Power cable

[andyjm]

Well of course there will be radio frequency noise on your mains supply on top of the 50hz 240 volts. Does he think we're dumb and we don't know that? The live wires feeding your equipment from the nearest sub-station will act like antenna. So what?

If it's an issue for anyone's system buy some £5.86 ferrite rings.

You missed the point Lindseyt he attaches the cable (make shift radio aerial) to the earth socket of the plug. Surely earth should ground the signal so there is no radio signal? Not amplify it and make the signal stronger

You think a ferrite would fix that?

Ellisdj,

If the building was wired correctly, then the DC resistance to ground from the earth pin on a socket should be very low. The same would be true of 50Hz AC, the path to ground should be low impedance - that's how a safety electrical earth works.

This however would not be true of higher frequencies. Wire has inductance, and an earth wire meandering around a building may have appreciable inductance. This means the high frequency impedance to earth may be much higher than the DC resistance - hence the earth pin won't ground HF signals.

.....and yes, a ferrite on the wire close to the device being powered would be a very good way of getting rid of HF noise.

 

[lindsayt]

You missed the point Lindseyt he attaches the cable (make shift radio aerial) to the earth socket of the plug. Surely earth should ground the signal so there is no radio signal? Not amplify it and make the signal stronger

You think a ferrite would fix that?

So the Earth wiring in that building (and probably most others) acts as an antenna and is poor at grounding radio frequencies. What's that got to do with whether any power cable is worth buying or not?

It's non sequitor marketing. Just because the earth wiring in a building acts as an antenna, doesn't mean to say that anyone should or shouldn't buy the power leads from that particular manufacturer.

A ferrite would help to reduce RFI. It probably wouldn't eliminate it altogether.

But then how big a deal is RFI in most people's hi-fi when compared to the quality and suitability of their speaker drivers and cabinets?

 

[ellisdj]

So how is high freq noise dissipated / dealt with within a device? Not using ferrite.

Is it not pushed to ground via earth or sometimes earthed by the device itself via the chassis for example.

Thats how shielding in cables work do they not?

So if any chunk of metal acts as an antennae our aluminim steel or copper components must have a similar effect to that of a cable in terms of picking up high freq noise??

So are they the best ways to dissipate the noise?
It has to go somewhere?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Electricity will, given a chance, want to travel to the actual earth by the most direct route. house's particular earthing arrangements this main terminal connects either back to your electricity board's earth, or in some houses connects to an earthing rod which is buried deeply in the ground(earth) -Main equipotential bonding of metal services. Links water and gas pipes, central heating etc. to the main earthing terminal. All domestic wiring circuits have an earth cable going back to earth . (as part of the "Twin and Earth" cable). These connect back to your consumer unit which connects to the main earth terminal. i copied this from a housing site about electricity in your home .

also your amp has filters to block stuff out but see by the video that was posted its still possable to get noise but the audioquest unit he was talking about is £9000 *shok*

 

[ellisdj]

My understanding is the signal will follow the path of least resistance

Therefore if our earth in our buildong is a path of higher resistance the noise will find another path and create a loop and pass from common mode to differential mode noise which is invasive?

Thats probably very crude explanation

 

[Blacksabbath25]

My understanding is the signal will follow the path of least resistance

Therefore if our earth in our buildong is a path of higher resistance the noise will find another path and create a loop and pass from common mode to differential mode noise which is invasive?

Thats probably very crude explanation

its something i do not fully understand at the this time without looking into it more

 

[andyjm]

So how is high freq noise dissipated / dealt with within a device? Not using ferrite.

Is it not pushed to ground via earth or sometimes earthed by the device itself via the chassis for example.

Thats how shielding in cables work do they not?

So if any chunk of metal acts as an antennae our aluminim steel or copper components must have a similar effect to that of a cable in terms of picking up high freq noise??

So are they the best ways to dissipate the noise? It has to go somewhere?

Ellisdj,

I am not sure you have got this quite right.

The metal enclosure of an amp (or whatever) forms what is called a faraday cage, a conductive box that keeps EMI out. Clearly, a cable breaches this cage, and can bring inteference along with the wanted mains. What you need is a filter just inside the box that filters out any unwanted noise. Fortunately, equipment has this, its called a power supply. The transformer and capacitors in a typical power supply make an excellent low pass filter. Add a couple of small ferrites, a cap or two and maybe a voltage dependent resistor (typical in the design of a power supply in an amp) and you have got a very good way of filtering out supply noise, just where it is needed.

Arguably, of much greater concern are the conductors that breach the faraday cage and are connected directly to the amplifier circuitry - the speaker cables.

If a short mains cable is picking up all sorts of EMI - think what a speaker cable is picking up - and it goes right to the audio stages. Good grief, I think we should be told, do I need shielded speaker cables..... ?

Edit: For what its worth, back in the day when I designed stuff, there was a range of natty little products that comprised a filter, IEC socket and fuse holder all in a shielded metal can. This didn't breach the faraday cage of the enclosure and put the filter just where it was needed at the point the mains entered the enclosure.

They still make them - google 'filtered IEC socket' - about 6 quid from Farnell. This will do a million times more than a fancy mains cable, and might actually work . Not that you will need it for a home amp, but handy if you are making sensitive test equipment.

 

[ellisdj]

So the chassis as a faraday cage which I am sure is no where near 100% effective at all freq where does the high freq energy go considering its bathed in high freq noise constantly - is it stored that doent sound good or does it look for a path to follow - we know it cant go ro ground via earth as the resistance is likely higher than a path round your system

Surely its better to have an active or low resistance path to ground or an man made equivalent for all your cables and chassis?

Surely thats a better solution in any way you look at it?

I know one high end speaker have this solution built on. Not sure name but I am pretty sure they use a big rectangle flat mid range driver if that helps ...

Edit Bybee sell speaker bullets for this reason I am pretty sure.

 

[Vladimir]

Even IF noise passed somehow through the PSU you will not hear different timbre on violins. It will be just noise added to the sound and you'll be able to hear it without music playing.

If you own an amp that passes audible HF noise to the speakers chuck it in the garbage bin and buy a £200 Denon instead.

 

[Oldphrt]

If you gaze at the schematic of almost every SS amp on the market you will see a stopper resistor of around 1k on the inputs and low value capacitors in the feedback loop. This restricts the amplification to the audio band and prevents directly connected and radiated RF from being amplified.

 

[Electro]

they used to say that anything that costs £2000 was high end but this day and age your probably looking at £10.000 to be classed as high end

Wrong metric.

High end starts at 150 kgs total system weight.

As a very sweeping generalisation. There are exceptions.

Mine is well over 100kg does that count .*biggrin*

 

[Electro]

So how is high freq noise dissipated / dealt with within a device? Not using ferrite.

Is it not pushed to ground via earth or sometimes earthed by the device itself via the chassis for example.

Thats how shielding in cables work do they not?

So if any chunk of metal acts as an antennae our aluminim steel or copper components must have a similar effect to that of a cable in terms of picking up high freq noise??

So are they the best ways to dissipate the noise? It has to go somewhere?

Ellisdj,

I am not sure you have got this quite right.

The metal enclosure of an amp (or whatever) forms what is called a faraday cage, a conductive box that keeps EMI out. Clearly, a cable breaches this cage, and can bring inteference along with the wanted mains. What you need is a filter just inside the box that filters out any unwanted noise. Fortunately, equipment has this, its called a power supply. The transformer and capacitors in a typical power supply make an excellent low pass filter. Add a couple of small ferrites, a cap or two and maybe a voltage dependent resistor (typical in the design of a power supply in an amp) and you have got a very good way of filtering out supply noise, just where it is needed.

Arguably, of much greater concern are the conductors that breach the faraday cage and are connected directly to the amplifier circuitry - the speaker cables.

If a short mains cable is picking up all sorts of EMI - think what a speaker cable is picking up - and it goes right to the audio stages. Good grief, I think we should be told, do I need shielded speaker cables..... ?

Edit: For what its worth, back in the day when I designed stuff, there was a range of natty little products that comprised a filter, IEC socket and fuse holder all in a shielded metal can. This didn't breach the faraday cage of the enclosure and put the filter just where it was needed at the point the mains entered the enclosure.

They still make them - google 'filtered IEC socket' - about 6 quid from Farnell. This will do a million times more than a fancy mains cable, and might actually work . Not that you will need it for a home amp, but handy if you are making sensitive test equipment.

The only problem with these is that they tend to explode shooting burning smelly goo everywhere not to mention the smoke.

I have personal experience of this and if I now had a piece of kit with one fitted I would remove it and replace it with a non filtered socket.

 

[Andrewjvt]

they used to say that anything that costs £2000 was high end but this day and age your probably looking at £10.000 to be classed as high end 

Wrong metric.

High end starts at 150 kgs total system weight.

As a very sweeping generalisation. There are exceptions.

Mine is well over 100kg does that count .*biggrin*

Your only 66% keep trying haha

 

[SemiChronic]

560+ Posts! . . So whats the verdict? Are we all mentally ill for believing or not believing?

 

[Vladimir]

560+ Posts! . . So whats the verdict? Are we all mentally ill for believing or not believing?

No one ever went to the asylum for not believing in something.

 

[Electro]

checked some bryston, accuphase, bel canto and gryphon beat them all so far.. and the raidho's are really something..

Don't forget these. *biggrin* *good*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jB3uK2taWY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiR0G4H4L4

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders managed to swerve admitting to being wrong

 

[Infiniteloop]

560+ Posts! . . So whats the verdict? Are we all mentally ill for believing or not believing?

Perhaps Bertrand Russell sums it up best:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts."

 

[Vladimir]

560+ Posts! . . So whats the verdict? Are we all mentally ill for believing or not believing?

Perhaps Bertrand Russell sums it up best:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts."

He was a *****.

 

[shadders]

Shadders managed to swerve admitting to being wrong

Hi,

Where was i wrong ?.

Thanks and regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Come off it Shadders there was no mention in either video of them discovering a new form of noise.

You owe me an I was wrong on that one

 

[shadders]

Come off it Shadders there was no mention in either video of them discovering a new form of noise.

You owe me an I was wrong on that one

Hi,

In the video at 01:46 the person states "it is not jitter"

At 01:55 the person states "distortion mechanism no one has seen before".

In the marketing paper it states "Once the two plots are overlaid it becomes clear that the player’s output differs quite significantly from the original signal, leading it at some points, lagging at others"

The cause of this is jitter - variation in clock timing.

From wikipedia :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter

It states :

"Random Jitter, also called Gaussian jitter, is unpredictable electronic timing noise".

Jitter is timing noise - which is noise.

I have seen no scientific papers on this new noise as stated in the video or the marketing sheet. Since 2009 when this revelation was provided, i have not seen any mention of this new noise and how to correct, in any hifi press.

Scientific papers are published in journals of scientific bodies, and are peer reviewed. This new noise has not had this scrutiny.

Jitter is noise.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

There is no mention of a new discovery of noise shadders man your unbelievable.

It would have taken less time out of your life to just go oh yeah got that one wrong than all the effort to come up with that elaborate extension of the reality to try and save some face when its obvious thats what you have done ..... funny

 

[ellisdj]

They say this has nothing to do with jitter - firstly which you just quoted so why are you then using jitter as an example of noise?

You probably didnt watch it all just the first 2 minutes.

They go on to show how they mesured the output of players looked at it in a new way.
Then created an algorithm to protray that data in a certain way.

No mention of a new discovery of noise just a way of looking at the above.

No new form of noise discovered ever mentioned.

So you are doing your usual.

 

[shadders]

There is no mention of a new discovery of noise shadders man your unbelievable.

It would have taken less time out of your life to just go oh yeah got that one wrong than all the effort to come up with that elaborate extension of the reality to try and save some face when its obvious thats what you have done ..... funny

Hi,

Jitter is noise - it is timing noise.

The term noise covers many aspects of issues in electronics - AWGN, 1/f noise, shot noise etc. Jitter is also noise - it is timing noise.

I do not understand why you believe sales people who sell products and provide no evidence of their claims, when on this forum, people (including myself) always provide scientific references supporting the statements being made.

Where have i got it wrong ?

Thanks and regards,

Shadders.