I understand that sound quality increases with price - but this is also limited. Please convince me that if I buy not less than a 1000 $ TT with a 200 $ cart it's going to sound so worse than a 20.000 $ up decks...? Is this really so ?
Prices
- Thread starter stereoman
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jjbomber
Well-known member
stereoman said:
Unfortunately I have $20 ears, so it won't matter! If you asked a professional recording musician to listen to their own album on both, he will spot huge differences. For us mere mortals that won't be the case.
What are the Leema speakers like?
That's a difficult one as I've never heard a $20K deck. But cartridges are a different proposition, a $200 vs $700 cartridge on the same turntable then yes you will hear a distinct difference in presentation. Is a $700 cartridge on a $1000 turntable a waste... yes, in as much as it would probably sound infinitely better on a $4000 turntable.
DougK said:
Ok if I buy a 200$ cart on my deck will it make sense or not at all ? You suggest than expensive carts should go with expensive decks then ?
jjbomber said:
First of all. True, musicians probably will notice (hear) the difference straight off on both decks.Interesting but still wondering....the difference must really be subtle (?) As to the Leema speakers....careful you enter my "best-personal-speaker-area-so-far". Great speakers. Most important things - extremely fast, very revealing treble - timber, violins - for example - offer very thruthful reproduction. Monitor like sound with tight quality bass rather than amount. This is the huge drawback for some bass lovers but one needs to be careful here - the bass is not lacking - it is a very precise monitor bass. But if you have a large room it's better to buy Leema Xone. After first firing up you get an impression of a very professional studio like speaker. A way class above other medium range speakers. A point of attention here - they got strong magnets ( each speaker handles 200W for a 10cm radius ! ) and it takes ages to loose the cones. But once they are loose - even better sounding classy speaker. On top of that very nice looking. Better than in pics. It is definitely not a speaker for everyone so either you'll love it (monitor reproduction) or not at all.
P.S. They do not belong to the most ambient like speakers and soundstage is good but not so wide ! Again like in monitor sound.
jjbomber
Well-known member
stereoman said:
I have read several glowing reviews on them, so I thought I would seek out an owners viewpoint. They also say they are bomb-proof in build quality. Or child-proof as we say in hi-fi land. One to add to the list when I get upgradeitis.
jjbomber said:
I wrote here some day ago that no matter what - if any audiophile has a chance, they should have a listen to Cyrus/Leema set so that they would know what the fuss is about.
The only way you will be convinced (or not), is to hear it for yourself...as it is doubtful that anyone here can do so from behind a keyboard.
I haven't been into TTs for over 25 years....but all I can say is that an LP12/Ittok/Asak was much better than a Rega Planar 3/RB300/R100, which was much better than a Trio KD 1033B + Ortofon FF15E
I haven't been into TTs for over 25 years....but all I can say is that an LP12/Ittok/Asak was much better than a Rega Planar 3/RB300/R100, which was much better than a Trio KD 1033B + Ortofon FF15E
CnoEvil said:
Yes I mean I can understand that if I buy an Accuphase CD player - it's packed with spotless circuits and dac chips so that the price is much increased. But I do not really get where the price goes in TT costing 20K up ? I know they are made of fine stuff but price / sound ratio raises my eyebrows a 5K vs 25K TT how much better a 25K TT is going to sound ? Again, it is so difficult to describe something without hearing and that is also true.
stereoman said:
IME. Getting great sound from a TT is very expensive, due to the difficulty of accurately pulling information from a groove in rotating vinyl, with a needle. It is the one area where the extra investment gives decent dividents...which means it can swallow up a bigger percentage of the system cost. In comparison, digital, with its 1s and 0s, is "wee buns".
stereoman said:
Your current TT comes fitted with an AT95E cart, standalone price for the cart is currently approx £30 and your TT approx £300, therefore cart value to TT value ratio is 10%. Personally I would push this this to 50% max and no more, therefore £150 for a cartridge. I have performed something similar with my TT where the fitted cart is approx 50% of the TT price and it worked for me but I personally wouldn't go any further up the cartridge foodchain as I don't believe the arm or TT would do any further upgrades justice.
But, and it's a large but, I am under no illusions that my cartridge would not sound infinitely better on a £4K TT. It's your choice and your money in the end.
I do get what you're saying. It's true that better engineering is where it's at with record players, and better engineering doesn't come cheap. That said, if you take apart a poverty spec Linn Majik LP12, do you find £3k's worth of engineering? Really the answer is no, Take away the plinth which is probably the most expensive part and you're left with raw materials worth a couple of hundred quid at best that can be manufacturered in minutes using jigs they have had over 45 years to perfect. After that let's be generous put aside maybe an hour to assemble and calibrate it. Have we reached £500? I doubt it. Let's double that anyway to cover the additional marketing overheads and to get a nice round figure, and you're staring at a £1000 turntable. So why is it 3x more?
It's 3x more because that's the price people are prepared to pay for its engineering and sound quality. It's a marketing philosophy that's polar opposite to the one which keeps prices rock bottom at the lower end of the market, where it's all about giving consumers as much as you can for dirt cheap. And when you look at models that cost £30k or more, you can spend the rest of your days trying to figure where all the extra money's gone, but you will still fail. because you won't find anything which materially justifies the price. They cost that much simply because that's the price the lucky few are prepared to pay for the last word in build quality, which is totally unrelated to ther material cost.
It's 3x more because that's the price people are prepared to pay for its engineering and sound quality. It's a marketing philosophy that's polar opposite to the one which keeps prices rock bottom at the lower end of the market, where it's all about giving consumers as much as you can for dirt cheap. And when you look at models that cost £30k or more, you can spend the rest of your days trying to figure where all the extra money's gone, but you will still fail. because you won't find anything which materially justifies the price. They cost that much simply because that's the price the lucky few are prepared to pay for the last word in build quality, which is totally unrelated to ther material cost.
It is interesting that you have picked the one component in a hi-fi system where the law of diminishing returns takes an awfully long time to kick in.
My last serious turntable/arm/cartridge would cost slightly in excess of £15k, very close to £20k if you add in the ARC phono stage, these are at current prices. At the time, about 20 years ago, we sold this SME combination and the similarly priced Roksan TMS setup on a regular basis and we did so by demonstrating their superiority over any competing models.
Even then, these players were expensive and most found the cost prohibitive, but a fair few did not and were prepared to pay for something that good. It is unfortunate that really good players have become so ridiculously expensive, so much so that few entusiasts get to hear them in a decent environment.
Anyone who has the interest and knows how to set up a player properly, could do an awful lot worse than to check out a Gyrodec SE/RB330/ATOC9, which can be had for about £2,500 and in todays market, is outstanding value.
My last serious turntable/arm/cartridge would cost slightly in excess of £15k, very close to £20k if you add in the ARC phono stage, these are at current prices. At the time, about 20 years ago, we sold this SME combination and the similarly priced Roksan TMS setup on a regular basis and we did so by demonstrating their superiority over any competing models.
Even then, these players were expensive and most found the cost prohibitive, but a fair few did not and were prepared to pay for something that good. It is unfortunate that really good players have become so ridiculously expensive, so much so that few entusiasts get to hear them in a decent environment.
Anyone who has the interest and knows how to set up a player properly, could do an awful lot worse than to check out a Gyrodec SE/RB330/ATOC9, which can be had for about £2,500 and in todays market, is outstanding value.
abacus
Well-known member
As always it’s the law of diminishing returns, so yes an expensive deck will sound better than a medium deck, but there will be nowhere near the difference between the expensive and medium deck as there will be between the entry and medium deck.
When upgrading your turntable system, always change the cartridge first (Even if it costs more than you paid for the deck) as this makes the biggest difference, then when you do upgrade the deck you will feel like it is money well spent. (Do it the other way round and you will disappointed with the results, and then question whether it is worth changing the cartridge)
My favourite is still the Mitchell Gyrodeck, SME Series IV arm and Ortofon 2M Black cartridge.
Bill
When upgrading your turntable system, always change the cartridge first (Even if it costs more than you paid for the deck) as this makes the biggest difference, then when you do upgrade the deck you will feel like it is money well spent. (Do it the other way round and you will disappointed with the results, and then question whether it is worth changing the cartridge)
My favourite is still the Mitchell Gyrodeck, SME Series IV arm and Ortofon 2M Black cartridge.
Bill
abacus said:
If you have a preference for moving coil cartridges (as I do), then somewhat different rules apply. The qualities required of the player, both turntable and arm, by a good mc cartridge are much higher than those required by an mm device so it is prudent to sort out the player first.
Plus 1, for the Gyrodec combo, it is one of the very few 'classic' players that have maintained a sensible price though the current price of the Series IV is pretty eyewatering. By your own (better cartridge first) logic, I would suggest the Gyro/RB330/OC9 combo, mentioned above, to be a more capable setup, much cheaper too.
I find it a shame that few enthusiasts get to hear players of this standard, let alone genuine high-end models.
Al ears
Well-known member
davedotco said:
I would agree. The IV arm is now considerably more expensive than it was and although the Rega RB 300 series would suffice I would be looking at the SME 309 tonearm on a deck of the calibre if funds allowed, an certainly the Ortofon 2M Bronze rsther than Black, but thats personal preference. The OC9, although excellent, can now be bettered for slightly more money I feel, or less if going moving magnet, and the employment of a low output moving coil means greater expense in the need for a good quality phono preamp to be purchased.
Damage the stylus and you are scuppered. It's a hefty outlay for a new cartridge. ;-)
abacus said:
I think it's more than that. I think there just comes a point where a product is a particular price (let's say £20k) for no other reason than £20k is judged to be a reasonable price for the build and performance. I have seen expensive turntables, they're built exceedingly well, but they're not built £20k well when that same price buys you a car. Of course one could say they have to be disproportionately over-priced because they maybe only sell a dozen a year, but of course that's a catch 22 situation. The real reason is the perceived value and market forces
Again going back to Linn as an example, I remember my dad saying the Linn LP12 was £98 brand new when he bought his TD160 for £79, which equates to about £1,200 in today's money. But Linn aren't going to charge £1,200 for an LP12 when that same money spent elsewhere buys highly-rated turntables that look like they were nailed together on a Formica worktop, so they double the price a bit, and add some more. And who can blame them.
nopiano
Well-known member
Some very good points already made. I’d simply add that when you do a bit of maths and start to appreciate how minute the vibrations are that convey fine details from an LP to a cartridge, the logic of superb engineering and isolation seem warranted.
Conversely, the Compact Disc supposedly yields its 0s and 1s perfectly even from a £15 computer drive (as used in £1000+ rippers), so justifying several thousands on the same seems ridiculous. But then when you hear exceptional products like the DCS Vivaldi, even that starts to make sense, at least in the sound quality.
Conversely, the Compact Disc supposedly yields its 0s and 1s perfectly even from a £15 computer drive (as used in £1000+ rippers), so justifying several thousands on the same seems ridiculous. But then when you hear exceptional products like the DCS Vivaldi, even that starts to make sense, at least in the sound quality.
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