PS3 to get DTS HD (Official) 17th of April

[Anonymous]

Apologies, if this is a stupid question but as the PS3 only has 1 HDMI port, how does it deliver audio to an amp and video to a TV at the same time?

 

[Clare Newsome]

Most modern amps have HDMI switching - so the sound and vision goes via a single HDMI cable to the AV amp, which then outputs the video to your TV.

 

[D.J.KRIME]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
Most modern amps have HDMI switching - so the sound and vision goes via a single HDMI cable to the AV amp, which then outputs the video to your TV.

[/quote] Alas my poor old Yamaha RXV2500 has none of these new features so I am stuck to the PS3's optical output and miss any wiff of HD sound

But on the bright side, at least my Plaz is 50"" and 1080p/24fps so it aint all bad in the KRIMESTER'S house!

 

[PadRock]

So as I only have an coaxial / optical input on my amp, does that mean I can't get any of this nice, shiney new audio from th PS3?

 

[Anonymous]

Doubtful.

Oddly enough the official UK Playstation website doesn't mention a single solitary thing about the 2.30 upgrade.

Is there a list anywhere of DTS-HD movies anywhere?

 

[D.J.KRIME]

[quote user="PadRock"]
So as I only have an coaxial / optical input on my amp, does that mean I can't get any of this nice, shiney new audio from th PS3?

[/quote] Nope! Like me you are stuck with plain old Dolby 5.1 or normal DTS sound tracks as the optical output can not carry a HD audio bitstream or even a uncompressed PCM soundtrack.

 

[Anonymous]

You guys at whathifi will have to create a new 6 star category soon with all the upgrades the PS3 is adding lol

 

[Anonymous]

Hello What Hi-Fi,

I'm a long time reader of What Hi-Fi and subscribe, and have been a bit perplexed and rather dismayed at the coverage/understanding of the latest HD sound formats in the magazine, and this thread has further fueled that confusion somewhat. So allow me to try fill in some blanks here if you please.

As Andrew points out, you should treat the new bit-for-bit copies of the original HD soundtracks as zipped up files which contain all the sound data from the original master. This includes Dolby True-HD and DTS-MA (Master Audio). I'll post a quote from an article that will explain it a lot better than I at the end of this post.

The next point is that currently the PS3 CANNOT decode DTS-MA and output it in lossless PCM format. All it can do is decode the DTS core and output that. You are losing the DTS-MA extensions.

The proposed firmware fix should enable the PS3 to fully decode the DTS-MA soundtrack and output it in lossless PCM (LPCM) through the HDMI cable and into any amp capable of accepting an HDMI input. This means you simply do not have to upgrade your amplifier to one of the latest with the latest sound format codecs on-board.

You have stated in recent reviews, specifically the Audiolab 8000AP (which I've just bought and love!), that it's a negative thing that it doesn't have on-board decoding of the latest HD formats... when the reality of it is that it simply doesn't need them! Once the PS3 can decode the DTS-MA internally and output it to the Audiolab, I can listen to just about everything HD format going. Job done!

There is simply no need for the PS3 to output bitstream for DTS-MA... as the only improvement you will get, is some lights flashing up on your new amp/receivers saying DTS-MA. That's it!

I hope this has cleared up some of the confusion, and if not... here's that article:

New HD lossless audio formats:

In addition to HDMI's current ability to support high-bandwidth
uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed
formats (such as Dolby Digital and DTS), HDMI 1.3 adds additional
support for new lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD
and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Perhaps the single most confusing aspect of HDMI 1.3 is its support for
high-resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD,
and DTS-HD, all of which require more bandwidth (and copy protection)
than can be transmitted over the old digital coaxial or Toslink optical
audio connections that were sufficient for Standard-Def DVD. If using
one of those cable types, the HD DVD or Blu-ray player will downconvert
the DD+, TrueHD, or DTS-HD signal to standard Dolby Digital or DTS
quality. In order to benefit from the full high-resolution quality of
these formats, the player must be connected by either HDMI or
multi-channel analog. For the purposes of this article, we're obviously
going to focus on the HDMI transmission method.

As I sat down to write out a detailed explanation of how the audio
formats are handled on both Blu-ray and HD DVD, I realized that I would
probably never be able to summarize the situation nearly as concisely
or eloquently as this description from AVSForum member Sanjay Durani,
which is reprinted here with permission:

First let's clarify some nomenclature. Dolby and DTS have both
introduced new audio codecs. The lossy ones are DD+ (Dolby Digital
Plus) and DTS-HD (High Definition). The lossless codecs are Dolby
TrueHD and DTS-HD MA (Master Audio).

Think of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA as zipping a computer file to save
space. None of the data is discarded, just packed more efficiently to
take up less storage space. When you unzip the file, 100% of the data
is still there, and you get a bit-for-bit copy of the original.

If you had a zipped document that you wanted to send me on disc, you
would have two choices. You could unzip it on your computer before
putting it on the disc. Or you could send it to me as a zipped file
(would take up less space on the disc) and I could unzip it on my
computer. Either way, I end up with the exact same document, down to
the last letter.

Likewise, decoding (unpacking) a soundtrack in the player or in the
receiver will yield the exact same results. It's not like high end
receivers have a special secret version of TrueHD decoding reserved for
them that cheap players aren't allowed to have. It's just format
decoding. If certain audio data is flagged for the left front channel,
then decoding in the worlds most expensive receiver won't place that
data somehow "more" into the left front channel than decoding in the
world's cheapest player.

Going back to the zipped document analogy. If you wanted to change
anything in the document, from simple correction of spelling mistakes
to complex re-formatting for a better look, you would first need to
unzip that document. You wouldn't be able to manipulate it while it was
still zipped.

Similarly, everything a receiver does to the soundtrack, up to and
including D/A conversion, requires the soundtrack to be in uncompressed
PCM form. In fact, when you send your receiver a DD or DTS bitstream,
the first thing it does is decompress the soundtrack to linear PCM.
Only then can it apply things like bass management, time alignment,
etc.

Soundtracks on HD DVD (and eventually on Blu-ray, when it goes
interactive) operate very differently than they do on DVD. With current
DVDs, you need entirely separate soundtracks for things like foreign
languages and filmmaker's commentary. This is actually a pretty
wasteful approach.

With HD DVD, soundtracks can be authored in the 'Advanced' mode, which
allows multiple content streams to be live-mixed (mixed in real time).
You don't need another soundtrack for foreign languages. Just swap out
the English centre channel stream with one of the foreign centre
channel streams. You don't need another soundtrack for commentary. Just
reduce the level of the main soundtrack and mix in the commentary
stream. Same with button sounds and other interactive features, like
picture-in-picture.

Just like editing the document requires unzipping the file first, doing
any of this live-mixing to the soundtrack requires decoding it to
linear PCM first. This is why it has to be done in the player. They're
not going to transmit every option to your receiver, just one
soundtrack. You choose what you want to hear, it is mixed in the player
(i.e. the soundtrack you want to hear is literally built in real time
inside the player) and transmitted as a final mix to your receiver.

Current HDMI allows 8 channels of 96/24 PCM to be transmitted (more
than enough resolution for any soundtrack), but not the new codecs in
their native form. When HDMI 1.3 arrives, it will allow the new codecs
mentioned above to be transmitted in their native bitstream, but only
if they were authored in 'Basic' mode (no interactivity). If the
soundtrack was authored in Advanced mode, then it cannot be transmitted
in undecoded form; decoding in the player is mandatory because of live
mixing.

So far, all HD DVD soundtracks have been authored in Advanced mode.
Which means nothing will change when new receivers arrive on the
market. Despite having HDMI 1.3 transmission and decoders built into
the receiver, decoding will still have to take place in the player.

Currently, Blu-ray discs are authored in Basic mode, since they haven't
gotten interactivity yet. As soon as BD Java is up and working, they'll
all be authored in Advanced mode too. At that point, what are the
decoders in the receivers going to do? Decode the relatively few BD
titles that were released before interactivity? Most of those titles
will be re-issued anyway.

Personally, I'm glad that decoding is shifting to the player. I wish it
had always been that way. Since receivers need the data in PCM form
anyway, that's what every player should be outputting (irrespective of
what format is used to store the data on the disc). As mentioned
before, when new audio codecs and formats arrive, you'll have to buy a
new player. But as long as the players keep outputting the audio in PCM
form, current receivers will always remain compatible with anything
that shows up in the future. How elegant is that!

Once again, marketing material from the hardware manufacturers is
misleading. Onkyo outright claims that their upcoming DV-HD805 HD DVD
player offers "streaming of the new lossless surround sound formats,
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, as well as two 'lossy' formats,
Dolby Digital Plus and DTS©-HD High Resolution Audio." Sure, the player
will be able to transmit the bitstreams of those formats, but only if
the disc is authored in Basic mode, which no HD DVDs are, a fact they
conveniently neglect to mention.

So, after all that, what does HDMI 1.3 truly gain the HD DVD or Blu-ray
consumer that couldn't be gotten from any of the previous existing
versions of HDMI? Frankly, not a lot. 1.3 offers the ability to
transmit extended color ranges that don't even exist in the source, and
makes available the delivery of raw audio bitstreams that are better
off decoded inside the player first anyway, after which they can be
(and currently are with great success) transmitted as uncompressed PCM
by any version of HDMI. Honestly, the only real innovation that HDMI
1.3 allows for is the enhanced lip sync correction feature, and there's
no indication of when or how that might be implemented.

If you were buying a new HDTV or A/V receiver right now and wanted to
feel thoroughly future-proofed, it certainly couldn't hurt to make sure
that they're HDMI 1.3 compliant, but there's no reason to feel nervous
or cheated if they aren't. At the present time, for all practical
applications, any version of HDMI is perfectly capable of transmitting
the best that Blu-ray or HD DVD offers just as well as any other.
Unfortunately, HDMI 1.3 is more hype than substance.

p.s. expensive HDMI cables vs cheap HDMI cables will be my next grumble... hehe

 

[FuzzyinLondon]

Great post Eiren. It should be pointed out to enjoy the best sound from the PS3, you do, at the very least need an amp that can accept LPCM over HDMI. As the PS3 has no analog outputs, the HDMI is the only way to get HD audio and you need an amp that is capable of extracting the audio information (LPCM) from a HDMI signal and only passing through the picture information. There are a lot of older amps that won't do this despite having HDMI switching.

 

[professorhat]

Hi all!

To be honest, I don't really care if it decodes onboard or bitstreams it as I intend to buy a surround amp which can cope with either (to cope with any future stand alone Blu-Ray players I might buy). However, I think it's important to clarify how the PS3 does export the signal for anyone who's in a position where they have a PS3, their amp doesn't decode DTS MA HD, but does accept PCM over HDMI. And also because I'm just plain curious!

Thanks for your efforts as always guys!

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the very useful and informative post Eiren - you are certainly spot-on with the PS3's audio capabilities.

However, our argument for the inclusion of HD audio decoding onboard AV receivers still stands, as the majority of them do a better job of decoding than the PS3 (or other current Blu-ray player).

However, it's certainly true that you will be able to take advantage of HD audio using your Audiolab 8000 - I'll be doing the same with my aging Denon!

 

[Anonymous]

Well that's just it, the point it was making was that you will always end up with the same 0s and 1s whichever end does the decoding.

There's a further reason why decoding on-board the player is actually beneficial, and that is when you are playing back a commentary track. If you bitstream the DTS-MA to an amplifier, you will not be able to also bitstream the commentary track at the same time, as this is a seperate stream.

Decoding at the player means it can combine the streams and output as lossless PCM.

The only way your amplifier can do a better job of decoding the stream, is if it has a problem with correctly receiving the lossless PCM stream. Remember you are getting every single 0 and 1 through which has come directly from the studio master... so nothing is lost!

All DTS-MA capable machines use the same decoding algorhythm... so you'll always end up with the same result. There's simply no such thing as one machine being better at decoding than another.

The difference in the performance in amplifiers/receivers comes from how good they are at converting the digital signals into analogue signals to output to the further amplification/speakers.

Hope that clarifies again!

 

[Anonymous]

Here it is - as promised earlier on, I've got an official response and, indeed, official confirmation from Sony Computer Entertainment UK. And, as we've all already worked out for ourselves, the DTS-HD upgrade is, indeed, limited to internal decoding to PCM, and doesn't provide a digital bitstream for decoding offboard.
Apologies for the confusion caused, folks. As others have pointed out - some very eloquently - the news is still good, in that it adds more audio capability to the PS3's armoury, but the wording of Sony's press release, plus the conflicting statement made by the Director of PlayStation Network Operations in the states yesterday (see my link in an earlier post) have taken us off at a tangent somewhat.
Anyway: roll on next Tuesday.

 

[Anonymous]

Eiren, the argument that digital is digital and there's never any loss or quality variation is one that has been used in many home cinema and hi-fi discussions over the years. However, we are constantly doing side-by-side comparisons and politely have to disagree. I notice that you also have strong feelings on HDMI cables, and I would say the same applies there - once you've tested and compared vast quantities of the things, you realise there is a difference in quality, regardless of what the science might say.

 

[professorhat]

Thanks for clearing this up Andy! I think this is probably the best move by Sony as it makes it the most accessible to people who (probably) haven't bought the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player but are discovering the advantages of having this built in!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Tom Parsons"]Eiren, the argument that digital is digital and there's never any loss or quality variation is one that has been used in many home cinema and hi-fi discussions over the years. However, we are constantly doing side-by-side comparisons and politely have to disagree. I notice that you also have strong feelings on HDMI cables, and I would say the same applies there - once you've tested and compared vast quantities of the things, you realise there is a difference in quality, regardless of what the science might say.[/quote]

Without turning the great news from Sony thread into a massive quagmire of off-topicness... surely if you are presenting the digital to analogue conversion with the exact same bits and bytes, you'll always get the same output... or are you saying that there's a mechanism that can lose 0s and 1s on the route from the media to the DA converters?

HDMI isn't flawless I admit, it's quite suceptable to digital jitter and has no jitter correction in place... but this again wouldn't affect the flow of bits from a Blu-ray disc to your amp/receiver's DA converter.

 

[Anonymous]

So can anyone provide a link for an amp or a package that will do DTS HD. What should I be looking for in the specs of amps.

Thanks

 

[PJPro]

I think the conclusion of the thread is that if you have a PS3, you won't need an amp that'll do DTS HD

 

[Anonymous]

Correct - you just need an amp that will do PCM via HDMI. Here are a few examples of such amps:

Onkyo 605

Sony 910

Sony 720

Denon 1908

Marantz SR4002

(and all amps above them in their respective ranges of course).

There are others, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.

Oh and for whoever was asking which Blu-ray's feature dts-MA tracks, basically all Fox Blu-rays do and a few others do too. Check out http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php for more.

 

[Anonymous]

What about this Sony .http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/r/sony-ht-ddw890 Will this do it for me or will I have to go for one above this.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
Don't fret - you're still well-equipped to enjoy Blu-ray discs' PCM soundtracks (which, being uncompressed, are preferable to any Dolby or DTS mix, regardless of fancy 'HD' titles).

[/quote]

i spose your right im happy now im getn a hd pana soon!!!!

 

[PJPro]

Not sure how much dosh you have to spend.....but the onkyo 605 comes highly recommended. It could fall in price soon as the new 606 is due for release any momet now.

 

[professorhat]

[quote user="hughes2558"]
What about this Sony .http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/r/sony-ht-ddw890 Will this do it for me or will I have to go for one above this.
[/quote]
Hi mate - finally found details for this machine on Sony's Latvian page (bizarre I know!). It says here which states it doesn't accept Linear PCM through the HDMI port. Sorry!

 

[Anonymous]

Just to help clear up my own personal confusion, am I correct in assuming that when the upgrade wings itself onto my PS3 next week it will make no difference to the sound set-up I have with my Sony Dav-is10 since the audio link between the 2 Sony's is an optical one?. Or am I missing a trick and by re-connecting I would then benefit?.

I'm chuffed to bits with the sound I get now, but obviously would like to know that I am getting the best that my set-up allows.

 

[professorhat]

No, it won't affect the sound you get with an optical cable. Still, the update to the PSN store is good news for the rest of us!