PS3 HD Audio

[admin_exported]

Hello,

I've hooked my PS3 up to my new Denon AVR1909 by HDMI.

I've set the PS3 audio output to Bitstream and automatic for the rest of the [output format] settings.

My problem is that the Denon is not indicating that it is receiving HD Audio.

Any ideas?

rob

 

[Anonymous]

you need to pop the ps3 in lpcm output! it decodes internally and output's lpcm! you amp should them show multichannel or similar but it will be HD sounds if they are on the disk!!!

 

[professorhat]

Hi there,
Has been discussed a number of times this one - basically the PS3 can't bitstream HD audio formats (i.e. send them out in the encoded format like Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio). Instead what it does is decode these formats onboard and send them out as a Linear PCM signal. This is set under BD / DVD Settings > BD / DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI). Your amp will not show it is playing Dolby TrueHD or whichever format as the sound has been decoded from this format already, so the amp does not know what format it is. However, you are getting the full HD audio so don't worry about this.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your insights guys

 

[Anonymous]

Is it possible to output sound via the PS3's optical and picture via HDMI? Presumably this would only give Dolby Digital sound - not HD?

 

[professorhat]

Yup, that's absolutely possible.

 

[Anonymous]

professorhat:Hi there,

Has been discussed a number of times this one - basically the PS3 can't bitstream HD audio formats (i.e. send them out in the encoded format like Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio). Instead what it does is decode these formats onboard and send them out as a Linear PCM signal. This is set under BD / DVD Settings > BD / DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI). Your amp will not show it is playing Dolby TrueHD or whichever format as the sound has been decoded from this format already, so the amp does not know what format it is. However, you are getting the full HD audio so don't worry about this.

This should be your next "HOW TO..." Prof, seing as it gets asked so many times around here.

 

[PJPro]

Yes, agree. This has been discussed a million times....and there are pitfalls. I fell into one and it took a day with Mr E to get to the bottom of it.

This issue related to setting the sound formats to support on the PS3 itself. I am far from convinced that all folk have done this....it was only when I ran the THX tests that I realised I had a problem. Indeed there have been a number of posts since my issue was sorted where I have steered people towards the same solution.

 

[professorhat]

Lewis201:professorhat:Hi there,

Has been discussed a number of times this one - basically the PS3 can't bitstream HD audio formats (i.e. send them out in the encoded format like Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio). Instead what it does is decode these formats onboard and send them out as a Linear PCM signal. This is set under BD / DVD Settings > BD / DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI). Your amp will not show it is playing Dolby TrueHD or whichever format as the sound has been decoded from this format already, so the amp does not know what format it is. However, you are getting the full HD audio so don't worry about this.

This should be your next "HOW TO..." Prof, seing as it gets asked so many times around here.

Hmm tricky one this one. I can certainly do one on the PS3 settings and also what an Onkyo 905 should be set to ideally. As PJPro alludes, there's various other factors which come into play (I remember reading the posts between himself and Mr E before I got my Onkyo amp and they helped me get it all setup correctly when I did take the plunge). Some of these may well be outside what I can post from my own experience...

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Prof, when you say full HD audio, what bit rate is it being sampled as? When I hit the select button on my PS3 controller for playback of Dolby true HD and HD MA 5.1 the bit rate always comes up as 48kHz and fluctuates between 2 and 5 Mbps and more than 6mbps for uncompressed PCM audio. Now I know that True HD and HD MA can deliver up to 18 mbps and 25 mbps respectively. But 2 and 5 mbps can hardly be described as full HD audio. I am using a monster gamelink HDMI cable from my PS3 connected to a 606. Are these the correct bit rates, or does my HDMI cable need upgrading? Am I using the correct settings on the 606? Is Uncompressed PCM audio processed at a higher resolution than DTS MA? Further, on page 62 of the 606 manual it states that "192kHz DTS-HD Master Audio sources are processed at 96kHz". Any input will be most appreciable.

Happiness is but an occasional episode in the general drama of pain.

 

[professorhat]

Hmm, okay, you seem to be assuming there is a standard known as "Full HD" for audio, which of course there isn't. In fact, there is no such standard as "HD audio" - it's just a term used to describe when a Blu-Ray disc is using one of the new standards developed by Dolby or DTS or has an uncompressed PCM soundtrack included. In most cases, these soundtracks probably won't get anywhere near the formats theoretical maximum (due to the lack of space on the disc I would imagine), but a bit rate of 5 Mbps has over ten times more detail in than the 448 kbs used in standard Dolby Digital on a DVD. In this sense therefore, it is classified HD audio.
When I said the person was getting "full HD audio", it was merely to hammer home the point a lot of people don't get when they first use the PS3 in that, even though their amp isn't telling them it is playing the correct soundtrack, because it's being decoded on board, they are. Sorry if this has caused confusion.

 

[Anonymous]

So somebody with a stand alone blu-ray player will experience the same bit rate output as the PS3? The only difference being that their receiver will do the decoding and indicate it on the receiver as True HD or DTS HD MA.

So my question to Dolby,DTS and the movie studios would be; why market the HD sound formats at such high bit rates when all we're getting is around 20% of the HD content? Personally I would rather settle for 50% (750kbps) of a DTS audio on a standard DVD than be ripped off for 80% on a Blu-ray that cost almost 4 times as much and if space is a problem why not include 2 discs, we're certainly paying for it.

If True HD and DTS MA can do the bit rates they're suppose to, that is what we want to hear or at least as close to that as possible because we went out and bought the equipment to do it.

Happiness is but an occassional episode in the general darma of pain.

 

[professorhat]

Well, remember, Dolby and DTS are probably developing these standards with future in mind. At the moment, a single layer Blu-Ray disc holds 25Gb of information, double layered 50Gb. Some movie studios in the early days decided to save a bit of money and only use a single layer disc so this gives 25Gb of space. Now this has to be split between the video and audio of the movie, plus any special features included on the disc. Dependent on what format the video transfer is in, this will take up a certain amount of space on this disc, leaving only a certain amount for audio and a decision can be made as to which soundtrack format they will use (e.g. Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio or maybe just plain old Dolby Digital if they've done a very good quality video transfer).
Nowadays, I believe most Blu-Rays are stored on dual-layer Blu-Ray discs giving 50Gb of space, meaning high quality video transfers and audio transfers are possible, but again this must be balanced with the amount of special edition content included and what format these are in. Effectively, it's all a juggling act with the amount of space available.
Finally, dual-layer discs are in no way the limit here. I believe they have now got up to 10 layers in the labs (though it'll be time before these are commercially available) giving up to 250Gb. Obviously Dolby and DTS were well aware of this when they came up with their standards, as well as the possibility of another format coming after Blu-Ray with even more capacity and have designed these standards accordingly. So even though there is a maximum of 18 Mbps bandwidth using Dolby TrueHD, it doesn't mean you're being short changed if the movie studio's transfer is only using 5 Mbps per second. Would you be happier if Dolby had made the standard only have a maximum of 5 Mbps? I can't really see why as you'd still be getting exactly the same sound. As I've said, that's still 10 times what's possible on a DVD and you're complaining about paying 4 times more (which is most likely inaccurate). Even with this, you're not even taking into account the much better visuals you're getting with Blu-Ray.
If you don't think Blu-Ray is worth it for you, fair enough, but I'm afraid your justification for this with figures just doesn't add up.

 

[professorhat]

Faizal:Personally I would rather settle for 50% (750kbps) of a DTS audio on a standard DVD than be ripped off for 80% on a Blu-ray that cost almost 4 times as much
If I'm reading this right, you'd prefer to have a soundtrack that's encoded at 750kbps instead of one that's encoded at 5Mbps (or 5,120kbps i.e. 6.83 times the bitrate). So you'd prefer 6x times less detail in your soundtrack?
Faizal:and if space is a problem why not include 2 discs, we're certainly paying for it.
Erm, two discs? What one with the video on and one with the sound on? So you'd then need two Blu-Ray players, one hooked up to the TV and the other your amp and you'd need to ensure you pressed Play on them at exactly the same time so the video and audio were in sync. It's an idea I guess...

 

[lee37]

the ps3 can only output true hd and dts hd by downscaling it to LPCM hence the 192kHz DTS-HD Master
Audio sources are processed at 96kHz quote

as my amp can output true hd etc i wasnt happy with just LPCM and a 3mbps bitrate

so i purchased a toshiba ep35 and compared it to my ep 30.
(ep 30 LPCM output, ep 35 bitstream via hdmi)
the sound that was output on the ep35 as true hd was better quality than the LPCM on the ep30

now i am probably being picky but i could definetly tell the difference
the true hd was 15mbps and the lpcm was 3-4mbps and true hd was better

there are a lot of people on this site saying get this amp it doesnt matter that it cant do true hd
but does LPCM and its the same.

NO it isnt and surely if a signal being sent should be 15mbps and is reduced to 3 mbps something
must be lost in the quality

from dts hd white paper

DTS-HD Master Audio for Blu-ray Disc offers Lossless Audio, the highest quality available for movies and
music. Lossless audio is a "bit-for-bit" identical recreation of the original studio master recording, free from
loss. In the Blu-ray Disc format, DTS-HD is capable of up to 24.5 Mbps variable data rate, 7.1 discrete
channels, with a sampling frequency up to 96 kHz and 24-bits of signal resolution, and 192 kHz / 24 bits
in 2-channel.

so i think the bitrate does matter and im getting a sony s350 blu ray player to use instead of my ps3 just for the better sound

also the lack of space on the disc is wrong most blue ray discs on dual layer are only about 30-35 gb in size and the disc hold about 45gb so they could easily fit the audio on and some only have LPCM audio and fill about 28gb.
most do have dts hd core or true hd
i think it is the studios doing sloppy transfers and plan to rerealease an ultime hd
version to make us buy the same disc twice look at dvd for example

 

[professorhat]

lee37:i think it is the studios doing sloppy transfers and plan to rerealease an ultime hd version to make us buy the same disc twice look at dvd for example
Yup, I certainly wouldn't put that past them.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay here we go, just to set the record straight, firstly, don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of the Blu-ray format it's just that I don't think that Blu-ray is being utilised to its full potential. Secondly, when I said why not include 2 discs, I mean't 1 disc for the movie ( BD content included) and the 2nd for the extra features, like you get on some standard DVD's. Thirdly, if we can get 50% of DTS on standard DVD's, why can't we get 50% of HD content on Blu-rays (The point I was trying to make).

If the standard maximum was only 5 Mbps I would be quite satisfied, as that is exactly what we're getting,but that is certainly not the case here.

Believe me when I say that the price of a Blu-ray disc (R300.00) here in South Africa is 4 times as much than that of an average priced standard DVD (R75.00)

Apetite for Destruction.

 

[professorhat]

Okay, to be fair, I am playing devil's advocate a little here as in a way I agree with you. However, you do need to understand, as an early adopter of a format, these are pains you have to go through. You can use the argument that we shouldn't have to as much as you like, the fact of the world is, you do. It was the same with DVD, it will be the same for Blu-Ray so your choice is either to be an early adopter and try and help the format succeed by making informed purchases, or stick with DVD until prices come down to a more reasonable level. However:
Faizal:Thirdly, if we can get 50% of DTS on standard DVD's, why can't we get 50% of HD content on Blu-rays (The point I was trying to make).
The point I'm trying to make is, you're not comparing this fairly. You can get 50% of DTS bandwidth on DVD because this bitrate fits happily on a DVD. You can't get 50% of DTS HD Master Audio, because, as far as I'm aware, half doesn't fit happily on a Blu-Ray alongside a decent video transfer. This isn't a shortcoming of Blu-Ray or the DTS HD Master Audio format, it's just the two are completely separate (just as DVD and standard DTS are two completely independent standards). One rule for one does not necessarily mean one rule for the other.
lee37 has made some claims which I need to investigate as I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of them. My understanding was the PS3 decoded the formats in their entirety so there's no way a 15Mbps Dolby TrueHD soundtrack should become a 3 Mbps LPCM soundtrack after decoding (though I freely admit I may be wrong and I'll come back and post if I am). I'll look into this when I have a bit more time.

 

[lee37]

ok fair point

so national treasure 2 on blu ray via ps3

using an original 60 gb ps3 with latest firmware output to a sony 820 receiver via a qed hdmi-p cable, signal sent to receiver is LPCM

display from ps3

dolby true hd 5.1ch 48khz 3.5-4mbps avc 20-32mbps

i cannot test this on a full size blu ray player until my s350 arrives on thursday

my comparison with the lpcm and bitstream signal was using the hd dvd players

dont get me wrong the LPCM sound is still very good a great improvement over normal dts i just found the bitstream signal to be slightly better and worth the extra money for the ep35 and sony s350

i might not get a s350 still undecided between the sony s350, s550 and the panasonic bd35

 

[lee37]

You can't get 50% of DTS HD Master Audio, because, as far as I'm aware, half doesn't fit happily on a Blu-Ray alongside a decent video transfer.

after just checking the national treasure 2 disc if they cut out all the rubbish they put on a disc i think it might fit.

5 trailers, extras, directors cut soundtrack

another example first sunday blu ray true hd - ac3 core +hd data 48khz

+ ac3 sound track + spanish true hd soundtrack and 4 other languages

total size 29gb loads of space left

an extra disc of extras would be better instead why buy into a new format and have to compromise

they should do 2 disc sets look at hd dvd for example transformers, matrix both 2 discs no problems i know its slight different but if they can do it.

like i said earlier wait for the re release ultimate hd blu ray 2 disc set

 

[professorhat]

Okay, been doing some research into this this afternoon and have to admit my head hurts a little now! One thing I did come across which was quoted from Dolby's website was this:
16 bit TrueHD tracks compress to around 1.4 Mbps with 3 Mbps peaks.
24 bit tracks compress to around 3.4 Mbps average with 5 Mbps peaks.
So this suggests the figures you are getting are actually spot on for Dolby TrueHD soundtracks when used on Blu-Ray if they were encoded at 16bit (NB - this is completely down to the movie studio who make the disc). It would seem that the Dolby TrueHD standard has been developed to support up to 14 audio channels of 24-bit/96KHz PCM audio (Source here), but the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD standards limited this to eight to provide 7.1 channels on their discs. Thus the discrepancy between the figure you're getting and the theoretical maximum bitrate I would suggest lies in those extra 6 channels which are unused within Blu-Ray.
The bitrate you are seeing will change as the soundtrack is encoded. Quiet moments of the film will have a much lower bitrate as there is much less sound information to be sent out. Louder more complex moments should see the bitrate pushed up to the higher levels as shown above. So more than likely, when you start a film, you'll see quite a low bitrate as most starts to a film are generally quite quiet.
Hopefully this answers the questions you had and sorts out why you're not seeing 18Mbps bitrates i.e. it is as I thought initially, the Dolby TrueHD standard was not developed only with Blu-Ray in mind and thus you are getting the most that is possible from a Blu-Ray disc which is still a good 10 - 15 times more (if the disc has an uncompressed PCM soundtrack for example) than you were getting with standard DVD soundtracks.

 

[lee37]

right i understand that( and ive asked this question on a thread before with no definite answer)

1) is there any signal/quality loss when a component (ps3) converts a sound from true hd, dts ma to LPCM

2) is a bitstream true hd signal better than a true hd - LPCM signal (i think it is but it could be my hearing)

3) which is best to decode the sound amp or player (referring to sony 820 and sony s350)

4) im ordering tonight maybe but which does everyone think is best sony s350, samsiung 1500, panasonic bd 30, bd35 or should i wait for the sony s550 which i have seen for £300 out on 18 sept apparently

5) just read this about the sony s350 from superfi (DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are output as bitstream data via HDMI, TrueHD can be converted and output as Linear PCM) so whats the point when about half of my blur ray tiltes are either lpcm or true hd. i have about 140.

but in the what hifi review it said "All HD audio formats can be output as Bitstream" which is correct

ive probably answered some of these questions myself but its good to have another opinion

 

[Anonymous]

I like this Topic but alot of you have not mentioned the Best sound format and thats PCM , I find it alot better than True HD and DTS HD , Give it ago and tell me what you think , I find the sound alot better. Its a shame that alot of the Blu-Ray Movies dont use PCM 🙁

You only have to listen to The Fifth Element on Blu-Ray to hear this Ace Sound format.

 

[Anonymous]

If I'm not mistaken I think prof mentioned this on his last post and I also posed the question on my first post. But yes you're correct Uncompressed PCM does top the lot.

 

[professorhat]

lee37:1) is there any signal/quality loss when a component (ps3) converts a sound from true hd, dts ma to LPCM
In theory, there shouldn't be no.
lee37:2) is a bitstream true hd signal better than a true hd - LPCM signal (i think it is but it could be my hearing)
Again, in theory, no, all that's happening is the signal is being decoded (or unzipped) at a different place. However, I know many people say that it sounds better if the amp decodes the signal when given a player which has the ability to do both. I haven't had the chance to listen to this myself yet.
lee37:3) which is best to decode the sound amp or player (referring to sony 820 and sony s350)
See above - I recommend once you get your player testing this for yourself and using the one you prefer (if indeed there is any noticeable difference).
lee37:4) im ordering tonight maybe but which does everyone think is best sony s350, samsiung 1500, panasonic bd 30, bd35 or should i wait for the sony s550 which i have seen for £300 out on 18 sept apparently
Look out for WHF's test of Blu-Ray players coming in the next issue.
jasonsony735:I like this Topic but alot of you have not mentioned the Best sound format and thats PCM , I find it alot better than True HD and DTS HD , Give it ago and tell me what you think , I find the sound alot better. Its a shame that alot of the Blu-Ray Movies dont use PCM 🙁

You only have to listen to The Fifth Element on Blu-Ray to hear this Ace Sound format.
Well, as I've said, in theory, there shouldn't be any difference between a soundtrack included on a disc which is left as uncompressed PCM and the same soundtrack which has been encoded in Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio as both of these formats use lossless compression (same as FLAC or Apple Lossless in the audio world).
However, many people have stated that on a track with both Dolby and PCM, they believe the PCM soundtrack sounds better. Certainly on my own investigation last night, the 300 soundtrack has both and the PCM soundtrack certainly was initially louder - whether it was better or not I'm not sure as I didn't have time to do a big comparison.
From my research, there are a lot of conspiracy theories raging around, some people suggesting that the reason the PCM soundtrack is better is because the studios are creating the Dolby TrueHD soundtracks from a different master than the uncompressed PCM soundtracks. Why they would do this escapes me, but that's an explanation that's being touted around!
My take - this could easily start to get as silly and annoying as the many cable debates that go on. At the end of the day, go with the soundtrack and also the method of decoding you prefer (i.e. on the player or the amp) and don't worry about what anyone else says!