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Power cable

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shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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ellisdj said:
Shadders all the cables for test are coiled - both sets of wirewold are coiled also

Please for once - just take it for what it is - do the listening tests, listen to what they guy says and listen to the full video without shutting it off because its not technical enough for you.

Its very basic - obviously intended to be - so please just humour us and watch it with decent sound so you can hear it
Hi,

The claim is, that cables have a characteristic sound. Coiling up a cable will increase the cable inductance significantly compared to its self inductance.

If you believe that cables do sound different, then coiling them will make the test null and void.

With regards to the technical aspects - too much is "hinted" at, with no backup with the very science that they use in that "hint".

Without a paper presented which can be repeated independently, the demonstration is just a marketing exercise.

If you want to believe what is said - then ok - you could take a blind test to confirm your beliefs.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

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Nov 19, 2009
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Vladimir said:
Would vibrations from the speakers induce such an effect?
Hi,

I would state no, since the energy required to produce the frictional forces between the conductor and insulation will not even reach the level of the table in the link i provided, hence nanoamps of current is even more unlikely.

It will need to be tested - to prove/disprove that the effect exists in any significance - but, one indication is that i have not seen a cable company refer to this as the reason for their cables sound different/better. Cannot speak for other cables, but QED 79 strand sheath is rather wedded to the conductor - so movement will be extremely small to cause any friction.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

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Dec 11, 2008
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Is a whole section of the video talking about blind tests shadders. Please watch it all as asked with good sound quality - you must have a smart phone and headphones of half decent quality and then we can discuss it better
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Interesting discussion here.

Forget the whole notion of "coiling," ok? The straighter the cable run, the better it will act like an antenna. If anything a coil in the wire will act as a choke and will block RF pickup... except that the size of coil you'll be dealing with isn't sufficient to help.
 

ellisdj

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There must be vibration in all cables. There is a big amount of pressure in my room when I play music and what makes a long piece of stiff cable impervias to vibration from sound waves?? I always think of a tin can telephone

Vibration enough to cause tribo whats it called?
 

shadders

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Nov 19, 2009
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ellisdj said:
Is a whole section of the video talking about blind tests shadders. Please watch it all as asked with good sound quality - you must have a smart phone and headphones of half decent quality and then we can discuss it better
Hi,

As above - i cannot state any changes without being there. The video was cut etc., and levels seemed different too - so i cannot state any differences.

The test is flawed as other statements i have made - so this is a moot point.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
Vladimir said:
Interesting discussion here.

Forget the whole notion of "coiling," ok? The straighter the cable run, the better it will act like an antenna. If anything a coil in the wire will act as a choke and will block RF pickup... except that the size of coil you'll be dealing with isn't sufficient to help.
Hi,

Antenna can be straight bits of wire or coiled (helical aerials as per CB radio types), microstrips, arrays etc.

The inductance of QED 79 strand is 0.66uH per metre.

The coils in the demonstration - due to the coiling, will exhibit 47uH of inductance - this is approximately 71x more inductance. So, of course, the cable may sound different to a straight cable run.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
There must be vibration in all cables. There is a big amount of pressure in my room when I play music and what makes a long piece of stiff cable impervias to vibration from sound waves?? I always think of a tin can telephone

Vibration enough to cause tribo whats it called?
Hi,

The vibration has to cause friction between the insulator and the metal conductor. The insulator is molded to the conductor - so vibration will be small as the cable is behind the projected music, usually shielded by equipment, and the shear effect caused by the vibration is minimal.

You will need a materials science person to provide a definitive answer for this.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
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shadders said:
Vladimir said:
Interesting discussion here.

Forget the whole notion of "coiling," ok? The straighter the cable run, the better it will act like an antenna. If anything a coil in the wire will act as a choke and will block RF pickup... except that the size of coil you'll be dealing with isn't sufficient to help.
Hi,

Antenna can be straight bits of wire or coiled (helical aerials as per CB radio types), microstrips, arrays etc.

The inductance of QED 79 strand is 0.66uH per metre.

The coils in the demonstration - due to the coiling, will exhibit 47uH of inductance - this is approximately 71x more inductance. So, of course, the cable may sound different to a straight cable run.

Regards,

Shadders.
Is it possible they have rigged the test by adjusting the total inductance for each cable?
 

ellisdj

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Vlad its possible they have rigged the video in post production

But its also possible they didnt do any of that.

I suppose they were thinking how do we show the cables we are changing so that people dont think we are doing skulduggery where you cant see us i.e cables along the floor
 

ellisdj

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Video is counter intuitive to wirewold because if you dont want to spend big bucks on their cables you dont need to with active speakers.

If it costs 1800+ sovs to get a more direct connection like sound thats a big chunk to lay down on actives.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
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18,670
Vladimir said:
shadders said:
Vladimir said:
Interesting discussion here.

Forget the whole notion of "coiling," ok? The straighter the cable run, the better it will act like an antenna. If anything a coil in the wire will act as a choke and will block RF pickup... except that the size of coil you'll be dealing with isn't sufficient to help.
Hi,

Antenna can be straight bits of wire or coiled (helical aerials as per CB radio types), microstrips, arrays etc.

The inductance of QED 79 strand is 0.66uH per metre.

The coils in the demonstration - due to the coiling, will exhibit 47uH of inductance - this is approximately 71x more inductance. So, of course, the cable may sound different to a straight cable run.

Regards,

Shadders.
Is it possible they have rigged the test by adjusting the total inductance for each cable?
Hi,

The presenter mentions EM theory - regarding separating the cable conductors - so he will be aware of coiling a cable creates an inductor. Further, he will know that the coiled inductance will be significantly greater than the self inductance of the cable.

Whether the test was rigged or not is unknown, but this obvious error, is worrying at least - they do know better. So reasons to why they did it, i do not know.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
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That seeing as the test in the video appears so conclusive the manufacturer, or indeed an owner, of those cables hasn't hotfooted over to James Randi's to claim the $1 million?
 

ellisdj

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Shadders its clearly so you can see the full test nothing is hidden.

What about the third test of the first set of demos where on side the cables are together the other apart?

They are only apart a few inchs and that makes the system sound like its out of phase/ underwater??
 

ellisdj

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the one thing out of place to me the zip chord looks longer than both wirewold cables but that could be me seeing it wrong - hard to know for sure.

What that matter ?
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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Wouldn't triboelectric effect be much much worse in actives since the amp is pounded by the drivers inside a chamber?
 

shadders

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Nov 19, 2009
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ellisdj said:
Shadders its clearly so you can see the full test nothing is hidden.

What about the third test of the first set of demos where on side the cables are together the other apart?

They are only apart a few inchs and that makes the system sound like its out of phase/ underwater??
Hi,

The presenter mentions EM theory, so they will be aware that coiling the speaker cable will increase the speaker cables inductance. They will also be aware that the coiling of the speaker cable will SIGNIFICANTLY change the inductance of the speaker cable - and they will be aware that this change will be 50x to 100x more significant.

The above is the problem - and it invalidates the test.

The other cables being near are a secondary effect - they will make it worse, but not significantly compared ot the coiling aspect.

You then have to answer this question.

If the cables sound different, and the coiling will change the electrical properties (inductance) by 50x to 100x (this is an extreme change), and they never commented on this change in sound (assuming they KNOW the sound of their own cables), then do cables actually sound different ?

Can you see this - they mess up, and don't notice any change in sound. (putting it bluntly).

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

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To a degree yes but in the real world thats a demo rig they have to take with them.

How could they easily display all that cable in straight lines? - plus all the cables are coiled. So its not 1 coiled all the other straight so all the tests share that same issue and so its a constant yet you can still hear the difference on the you tube video which is a nearfield recording before the room acoustics mulla the sound.
Thoughts
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
To a degree yes but in the real world thats a demo rig they have to take with them.

How could they easily display all that cable in straight lines? - plus all the cables are coiled. So its not 1 coiled all the other straight so all the tests share that same issue and so its a constant yet you can still hear the difference on the you tube video which is a nearfield recording before the room acoustics mulla the sound. Thoughts
Hi,

Please everyone, do not take offence at this next sentence.

They royally f*cked up the demonstration and did not notice any change in sound.

Can you not see that they didn't even notice the error or change in sound - and these were the designers and experts.

One cable, from a manufacturer to another, varies of the order of 2x, and people hear differences.

They created a demonstration with a variation of the order of 50x to 100x because they messed up, and even they did not notice the change in sound.

So does this change/difference actually exist ?

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
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How do you know thats not how they designed the test.

All the test cables are coiled

They are not testing sound quality - only rate of change

Rate of change measured quasi anachoic so you hear best part of the original signal not the room echo.

The test is pretty fair for all cables.

Mics not moved

Volume not changed

Differences clear as day
 

Vladimir

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Dec 26, 2013
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shadders said:
ellisdj said:
To a degree yes but in the real world thats a demo rig they have to take with them.

How could they easily display all that cable in straight lines? - plus all the cables are coiled. So its not 1 coiled all the other straight so all the tests share that same issue and so its a constant yet you can still hear the difference on the you tube video which is a nearfield recording before the room acoustics mulla the sound. Thoughts
Hi,

Please everyone, do not take offence at this next sentence.

They royally f*cked up the demonstration and did not notice any change in sound.

Can you not see that they didn't even notice the error or change in sound - and these were the designers and experts.

One cable, from a manufacturer to another, varies of the order of 2x, and people hear differences.

They created a demonstration with a variation of the order of 50x to 100x because they messed up, and even they did not notice the change in sound.

So does this change/difference actually exist ?

Regards,

Shadders.
But I hearz difference on youtubz.

 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
89
18,670
ellisdj said:
How do you know thats not how they designed the test.

All the test cables are coiled

They are not testing sound quality - only rate of change

Rate of change measured quasi anachoic so you hear best part of the original signal not the room echo.

The test is pretty fair for all cables.

Mics not moved

Volume not changed

Differences clear as day
Hi,

If someone changed your cables you state you would know instantly that they had been changed ?

So why not the designers, demonstrators, testers of the cable that they sell, not know immediately that their cable sounded different to usual ?

You cannot claim that a cable sounds like X, Y Z etc., and then not notice the change.

Read what i have written again - they effectively created a new cable - AND DID NOT NOTICE THE CHANGE IN SOUND.

It really is that simple.

Rgards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

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Dec 11, 2008
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Read what I have written - they might well have known and noticed the change to their cables same as the zip cord.

But that change is the same to all of them as they are all coiled - so they are all fairly tested and recorded.

Plus you have to think the whole point of the demo is comparing a direct connection to a cable.

So by coiling their cables that actually making them sound not as designed so for all intensive purposes doing themselves out of a promotion opportunity to say look our cables sound as good as a direct connection.

But thats not the whole point.

Plus there is no point doing a sound quality test in that room - its horrendous and impossible to do it for that many people spread out.

Its more a simple and small demo system then can pack in the boot of a car and still demonstrate their point which they do extremely convincingly.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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Read what I have written - they might well have known and noticed the change to their cables same as the zip cord.

But that change is the same to all of them as they are all coiled - so they are all fairly tested and recorded.

Plus you have to think the whole point of the demo is comparing a direct connection to a cable.

So by coiling their cables that actually making them sound not as designed so for all intensive purposes doing themselves out of a promotion opportunity to say look our cables sound as good as a direct connection.

But thats not the whole point.

Plus there is no point doing a sound quality test in that room - its horrendous and impossible to do it for that many people spread out.

Its more a simple and small demo system then can pack in the boot of a car and still demonstrate their point which they do extremely convincingly.
 

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