought around 1985 & I was quite glad to kiss goodbye to warped, crackly records that weren't referred to as vinyl until more recently. I can recall being impressed by some Ry Cooder LPs that were digitally mastered (they were probably just good masters) so digital recording was being used back then. I will not try to match any prospective deck's quality to my present system so will probably go for a new Rega P3 & Rega phono stage. I will be interested to see if I prefer the sound but my main motivation will be to listen to the small percentage that never made the transition to digital. I've stopped buying any music - I effectively just rent the right to stream it via iTunes.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Used my earssteve_1979 said:
It sounded great, but it just had something about it - a certain "glassiness" to the sound, is the best that I can describe it - lacking a bit of sweetness. Thinking about it now, it reminded me of Michael Jackson's Bad, which I find soulless. Maybe it's just showing its age.
davedotco said:
Indeed, I think the very first one appeared in about 73? But I was trying to be generous and factor-in the possibility that it maybe it took as long as a decade for them to totally replace the old analoge delay lines. But as you know, vinyl mastering/cutting techniques are not my specialist, so I'm speculating.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
It would be interesting to have it confirmed as to whether the Foo Fighter's Wasting Light LP had any digital manipulation. As mentioned earlier, Dave Grohl purchased the huge analogue mixing console from Sound City to install into his own studio in his garage, where the album was recorded to tape via this mixing desk, as Dave wanted to avoid digital, and try and retain something that hundreds of extremely well known albums had that had also been mixed via this desk.MajorFubar said:
The vinyl hasn't been compressed in the same way the CD has.
BIA was the first DDD CD I ever bought and the first thing I noticed was not even a hint of tape hiss on the quiet parts.
Gazzip said:
Thank you everybody. A wealth of knowledge and extremely interesting stuff which goes a long way to clarifying why vinyl may have a "different" sound signature. So it sounds as if the use of digital recording and mastering has been integral to the vinyl production process for many, many years, and that there is nothing to really be concerned about with contemporary vinyl and re-releases.
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